Random Stuff IX: Rogue Admins

[Sunbird she/her]

@Quiver The Jean Grey/Phoenix Force swap is one comic storyline I have read in its original comic form, so I'm happy to say I know exactly what you are talking about there.  I never really watched the 90s animated series, though, so I don't know if that arc was incorporated into the show and if so, how much they deviated from the comics.

[Delightful]

7 hours ago, Sunbird said:

@Delightful Right. Pasta is full of carbs, which is why I chose that picture to meme on the mistype of "hermit crab." Maybe it's not as funny as I thought. 

I didn't see the typo

@TwiLyghtSansSparkles that's an epic chapter  

Edited August 16, 2016 by Delightful

[Sunbird she/her]

@TwiLyghtSansSparkles Ditto what Delightful said! I can totally imagine Melody analyzing the vending machine to death. XD

[The Honor Spren she/her]

On the one hand, I wish I could have hair like this lady:

Spoiler

(Though it would be shorter.)

On the other hand, I don't want to damage my hair by bleach, I sorta like my natural color, and all the shampoos I have to use would probably be too hard on the dye anyway. :/

Edited August 16, 2016 by The Honor Spren

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

1 hour ago, Delightful said:

I didn't see the typo

@TwiLyghtSansSparkles that's an epic chapter  

 

52 minutes ago, Sunbird said:

@TwiLyghtSansSparkles Ditto what Delightful said! I can totally imagine Melody analyzing the vending machine to death. XD

Thanks, guys!  I was actually a little self-conscious about that one, so I'm glad it was good. 

[Quiver he/him]

1 hour ago, Sunbird said:

@Quiver The Jean Grey/Phoenix Force swap is one comic storyline I have read in its original comic form, so I'm happy to say I know exactly what you are talking about there.  I never really watched the 90s animated series, though, so I don't know if that arc was incorporated into the show and if so, how much they deviated from the comics.

I think the cartoon simplified it by just saying the Phoenix empowered Jean? So, the Phoenix saga minus ridiculous retcons.

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I willingly read about the origin... origins of Donna Troy. Hit me.

Oh boy!

Okay, so. Xorn. Around 2001, Grant Morrison started his X-Men run with a bang; by destroying Genosha (the mutant equivalent of Israel by that point) and killing Magneto.

A big part of his run was the idea that mutants were expanding as a species and a culture, so he introduced a lit of new characters and mutants. One of those characters was Xorn,a mutant from China who had a healing ability. He also had a star for a brain, meaning he had to wear a steel helmet mask.

Xorn became anX-Man, and took over as the teacher of the remedial class at Xavier's. He fixed Xaviers' spine, allowing him to walk again; he saved mutants and helped the X-Men.

Naturally, he turned out to be a traitor.

Xorn was revealed to be an identity that Magneto adopted to infiltrate the X-Men. By that point, he was under the influence of a sentient drug, Sublime, which jacked up his powers and megalomania...to the point where he very explicitly was converting New York into a concentration camp for humans.

(Morrison's opinion of Magneto is that he is a 'mad old terrorist', rather than the anti-hero more typically associated with him)

As part of that scheme, Magneto killed Jean Grey by inducing a magnetic stroke. Wolverine returned the favor by beheading Magneto, killing him.

So, Magneto was Xorn and is now dead?

Nope. See, even ignoring the popularity of Magneto ad a villain, Marvel wasn't really happy with the way the character was portrayed. So, very shortly thereafter, they revealed that Magneto was still alive! Hooray! He was also never Xorn, so we don't have to worry about that whole situation...except that it left the question of "who was Xorn, then?"

Well, a while later, we got an answer to that. As it turns out, Xorn was actually... Xorn. He was a mutant who fell under the influence of Sublime who decided to pass himself off as Magneto so as to hijack the latter's name and reputation for his own reputation.

So we went from "Xorn is secretly Magneto" to "Xorn is secretly Xorn who is pretending to be Magneto who is pretending to be Xorn".

Added bonus, the above was explained to us by Xorn's brother.

Xorn's brother is also named Xorn.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Quiver

[Oversleep]

17 minutes ago, Quiver said:

He also had a star for a brain, meaning he had to wear a steel helmet mask.

17 minutes ago, Quiver said:

had a star for a brain

He what

19 minutes ago, Quiver said:

Apart of that scheme, Magneto killed Jean Grey by inducing a magnetic stroke.

Is "Jean Grey died" the equivalent of "It was dark and stormy night"? (BTW, check this. Tvtropes alert!)

23 minutes ago, Quiver said:

Wolverine returned the favor by beheading Magneto, killing him.

