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Savanting breaths theory


Kolfire

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Hi everyone! This is my first post and it is on the topic of breaths. My theory is that when 

 
you get more breath and reach the Heightnings, you are really just getting better at using 
 
your breath and therefore are savanting breath. Proof of this theory is that when spook  
 
stops savanting his breath he feels duller and that is exactly what basher feels when, in
 
the prologue, he uses his breath. Also the literal definition of someone who is not having
 
breaths is drab! What do y'all think?

Edited by Kolfire
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There are some analogies but I think there are different processes.

 

In Savantism you (or better, your Spirit Aspect) are slowly eroded by Preservation Power. This is actually a damage to your Spirit Web also if in the end this give you a improved Allomantic Power.

The Spook case is quite a special case, his body "evolved" to gain benefic from his improved Tin's Sense and in the end his body became dependant of them.

But other Savants have not this kind of problems, many if not all the Copper Misting became Savant without even notice it, the Pewter Ones develops a pain immunity and the Steel Misting have some ability to use their power with more precision/control (the Main character of AoL is a Steel Savant).

Probably this kind of phenomenom may happen with any external Magic System (for example the Selish ones).

 

With the Breath instead you are simply adding persistent Investiture to your own, and a rule of Cosmere is "More you are invested more you find easy to use magic" probably because the power "wants" to be used. And the Breath improves you.

But once you give them away they don't leave any change in your body (well if you hadn't so many Breath to became a Sliver, but this is another topic)

 

The Nalthis people have more "Soul" than any other Humans but a piece of their soul is trasferable (Breath) and the remain part is above the Standard Human. This is why they are described as "Drab" (also remember they are described in that way by people with their Breath)if they give away their Breath.

If you read Mistborn (but I think you did it, or you will not use Savantism as example) a victim of Hemalurgy that survive to the process (yes it's possible) have a piece of his Soul stolen and are quite a Drab.
 

In the end a Drab is someone with less Soul than he have to.

Edited by Yata
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Thanks for replying!

You are probably right, but I will argue for the sake of argument. (Debate team represent!) 

​First, I would argue that every savant misting is in some way dependent on their metal. Pewter mistings are certinly dependent, as they suffer intense pewter drag. 

Second, I don't see a refutation to the most important part of the theory, that the heightenings are really an aspect of gaining more breaths. As you said yourself, "the Steel Misting have some ability to use their power with more precision/control" The same is true of the heightenings.

Source: coppermind

  • Third - 600 Breaths - Perfect Color Recognition (Similar to Perfect Pitch, but with the ability to determine precise hues and harmonies of colors)
  • Sixth - 3,500 Breaths - Instinctive Awakening (Ability to use basic Awakening Commands without training or practice. Difficult Commands become easier to practice and discover)
  • Seventh - 5,000 Breaths - Breath Recognition (Similar to Aura recognition, but for objects that have been invested with Breath)
  • Eighth - 10,000 Breaths - Command Breaking (Ability to override Commands of another Awakener's Awakened object)
  • Ninth - 20,000 Breaths - Greater Awakening (Ability to Awaken stone and steel, though it takes large amounts of Breath and specialized Commands)
  • Tenth - 50,000 Breaths - Audible Command (Ability to Awaken objects the Awakener is not physically touching) , Color Distortion (Creates colors from a white object by bending the light around it), Perfect Invocation (Awakener is able to draw more color when Awakening leaving objects white rather than grey)

All of these heightenings make a person better at using magic, similar to steel savanting. Also, I would argue that gaining more breaths does leave an effect. This is proven by how people quickly get used to having more breaths and it begins to feel natural. Also, we don't know what happens when a savant turns off their metals perminately. As a matter of fact this has only ever happened with breath. It may be that after a period of recovery, an ex-savant becomes a drab due to the holes made in their spirit web. They would, like a drab, have less than normal investiture. 

To sum up, if the definition of savant is a lasting effect on a spirit web, we cannot know if savants have ever existed because no known savant outside of war breaker has ever released there power. (At least, to my knowledge, if this is not true, please tell me) Because this cannot be a qualification, the only qualification is an altered affect while the magic is possessed. Breaths fit this requirement.

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Wait, you are mixing things together.

 

In every Magic Systems more you are Invested and more you find easy to manipulate magic, but this isn't savantism.

The Cognitive augmentation is a common thread in the Cosmere's Magic for Invested being.

 

The Savant have deeper "crack in the soul" (made by the stream of Investiture) but they don't lose Investiture or something like that... quite the opposite, they can drawn more Preservation's Power.

