Why Hemalurgy isn't (widely) used Cosmere-wide

[Alfa]

We have WoB that Hemalurgy could be used on any planet in the cosmere. But, as far as we have seen, neither on Roshar, no on Nalthis, Sel, Threnody, First of the Sun there are any (native) hemalurgy users. But why is it so? Why doesn't anybody use this (incredibly powerfull) investiture source, moral left aside?

I have two possible explanations.

 

1) INTENT

 

To perform hemalurgy, you must stab someone with metal at the right point. The intetn can originate from you or from Ruin. I assume, that Ruin can't provide his Intent over the planets, since he was "trapped" by preservation for most of the time, and Sazed seems not to be the guy who likess people stabbing people. If Ruin would be free, than probably, any time a psycho-maniac would be stabbing two people in a row anywhere in the cosmere, the second one wouldn't die but stand up, spiked.

This seems to be an explanation, but not a complete one. There are people all around the Cosmere, who would be pretty much willing to provide the necessary intent. (Dahkor, to give a simple example). Also, there seem to be quite a share of worldhoppers, so it seems to be pretty strange if in the thousand years of the final empire this information had not been "leaked" from scadrial to other planets, since hemalurgy was never a very closely guarded state secret (compared to the Atium-cache, but I digress) - Kelsier proved that it's relatively simple to bring somebody inside the Steel Ministry, and the Obligators seemed to be the one who watched over the Kolosses. Anyway, the "Koloss-creating-recipe" was acessible enought to be picked up.
So thе lack of intent does not seem to be likely the only explanation.

 

2) FOCI

 

The focus on Scadrial is metal, and hemalaurgy works via metal. On Scadrial. Where I am not so sure, if it's metal on other planets. The focus on Sel seems to be "signs", the focus on Nalthis the command and the color, on Roshar there are either the sprens or the ten gemstones, and on First of the Sun it seems to be the Symbiosis between Birds and the worms. Honestly, i have no idea, what it's on threnody... Rules, perhaps?

IF (and that is a big assumption) you need to use the Focus of a planet to use hemalurgy there, there will come complications.
To use a sign to stab someone is still possible (paint or carve a sign on a spike) - but which sign? Sel being Sel, this sign should be precise to the milimeter. Would it be Scadrian metal-signs? Or something derived from Scadrian geography? Local symbols for metal? I don't have any real idea.
On the other planets everything seems to be even worse. How the colors do you stab someone with a command? Or with a color? Or do you have to stab someone with a colored spike and give a command, which attribute to steal (Your breath to mine, your [ATTRIBUTE] becomes mine) or somehting like this? Seems pretty difficult to find out, since colors aren't that clearly divided compared to metals and alloys.
Roshar is not as bad, but also has it's problems. It's pretty difficult to stab someone with a gemstone, if this is the focus, but it's still possible. (Diamond works pretty well as a knife, so you could improvise a spike with it). But my guess is, that not the gemstones are the focus on Roshar, but the Spren Also, you normally can't stab someone with a spren. Exception - shardblades, which seem to be invented for the case of stabbing something. My guess is, that living shardblades wouldn't allow hemalurgy, since it seems quite "dishonorable". But why not use dead shardblades? I guess, it has something to do with the fact, that a shardblade is a big investitural asset, and is put to better use as a weapon than as a hemalurgic spike. Also, it would look quite odd or awkward, if somebody would be walking with a two-meter-shardblade looking out of their body, assuming the "hemalurgical-spike-shardblade" won't cut through them and nobody would use the chance to pull it out.

First of the Sun? You can stab someone with a bird, if you try...but let's say that the level of magical awareness on F.o.t.S. is not that high and the birds to few. Also, the oddity problem would come up again - the bird is required to live to serve as a focus and...well, a inquisitor with living birds for eyes wouldn't look intimidating but hillarious.

Threnody solves itself, not only couldn't you use a rule (if it's the focus there) to stab someone, also stabbing is pretty strictly prohibited.

 

 

To sum it up: There are at least two reasons for the not-spreading of hemalurgy around the cosmere, the first of them the lack of intent, which doesn't seem to be enough but explains everything pretty canonical, the other - the difficulties with the foci, which seems to explain most of it, but works with a strong assumption

Edited May 8, 2016 by Alfa

[Voidus]

Well the main difficulty is knowledge, even if you did know about Hemalurgy (Which almost no one does), were willing to do so (Which is unlikely for most worldhoppers we know of) and found a suitable candidate, you'd have to actually know where to stab them and with what. That kind of knowledge renders it pretty much impossible to use. Sure a Worldhopper might have figured out the basics if they worldhopped to Scadrial and saw an Inquisitor but it'd be nigh impossible to actually use it in a meaningful way and even if you could it wouldn't be something you'd spread around.
Given the limited activity we've seen from worldhoppers it'd also be pretty difficult to tell if most of them were using Hemalurgy in any way and no one else could possibly provide the intent.