What? How?! ... isn't Magneto like the Kryptonite for Wolverine? I mean, control over magnetism. Metal bones. These do not go along well.

18 minutes ago, Quiver said:

Xorn's brother is also named Xorn.

Did it also turn out that Xorn 2 was actually the original Xorn and survived beheading and is now passing off as his own brother?

[Quiver he/him]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

He what

Is "Jean Grey died" the equivalent of "It was dark and stormy night"? (BTW, check this. Tvtropes alert!)

What? How?! ... isn't Magneto like the Kryptonite for Wolverine? I mean, control over magnetism. Metal bones. These do not go along well.

Did it also turn out that Xorn 2 was actually the original Xorn and survived beheading and is now passing off as his own brother?

His brother had a black hole for a brain. 

I think the official line at this point is, "Magneto was not Xorn. He likes people to think he was Xorn because it's a reminder of how much of a villain he can be if they cross him".

Xorn is, probably one of the messiest retcons in the X-books, I think, right up there with "Jean was never Phoenix".

Or the whole "Third Summers" thing. Which was actually an interesting plot hook screwed over by the terrible "Deadly Genesis" retcon.

(There is an entire subset of X-Men retcons under the topic of "Charles Xavier's is a Jerk")

Edited August 17, 2016 by Quiver

[Sunbird she/her]

@Oversleep I believe it's more than just "Jean Grey died," although that does happen A LOT. The full extent of the cliche is more like "Character X is dead. Just kidding, no they're not!" Or "Hey look, they resurrected!"

Also @Quiver I find your summary of Xorn highly amusing.

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, Sunbird said:

I believe it's more than just "Jean Grey died," although that does happen A LOT. The full extent of the cliche is more like "Character X is dead. Just kidding, no they're not!" Or "Hey look, they resurrected!"

Yeah, I know that death is super cheap in comics, but I just find Jean Grey dying more frequently than other characters.

Hm... Is there even a comic book character who has not died ever? I know it could be hard to keep track of all of them with things like Flashpoint Paradox where a lot people died and things like that, but how about characters who died and then got better?

[Sunbird she/her]

@Oversleep Yeah, even for a comics character Jean Grey dies more often than average. As for characters that have never died.... Well, there are some characters who specifically have the power of immortality, so I suppose one of them may have avoided dying or being killed. Or of course there are more newly created characters who just haven't had a chance to die yet. XD

[Oversleep]

Just now, Sunbird said:

Well, there are some characters who specifically have the power of immortality, so I suppose one of them may have avoided dying or being killed.

There is no such thing as power of immortality. There are just people not trying hard enough!

[Quiver he/him]

16 minutes ago, Sunbird said:

@Oversleep I believe it's more than just "Jean Grey died," although that does happen A LOT. The full extent of the cliche is more like "Character X is dead. Just kidding, no they're not!" Or "Hey look, they resurrected!"

Also @Quiver I find your summary of Xorn highly amusing.

I cite Linkara and Edgedancer as comedic influences.

12 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Yeah, I know that death is super cheap in comics, but I just find Jean Grey dying more frequently than other characters.

Hm... Is there even a comic book character who has not died ever? I know it could be hard to keep track of all of them with things like Flashpoint Paradox where a lot people died and things like that, but how about characters who died and then got better?

...but I disagree with some stuff here.

Firstly...yeah, death is cheap in comics. But, I think actual deaths and resurrection are actually rarer than people think.

For instance: Collosus dies disseminating a cure to the legacy virus!...Actually, he was teleported by aliens, so he never died.

Captain America died in Civil War!... Actually, he was shot by a time bullet which caused his consciousness to disconnect from his body. He never really died.

Superman was killed by Doomsday!... Actually, his body just entered a Kryptonite healing coma which very closely resembled death, but actually wasn't. Maybe.

Deaths absolutely happen, and are presented as such; the explanations for most resurrection, though, seem to be along the lines of "they weren't actually dead to begin with".

(And again...there are exceptions, and characters who really did die, and really did come back; Has Jordan, Barry Allan, Thor. But that's a separate point)

...though I do contest Jeans reputation in that field as being fairly unearned. She died in the Phoenix saga (which wasn't actually her), then during the Morrison run, and she's stayed gone. That's basically her total.

Granted, the writers tease her resurrecting a lot, and for a dead character, she has had a near disproportionate amount of influence on the books. The entire status quo of the books Pre-secret War only really worked because she was gone, and she still got occasional teases of a resurrection, or visits from beyond the dead.. 