It's more like the difference between have a cracked object (Magic User), a more deeply cracked object (Savant) or have an object with a big missing part (Drab).

 

Anyway you may see how on Nalthis you became the same kind of Drab if you give away a Breath or 30000 Breaths (with the possible exception of a Tenth Heighenings User). The only difference is about if you learn something while you have the Breath.. For example if you figure Command while you have Breath, you don't forget it after.

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I do not think that it is unreasonable to think that Breaths could lend some savantish abilities, however it may simply be that the quantity of Investiture assists in teaching someone how to Awaken, leading to seemingly intuitive abilities with using Breath.

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I do not think that it is unreasonable to think that Breaths could lend some savantish abilities, however it may simply be that the quantity of Investiture assists in teaching someone how to Awaken, leading to seemingly intuitive abilities with using Breath.

That's basically the 5th heigthenning, no?

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I do not think that it is unreasonable to think that Breaths could lend some savantish abilities, however it may simply be that the quantity of Investiture assists in teaching someone how to Awaken, leading to seemingly intuitive abilities with using Breath.

But Breath don't twist the user... they are "parked" in the spirit-web (to be more precise they are mostly physical therefore they doesn't actually are part of Spirit Web, but you got what I want to say ;-) )...The only thing they may made in "very huge amount" is some Sliver process.

But the Breath are there and you can't gain more than what they can offer.

Edited by Yata
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But Breath don't twist the user... they are "parked" in the spirit-web (to be more precise they are mostly physical therefore they doesn't actually are part of Spirit Web, but you got what I want to say ;-) )...The only thing they may made in "very huge amount" is some Sliver process.

But the Breath are there and you can't gain more than what they can offer.

Savantism is a natural effect of holding investiture. Having any amount of investiture rubs off on the soul and makes the spirit web used to that extra power. That permanently affects the soul, damaging it in a way. Brandon told me that this is what happened to the wood and stone in Elantris, taking away the investiture damaged them (same thing happened to TLR).

I wonder what kind of effects this would have with holding breath.

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Savantism is a natural effect of holding investiture. Having any amount of investiture rubs off on the soul and makes the spirit web used to that extra power. That permanently affects the soul, damaging it in a way. Brandon told me that this is what happened to the wood and stone in Elantris, taking away the investiture damaged them (same thing happened to TLR).

I wonder what kind of effects this would have with holding breath.

But Dor used in AonDor is like a dynamic effect...it's a stream of Investiture exactly like Preservation's Power in Allomancy. Therefore I may easy think of some "Savant like" effect during an Elantrian long life (or maybe an Elantrian is already a Savant of Dor).

 

Breath are very less invasive. Probably you need to hold a ton of Breath to twist yourself (and in a Sliver like way).

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But Dor used in AonDor is like a dynamic effect...it's a stream of Investiture exactly like Preservation's Power in Allomancy. Therefore I may easy think of some "Savant like" effect during an Elantrian long life (or maybe an Elantrian is already a Savant of Dor).

Breath are very less invasive. Probably you need to hold a ton of Breath to twist yourself (and in a Sliver like way).

If this is the case then why is this same effect seen when someone holds a shard, which is basicly the same this a holding breath but at a larger scale Edited by Blightsong
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Ok, so I'm revising what I said earlier. After taking consideration and looking through WoBs I think that not all magic systems create Savantism. I think that Savantism is actually breaking off pieces of your soul to be refilled by the worlds magic, while holding a lot of investiture expands one's soul. Relevant WoB below.

INTERVIEW: Mar 20th, 2014

WOR Signing Report - IronCaf (Paraphrased)

OUTIS

What other magic systems in the Cosmere have that same kind of, "If you use it a lot it gets better?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the Investiture come in, and it can open the cracks more.

OUTIS

Are there other magic systems like that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

OUTIS

Will we see those any time soon?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Maybe...RAFO.

TAGS

cosmere, investiture,

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it's what I meant.

 

The Savantism is a long term change as answer to a Soul-Eroding effect made by Investiture's Stream, you became probably also Investiture addicted but in the end your Spirit Web are twisted....always.

 

The Soul's expansion instead is a short term change with no conseguence (the Investiture are probably just "parked" in yourself) for the user when he loses that Investiture (in standard case, if you  push the expanding Soul to its extreme, you obtain a Sliver).

 

I think that only  external Magic Systems may allow Savantism but probably not all of them

Edited by Yata
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it's what I meant.

 

The Savantism is a long term change as answer to a Soul-Eroding effect made by Investiture's Stream, you became probably also Investiture addicted but in the end your Spirit Web are twisted....always.