[Nashan’Elin]

I'd agree that bindpoints seem to be the limiting factor here. It's the thing that's unique to Hemalurgy, and even if someone knew of Hemalurgy, it's unlikely that they'd be able to learn the bindpoints for Surges, or Elantrian powers, and the other abilities.

[Argel]

It's also possible the worldhoppers have some kind of code of conduct, and Hemalurgy could be considered too extreme. At least for those that all hang out at the Restaurant at the end of the Cosmere (i.e. a hemalurgy free zone....).

[Alfa]

Why the bind-points for surges? Some people would think an army of Koloss as an asset, and this knowledge seems to be one which could be likely to leak.

[Argel]

More like the first "koloss" would kill its creator. TLR had the advantage of understanding what was going on, putting in safe guards. etc. that someone without that would not likely be prepared to deal with.

[Alfa]

More like the first "koloss" would kill its creator. TLR had the advantage of understanding what was going on, putting in safe guards. etc. that someone without that would not likely be prepared to deal with.

 

I guess if somebody would try to get the "coloss-creating-recipe" would learn the security measures even before the exact stabbing points.

[Yata]

First of all I don't think Hemalurgy may be used without Metal Spikes.

Anyway another problem is the metallurgy on other shardworld, many metal aren't know or usable easy.

 

About the "create a Koloss army".... how actually did you control them ?

[Alfa]

First of all I don't think Hemalurgy may be used without Metal Spikes.

Anyway another problem is the metallurgy on other shardworld, many metal aren't know or usable easy.

 

About the "create a Koloss army".... how actually did you control them ?

 

You pay them. It almost worked once.

[Nashan’Elin]

Why the bind-points for surges? Some people would think an army of Koloss as an asset, and this knowledge seems to be one which could be likely to leak.

I was just using Surges as an example, it's still unlikely that Worldhoppers would know the precise bindpoints for Koloss, since that knowledge was first guarded by TLR, and then lost.

[Alfa]

I was just using Surges as an example, it's still unlikely that Worldhoppers would know the precise bindpoints for Koloss, since that knowledge was first guarded by TLR, and then lost.

 

I slightly disagree. TLR and the Inquisitors couldn't watch over all the Kolloss-camps for hemalurgy, and it seems that there were some hundred thousand Kollosses, so I guess it's safe to assume that several loyal Obligators did this. And since Marsh infiltrated the Ministry without complications, I also assume that some motivated spy could have done this - not exactly easy, but possible. And since the Kolloss-camps existed for severeal hundred years - it seems likely for me, that somebody like Khriss could have acquired this information.

[Jondesu]

Since we're 99% sure that Allomancy uses metal flakes on other worlds still, I'm confident Hemalurgy would still use metal spikes anywhere.  Finding the right ones for the trait to steal, as well as the bind points both on the victim and recipient?  That's probably the biggest road block of all, and would require a Shard to figure out in all likelihood, even with lots of practice victims.

 

I slightly disagree. TLR and the Inquisitors couldn't watch over all the Kolloss-camps for hemalurgy, and it seems that there were some hundred thousand Kollosses, so I guess it's safe to assume that several loyal Obligators did this. And since Marsh infiltrated the Ministry without complications, I also assume that some motivated spy could have done this - not exactly easy, but possible. And since the Kolloss-camps existed for severeal hundred years - it seems likely for me, that somebody like Khriss could have acquired this information.

Do you mean the existence of Hemalurgy, or how to do it for specific uses?  The koloss themselves do the spiking to make new koloss, and same for the Inquisitors.  I doubt any obligators knew how to use Hemalurgy, even if they knew of it's existence.

 

jW

Edited May 8, 2016 by Jondesu

[Alfa]

Since we're 99% sure that Allomancy uses metal flakes on other worlds still, I'm confident Hemalurgy would still use metal spikes anywhere.  Finding the right ones for the trait to steal, as well as the bind points both on the victim and recipient?  That's probably the biggest road block of all, and would require a Shard to figure out in all likelihood, even with lots of practice victims.

 

Do you mean the existence of Hemalurgy, or how to do it for specific uses?  The koloss themselves do the spiking to make new koloss, and same for the Inquisitors.  I doubt any obligators knew how to use Hemalurgy, even if they knew of it's existence.

 

jW

 

I'm about the specific usage with Koloss, since human strength seems to be available everywhere in the cosmere and so is Iron. I'm also almost sure that Koloss acquired the ability to create new Koloss only sometimes during WoA, when Ruin was almost free, but I need to check.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Alfa

[Jondesu]

I'm about the specific usage with Koloss, since human strength seems to be available everywhere in the cosmere and so is Iron. I'm also almost sure that Koloss acquired the ability to create new Koloss only sometimes during WoA, when Ruin was almost free, but I need to check.