But really, aside from having a name associated with death and rebirth, Jean hasn't really died any more times than a regular X-Man.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Quiver

[Sunbird she/her]

That's such a bizarre sentence: "Jean hasn't really died any more times than a regular X-Man." Only in fiction can dying multiple times be considered normal. XD

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Yeah, between the Infinity Gauntlet and the new Secret Wars, I think just about everyone and everything on the Marvel side has died at least once.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

1 minute ago, Orlion Determined said:

Yeah, between the Infinity Gauntlet and the new Secret Wars, I think just about everyone and everything on the Marvel side has died at least once.

Except their marketing department! 

/rimshot

[Delightful]

6 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Except their marketing department! 

/rimshot

 

[Quiver he/him]

4 minutes ago, Sunbird said:

That's such a bizarre sentence: "Jean hasn't really died any more times than a regular X-Man." Only in fiction can dying multiple times be considered normal. XD

Sort of noticed that while I was writing that. 

But yeah, Jean has a reputation which is more mimetic than fact as this point, in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said:

Yeah, between the Infinity Gauntlet and the new Secret Wars, I think just about everyone and everything on the Marvel side has died at least once.

Oh yeah, forgot Infinity Gauntlet. Guess we can add a death count to Jean's score then.

3 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Except their marketing department! 

/rimshot

I'd just settle for their editors at this point. Or whoever it is that mandates yearly events before the effect of the last one has worn off.

 but, yeah. Death in comics -at least the mainstream books- is a weird thing, because it opens a lot of questions, and changes how the world works.

I think that's why DC, generally, will go the dead-and-resurrected trope, while Marvel tries to wave it away with "not really dead".

DC is generally about the higher fantasy tropes; when your main characters are the Best Detective in the World, and the Most Powerful Superhero Ever, that sets a tone.

Marvel has always been about the premise of "the real world, but with super powers", so their storytelling has always been more about the soap opera.

(which isn't an insult; it's just that Superman and Spider-Man have different underlying story models)

A hero died, beat the odds and cane back fits with DC's power fantasy. A hero died, but not really, fits with the soap opera reveals of Marvel.

(which causes problems for Marvel, because they keep being explicit in their kills -we watched Cap bleed out on the steps of a courthouse- then they have to nackpedaled to explain how it didn't really kill them)

[Oversleep]

I went digging to Wikipedia. Look at this gem:

Quote

A new, female Xorn later appears as part of a future team of X-Men that travels back to the present during the Battle of the Atom event. This Xorn is later revealed to be an adult version of the "young" time-displaced Jean Grey, who needed the Xorn mask to control her powers. The team of X-Men she was with was actually the Brotherhood of Mutants from the future, the nemesis of the true X-Men, and she died when her powers went out of control in a battle between the X-Men and the future Brotherhood at Cape Citadel. Xorn later returns alive, and once again battles the X-Men with the rest of the future Brotherhood. However, it is subsequently revealed that this Xorn was just a puppet figure created by Charles Xavier II's mind powers after the real Xorn died during her final confrontation with her younger self. The former Brotherhood are freed from Charles Xavier II's influence and are returned to their timeline.

I don't even.

21 minutes ago, Sunbird said:

That's such a bizarre sentence: "Jean hasn't really died any more times than a regular X-Man." Only in fiction can dying multiple times be considered normal. XD

I laughed out loud at that sentence too xD

EDIT: Another gem:

Quote

(...) even though he followed the direction of Weapon Plus operatives, he had begun to question his role as a slaughter machine but was ultimately killed by Wolverine.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Oversleep

[Briar King]

Been watching gym event and this girl from China is 16 and 4'6. My 12 yr old daughter is a few inches taller then her. Geez. I thought she was 10 a few days ago when Olympics started.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

27 minutes ago, Cognizantastic said:

Cogadin!

  Hide contents

 

The resemblance is striking.  

Don't you guys just love when you get into a really good book (No Good Dragon Goes Unpunished) and then you look up and it's 1:30 and you remember that you have to be up at 5:30? Personally, it's my favorite.

[Sunbird she/her]

3 minutes ago, The Honor Spren said:

The resemblance is striking.  

Don't you guys just love when you get into a really good book (No Good Dragon Goes Unpunished) and then you look up and it's 1:30 and you remember that you have to be up at 5:30? Personally, it's my favorite.

YAAASSSSS Another Sharder is reading the Heartstrikers series!! Julius! I finished NGDGU a few days ago and have been trying to find the time to write a proper in-depth gushing review because Rachel Aaron and her book both deserve it.

[Edgedancer he/him]

4 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Except their marketing department! 

