Renarin is going to be ridiculously powerful someday.

[Argel he/him]

Or just 5 years apart. Brandon hasn't decided yet.

 

Anyway, this is a fantasy setting, and Renarin has been in some combat. Take his magical abilities and what he does have and that could be enough for this setting.

 

There's also the strategic level, which Renarin may have enough experience for. If nothing else, he can probably predict which army will need support, supplies, etc. Intelligence as Ninja Yodeler mentioned, but also just plain logistics. For that matter, imagine if you knew which battles you would lose and which you would win....

 

On the Intelligence front, he could expose/become aware of (if not already) the various secret organizations.

 

Renarin is also one of the few to hold his own with Wit:
 

Wit: "...Can you speak, yet say nothing ridiculous?”

Eyes turned toward Renarin, who stood just behind his brother. Renarin hesitated, eyes opening wide at the attention. Dalinar grew tense. “Nothing ridiculous,” Renarin said slowly. Wit laughed. “Yes, I suppose that will satisfy me. Very clever.

 

Now, for the ultimate question -- when he sees Hoid, what does he see of the future?

Edited May 7, 2016 by Argel

[DreamEternal]

Renarin is also one of the few to hold his own with Wit:

Now, for the ultimate question -- when he sees Hoid, what does he see of the future?

Now, I love Renarin, but you are giving him undue credit. Hoid was actively trying to raise the boy's self-esteem. It was a friendly joke, not a battle of wits.

And you are acting like Renarin could control his future sight to see the possible long-term outcomes of anything he wants. As far as we know, only shards can do that.

Renarin's visions, which he is unable to control at least for now, appear to focus on very specific major events and don't cover neither their causes nor consequences, only when and where they will happen. Not reliable enough for him to be a master tactician, specially if they reveal him something that can't be simply met with strength of arms. I believe his visions, and his personality, would be put to better use if he became a politician, avoiding unnecessary conflict while keeping everyone directed towards preparing for the vague yet certain menaces he sees.

Edited May 7, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Guest]

Or just 5 years apart. Brandon hasn't decided yet.

 

Anyway, this is a fantasy setting, and Renarin has been in some combat. Take his magical abilities and what he does have and that could be enough for this setting.

 

There's also the strategic level, which Renarin may have enough experience for. If nothing else, he can probably predict which army will need support, supplies, etc. Intelligence as Ninja Yodeler mentioned, but also just plain logistics. For that matter, imagine if you knew which battles you would lose and which you would win....

 

On the Intelligence front, he could expose/become aware of (if not already) the various secret organizations.

 

Renarin has close to zero experience. He does not even come close to having "enough experience". By comparison, Adolin has started his military training at the age of 16. By that time, he already was a trained fighter, just a very inexperienced one. It is safe to assume he spent the first years on the Plains watching his father, staying very close to him and rotating into various squads such as he could get his hand around the army. By the time we meet him, early in WoK, he was leading a battalion of a 1000 men, just a 1000 men which is exactly how many Dalinar puts under the command of Kaladin at the end of WoK. Sure Adolin moved from having a 1000 men under his command to the whole army and he has been doing well with them, in the context of predictable gem hunts. We have yet to see what he is worth into the unpredictable Desolation. Renarin has four weeks of training. Four weeks. He is about 10 years behind Adolin in terms of training to ever become a military leader.

 

Personally, seeing Renarin evolve into a military man, after all, would not be a great read for me, but one who would tried my suspension of disbelieve. I strongly believe not all characters should be involved in the military and we already have several of those already. 

 

If I look at our main characters, 7 or 8 of them are warrior-type or warrior-type to be kind of characters: Dalinar, Kaladin, Szeth, Eshonai, Taln, Lift (most probably will grow into a female warrior, this one is speculation) and possible Shalash for being a Herald and our most likely Dustbringer. It seems to me as if having Shallan, Jasnah and Renarin remain on the side of scholarship is not so bad, it is even interesting.

 

 

Now, I love Renarin, but you are giving him undue credit. Hoid was actively tryingbto raise the boy's self-esteem. It was a friendly joke, not a battle of wits.

And you are acting like Renarin could control his future sight to see the possible long-term outcomes of anything he wants. As far as we know, only shards can do that.