Pretty sure it's stated that The Lord Ruler supplied them with stakes if needed, but they would replenish their numbers when he let them. I suspect that knowledge was built into them in some way, since they'd be harder to teach.

jW

[Voidus]

Most worldhoppers have enough power that a Koloss or two isn't going to be particularly useful to them, particularly if they'd need to waste a decade or so gaining enough knowledge to infiltrate the Ministry and find a position which gave them knowledge of Hemalurgy.

[Thunder_93]

Another problem that I see with Hemalurgy (in theory, existed on Scadrial as well):

 

It's not just about finding a victim to steal the power from.

But how does someone who has probably no powers, or at least isn't that strong (that's why he wanna steal power, right?) want to spike, for example, a Surgebinder, a Shardbearer or an Elantrian? They're all so powerful, it wouldn't be easy to even try it. Who knows, maybe we even saw attemps to spike some people on other planets, but the plan never worked out (not because Hemalurgy didn't work, but because they couldn't even spike them)?

 

On Scadrial, the Inquisitors had the huge advantage, that they already were really powerful, and created new Inquisitors or made themself even stronger. Plus, there were a few of them.

 

Some Inquisitors spiking a Surgebinder? Possibly. Some normal man spiking a Surgebinder? I don't see that happen (except he's running out of stormlight of course)

[Yata]

Some Inquisitors spiking a Surgebinder? Possibly. Some normal man spiking a Surgebinder? I don't see that happen (except he's running out of stormlight of course)

It's hard but you putted the whole thing in a battle scanario, while in the end an assassination works pretty in the same way as creates a Spike (and with the same results).

 

And if you want to put in a situation where the individal power is important. An Hemalurgist may begin with Spiking ordinary people and using them to create some little band of construct (Koloss for example).

 

PS: An Elantrian end a Shardbearer (of course without plate) are as a target as easy as every ordinary man to an assassination.

 

PPS: A skilled sniper may spike someone without enter in his vision.

[Blackhoof]

Well we don't know if spiking will work with the magic systems of other worlds anyway. It seems to me that hemalurgy steals attributes or abilities inherent in you since birth.

 

-Surgebinders get their powers through a bond with a spren- not an inherent quality of themselves

-Elantrians get their power through the connection they have with Arelon- also not inherent

-Dakhoran monks get their power through training and sacrifices- also not inherent

-Forgers I believe also rely on training and skill- can anyone with skill and training be a Forger? Same with Bloodsealers

-Awakeners are just anyone with Breath and training- unless you could use hemalurgy to steal breaths? but then that would be like using it to steal feruchemical charge i suppose, which you can't do.

-The birds get their powers through worms, they aren't born with the abilities.

 

So would Hemalurgy even work to steal these powers? Although perhaps you could steal the bond or the Spren and force it to bond with you.

 

And heck, maybe hemalurgy has been used on normal humans anyway, just not in enough numbers to be noticeable.

[Voidus]

Well we don't know if spiking will work with the magic systems of other worlds anyway. It seems to me that hemalurgy steals attributes or abilities inherent in you since birth.

 

-Surgebinders get their powers through a bond with a spren- not an inherent quality of themselves

-Elantrians get their power through the connection they have with Arelon- also not inherent

-Dakhoran monks get their power through training and sacrifices- also not inherent

-Forgers I believe also rely on training and skill- can anyone with skill and training be a Forger? Same with Bloodsealers

-Awakeners are just anyone with Breath and training- unless you could use hemalurgy to steal breaths? but then that would be like using it to steal feruchemical charge i suppose, which you can't do.

-The birds get their powers through worms, they aren't born with the abilities.

 

So would Hemalurgy even work to steal these powers? Although perhaps you could steal the bond or the Spren and force it to bond with you.

 

And heck, maybe hemalurgy has been used on normal humans anyway, just not in enough numbers to be noticeable.

We've had confirmation of enough things that I'd say it could steal any of those theoretically. (Well it could steal the ability to forge, not the skill)

For example we know it can steal a Shardblade bond, not exactly inherent.

[Yata]

We've had confirmation of enough things that I'd say it could steal any of those theoretically. (Well it could steal the ability to forge, not the skill)

For example we know it can steal a Shardblade bond, not exactly inherent.

Yeah and probably (I am quite sure but without a WoB I keep my hope low) you may use Hemalurgy to steal the Awakening ability.

We have a WoB about only Nalthis people may use Breath to Awake things, the others may have Breath, gains the passive ability and give them away, but they can't Awake things with them... Probably Hemalurgy may provide the right "missing part" (quite interesting you may steal this ability from everyone on Nalthis)

[natc]

While bonds are not "inherent" by way of birth, since they generally seem to attach to one's soul, presumably a hemalurgist can steal it by spiking the (normally mundane) part of the spiritweb where said bond is "anchored", for lack of a better term.

Of course whether the spren survives is a different matter entirely. That is a nonissue if they were already dead though, so a dead shardblade should be a fairly simple procedure if you can figure out how to stab them right.

Edited May 14, 2016 by natc