/rimshot

I'd argue that Marvel Comic's current marketing department may just be a bunch of zombies, seeing how it seems incapable of doing anything else but telling people what will be going on in their comics in three months, even if that spoils everything that will happen in their current books and annualy slap some pictures together with characters the company wants to push and titeling it "something something New."
 (Bonus points for there in short order being a new Secret War, Civil War and Marvel Now.)

4 hours ago, Quiver said:

I'd just settle for their editors at this point. Or whoever it is that mandates yearly events before the effect of the last one has worn off.

 but, yeah. Death in comics -at least the mainstream books- is a weird thing, because it opens a lot of questions, and changes how the world works.

I think that's why DC, generally, will go the dead-and-resurrected trope, while Marvel tries to wave it away with "not really dead".

DC is generally about the higher fantasy tropes; when your main characters are the Best Detective in the World, and the Most Powerful Superhero Ever, that sets a tone.

Marvel has always been about the premise of "the real world, but with super powers", so their storytelling has always been more about the soap opera.

(which isn't an insult; it's just that Superman and Spider-Man have different underlying story models)

A hero died, beat the odds and cane back fits with DC's power fantasy. A hero died, but not really, fits with the soap opera reveals of Marvel.

(which causes problems for Marvel, because they keep being explicit in their kills -we watched Cap bleed out on the steps of a courthouse- then they have to nackpedaled to explain how it didn't really kill them)

I think the trend was started by Quesada, now it seems to be a "people are buying so we are selling" [until everyone is feed up and we loose a giant market share] kind of deal.

As for death, I think an additional layer of problems for Marvel comes from them really trying to milk the deaths for some extra drama.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Favorite attempt to fix a plot hole on the Cursed Child Headscratchers page on TV Tropes so far: 

Spoiler

The plot hole: 

Quote

How come nobody wondered if it would have been a better idea to instead take a piece of paper (or parchment) with a list of horcruxes and their locations, write them down, then time turner themselves outside of Dumbledore's office (or where the order of the phoenix would be), then leave it there and say it is addressed specifically to someone like Dumbledore? If the time is a concern, at least put it in around say, third or fourth year after the diary was destroyed, so that they would know what to look for? Or maybe instead, you know, warn Cedric himself?

And the attempted fix: 

Quote

Because that was never their intention. They only wanted to stop Cedric from dying. Not help defeat Voldemort.

But why

That's like having the power to prevent WWII 

and the Holocaust 

and literally everything else that went wrong in the world between 1939 and 1945 

and then not doing it 

This

This lack of action is actually more irresponsible than the act of meddling in time 

They're literally saying "All of those other people can die, so long as we save this one person who wasn't even killed during the war" 

Just why

Spoiler

If you visit that page—yes, the following entry, that says basically what I just said, is mine. 

 

 

[Quiver he/him]

6 hours ago, Edgedancer said:

As for death, I think an additional layer of problems for Marvel comes from them really trying to milk the deaths for some extra drama.

Thing is, you have to be a certain level for your death to really matter much. Event comics seem to have a tendancy where they'll kill off someone -usually a C, maybe a B-lister- and use that as a motivator, or as an indicator of how bad the threat is, but that death isn't really referenced much.

(See, the original Civil War).

On the other hand, if a major character dies, you can expect that fallout to be cited for years and years afterwards as a huge defining thing, a death that has left an indelible hole in their lives... which then makes it awkward when the character comes back. See, Captain America.

Frankly, at this point, the heroes of the Marvel Universe should be emotionally burnt out. They have friends die, come back to life and die again constantly. I'm not saying they should be sociopaths or anything, but at some point, you have to assume the heroes are just going through the motions, which makes the attempts at milking the death seem all the more shallow.

9 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Favorite attempt to fix a plot hole on the Cursed Child Headscratchers page on TV Tropes so far: 

  Hide contents

The plot hole: 

And the attempted fix: 

But why

That's like having the power to prevent WWII 

and the Holocaust 

and literally everything else that went wrong in the world between 1939 and 1945 

and then not doing it 

This

This lack of action is actually more irresponsible than the act of meddling in time 

They're literally saying "All of those other people can die, so long as we save this one person who wasn't even killed during the war" 

Just why

  Hide contents

If you visit that page—yes, the following entry, that says basically what I just said, is mine. 

 

 

...I am not even kidding. Considering what a huge Harry Potter fan you are, I'm expecting a lot of headscratchers, fridge logic edits, and for you to tear this play apart, and it will be glorious to watch. I'm adding that page to my bookmarks, just so I can watch the edits in real time.