Renarin's visions, which he is unable to control at least for now, apoear to focus on very specific major events and don't cover neither their causes nor consequences, only when and where they will happen. Not reliable enough for him to be a master tactician, specially if they reveal him something that can't be simply met with strength of arms. I believe his visions, and his personality, would be put to better use if he became a politician, avoiding unnecessary conflict while keeping everyone directed towards preparing for the vague yet certain menaces he sees.

 

I agree with this post. The fact Renarin has one smart reply to one of Wit's questions does not make him as wittier as the master. Also, you are right in pointing out Wit's purpose was to make Renarin appear smart. No matter what Brandon says about it, Wit is out there to interact with the Radiant, as shown by his active interest in all of them and his lack of interest into those who have not been chosen (mainly Adolin here).

 

I also agree the visions are too unreliable to be used as true insight into real-life battles. Besides, having visions is not a substitute to military experience nor is it a free-pass towards great tactical genius.

[Argel he/him]

In some ways it comes down to how much control Renarin will eventually have over his power. I don't think it's going to be erratic and uncontrollable forever. I also find it hard to believe he hasn't studied military history, etc. given how much he wants to impress his father and Adolin. The upcoming battles will likely require new tactics, and not having to unlearn a bunch of stuff that no longer works could be a plus.

 

One thing I am positive about is you are underestimating him. If not, then his SA book is going to be a slog fest of Renarin getting lucky time after time (or failing left and right, not sure which would be worse).

 

And regarding that quote, it's right after Sadeas fails at it, and I not would rate Sadeas as completely stupid. Though to be fair, Renarin is probably more in league with Navani, Jasnah, and Shallan, who I would rate as higher than all of the highprinces (possibly excepting Sebarial). It's too bad we never get to see Shallan and Hoid trade insults....

Edited May 8, 2016 by Argel

[Guest]

In some ways it comes down to how much control Renarin will eventually have over his power. I don't think it's going to be erratic and uncontrollable forever. I also find it hard to believe he hasn't studied military history, etc. given how much he wants to impress his father and Adolin. The upcoming battles will likely require new tactics, and not having to unlearn a bunch of stuff that no longer works could be a plus.

 

One thing I am positive about is you are underestimating him. If not, then his SA book is going to be a slog fest of Renarin getting lucky time after time (or failing left and right, not sure which would be worse).

 

And regarding that quote, it's right after Sadeas fails at it, and I not would rate Sadeas as completely stupid. Though to be fair, Renarin is probably more in league with Navani, Jasnah, and Shallan, who I would rate as higher than all of the highprinces (possibly excepting Sebarial). It's too bad we never get to see Shallan and Hoid trade insults....

 

It is true we do not know what level of control Renarin will ever achieve on his power: this is a fair point, but I disagree we are underestimating him. Most of us are saying Renarin has several great qualities and skills, they just aren't related to military tactics or warfare. I will re-emphasis my point: not all main characters need to be soldiers and with the majority of them actually being soldiers, it is great to have one male character who isn't. 

 

I also disagree his book will be a slog fest if Renarin doesn't develop military aptitude. I would agree reading Renarin's book, right now, would most likely be tedious: I believe postponing his POV is a very smart move from the author. This being said, Renarin's book won't happen until several more years, in a time frame where he will have time to mature and to come to terms with both his powers and his usefulness. Simply because a character is not involved into armed combat or its preparation does not mean he will be uninteresting. 

 

As for the quote, I would say we must be careful not to link too closely the aptitude at word play and intelligence as the two aren't related. Renarin, just as Shallan and Kaladin, may be capable at a smart come-back from times to times, but it doesn't automatically make him smarter than Sadeas. Sadeas, just like Dalinar and Adolin, is a more practical down-to-earth individual who has no time to loose with banter. It doesn't make him stupid, it simply makes him uninterested in wasting time launching pretty sentences. Some people are too pragmatic to understand word play and will often be left puzzled by it, not because they are unintelligent, but because they tend to take the words in their literal sense. Adolin is a prime example of this: he is terrible at word play, downright horrible, but he is a keen strategist and very smart when it comes to applying learned lessons to the field. If someone becomes a strong military strategist, it is him, not Renarin.

 

I personally believe it is a tad exagerated to rate Renarin, based on the little we have seen of him, as smarter than all of the Highprinces, especially considering how little we know of them. 