 

The Soul's expansion instead is a short term change with no conseguence (the Investiture are probably just "parked" in yourself) for the user when he loses that Investiture (in standard case, if you  push the expanding Soul to its extreme, you obtain a Sliver).

 

I think that only  external Magic Systems may allow Savantism but probably not all of them

I don't think this is exactly how it works. I tink that while Savantism is different from the soul expansion, the latter still has consequences. Relevant WoB below.

QUESTION

In Elantris it talks about how to wood and stone in the city is rotten and crumbling. Why does this happen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

This is because when objects become Invested for long periods of time their spirit web changes to accommodate the investiture. When the investiture was pulled up of the stuff in Elantris its spirit web was severely damaged so it showed that in the physical realm. This happened with the Lord Ruler when the Bands of Mourning were ripped out of him.

TAGS

investiture, spirit web, The Lord Ruler, bands of mourning

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I don't think this is exactly how it works. I tink that while Savantism is different from the soul expansion, the latter still has consequences. Relevant WoB below.

QUESTION

In Elantris it talks about how to wood and stone in the city is rotten and crumbling. Why does this happen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

This is because when objects become Invested for long periods of time their spirit web changes to accommodate the investiture. When the investiture was pulled up of the stuff in Elantris its spirit web was severely damaged so it showed that in the physical realm. This happened with the Lord Ruler when the Bands of Mourning were ripped out of him.

TAGS

investiture, spirit web, The Lord Ruler, bands of mourning

 

Oh, I like this.  It explains why ripping out the bands defeated TLR so completely.  He was probably in serious spiritual shock from the resulting damage, kind of like the most powerful Elantrian's were completely undone by the Reod.

All it takes is one truly weak point.

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I also haven't read this in a long time, but what happens once you reach a certain heightening and then reduce your total breaths? Do you immediately lower your perfect color recogntion, ability to do instinctive awakening, etc? Or do you still have it, because if you still have those abilities to a certain extent, it suggests that "savantism" is occuring while holding the large number of breaths. Just as in any other investiture.

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Thanks for replying!

You are probably right, but I will argue for the sake of argument. (Debate team represent!) 

​First, I would argue that every savant misting is in some way dependent on their metal. Pewter mistings are certinly dependent, as they suffer intense pewter drag. 

permind

 

A Pewter drag has nothing to do with savantism, and you don't suffer a Pewter drag, you suffer the after effects. A Pewter drag is just when you have a bunch of pewter and flare it for a long period of time while physically extending yourself.  You can become a Pewter savant if you Pewter drag often.

 

You could argue that if one becomes a Pewter savant, they will be affected in a similar way that spook was affected.

 

When spook was burning/flaring tin (which was pretty much constantly), he got so good at burning the metal, he could burn the metal at a faster rate, which meant more magic was coming into is body than his body could compensate for.  The magic caused him to be so good at taken in environmental stimuli, but his physical body failed to keep up with being able to handle all of that data.

 

A pewter savant could work the same way. They could get so good at burning pewter (getting more strength), but the body might not be able to keep up with that increase in strength. Example: try to lift a building, the magic will allow you to do it, but your body breaks in the process.

Edited by tobar14
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I also haven't read this in a long time, but what happens once you reach a certain heightening and then reduce your total breaths? Do you immediately lower your perfect color recogntion, ability to do instinctive awakening, etc? Or do you still have it, because if you still have those abilities to a certain extent, it suggests that "savantism" is occuring while holding the large number of breaths. Just as in any other investiture.

There are times in the book where people who just used Awakening experience the world growing less colorful around them, etc, but I don't have the exact quotes. It would probably be brought up when Vivenna puts all of her Breaths in one shawl after fleeing from the mercenaries.

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There are times in the book where people who just used Awakening experience the world growing less colorful around them, etc, but I don't have the exact quotes. It would probably be brought up when Vivenna puts all of her Breaths in one shawl after fleeing from the mercenaries.

That seemed to me to simply be perspective: their aura diminished because the Breaths left them, and everything seems comparatively more…drab.

 

jW

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I also haven't read this in a long time, but what happens once you reach a certain heightening and then reduce your total breaths? Do you immediately lower your perfect color recogntion, ability to do instinctive awakening, etc? Or do you still have it, because if you still have those abilities to a certain extent, it suggests that "savantism" is occuring while holding the large number of breaths. Just as in any other investiture.

 

The way I understood it is that you immediately lose the benefits but I cannot confirm that as solid fact.

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