[mullman]

Even if his surges aren't useful in combat he still has stormlight that will give him a physical advantage over any soldier. He will also get a shardblade once he reaches the right level.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason he's bad in combat is because of his disease and the screaming shardblade. Stormlight can fix his body and he just needs to get rid of his current blade.

Now I'm by no means saying that Renarin will end up like Kaladin or Adolin, I really doupt that he wants to be 100% on the battle field killing entire armies single handedly. What I am saying is that he will have quite a bit of military cababilaty both on the front lines and off.

I think he will end up a bit more like Shallan where they are both primaraly off the battlefield but can function just fine on the battlefeild with a bit of training and practice.

[Guest]

Even if his surges aren't useful in combat he still has stormlight that will give him a physical advantage over any soldier. He will also get a shardblade once he reaches the right level.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason he's bad in combat is because of his disease and the screaming shardblade. Stormlight can fix his body and he just needs to get rid of his current blade.

Now I'm by no means saying that Renarin will end up like Kaladin or Adolin, I really doupt that he wants to be 100% on the battle field killing entire armies single handedly. What I am saying is that he will have quite a bit of military cababilaty both on the front lines and off.

I think he will end up a bit more like Shallan where they are both primaraly off the battlefield but can function just fine on the battlefeild with a bit of training and practice.

 

Actually no, Renarin's inability to fight aren't solely link to his disease. Kaladin remarks how Moash, after a few days of training, is much better at controlling his Plate than Renarin after several weeks. It has been observed quite a few times how Renarin is not progressing very fast and how he isn't very good at it. Dalinar remarks how Renarin makes a Shardplate look peculiar and awkward.

 

It isn't just his sickness, Renarin is not an athletic individual. Being epileptic perhaps prevented him from entering warfare, but it didn't prevent him from doing harmless physical exercise, but he comes across as very skinny and terribly unfit, it is just who he is. Some people just aren't good at the physical stuff which is just fine, they tend to be very good at other stuff.

 

Jasnah has also explained to Shallan how her studies showed her the majority of the Radiants weren't soldiers, but scholars. Brandon has once told us while Plate was available to all, not all chose to use it. In other words, there were a great bunch of Radiants who never took up arms, who never entered warfare despite having an advantage. It strikes to me Renarin may end up as one of those.

 

I personally would prefer if Renarin were to assess the battlefield isn't his place to be after all. We need characters who aren't soldiers. I also do not think Shallan will ever turn into a soldier either... It seemed far-fetched for her to even go there. Lift however most certainly will, with her and Eshonai, we have two female warriors, potentially three if we had mysterious Shalash who may end up being our Dustbringer.

Edited May 8, 2016 by maxal

[Argel he/him]

Yeah, not as athletic as the others. I wonder how much the Bridge 4 training has helped though. I'm sure he can eventually get "good enough" for a non-combatant.

[Guest]

Yeah, not as athletic as the others. I wonder how much the Bridge 4 training has helped though. I'm sure he can eventually get "good enough" for a non-combatant.

 

Four weeks isn't enough to pass from unfit to fit: it may very well take years for Renarin to compensate for his lack of physical aptitude. 

 

Edit: Since I have just read the second SA3 excerpt, I have a new theory to help fuel this discussion. It hit me in the face as I was listening to Brandon: Shshshsh spontaneously picks up her glass of wine with her left hand, Shshshshsh struggled all dinner long not to use her left hand to eat...

 

Shshshsh was left handed of this I am growing increasingly convinced which means Renarin may be left-handed as well. It may be why he can't hold his sword straight and he can't make the stances: he is forced to do them with his weak hand. It sure doesn't explain his complete lack of physical abilities, his general unfitness and his trouble simply controlling his Plate, but it does explain why he may appear more clumsy than average.

 

Being left-handed in a world of right-handed may do this to you.

Edited May 8, 2016 by maxal

[Sunbird she/her]

Four weeks isn't enough to pass from unfit to fit: it may very well take years for Renarin to compensate for his lack of physical aptitude. 

 

Edit: Since I have just read the second SA3 excerpt, I have a new theory to help fuel this discussion. It hit me in the face as I was listening to Brandon: Shshshsh spontaneously picks up her glass of wine with her left hand, Shshshshsh struggled all dinner long not to use her left hand to eat...

 

Shshshsh was left handed of this I am growing increasingly convinced which means Renarin may be left-handed as well. It may be why he can't hold his sword straight and he can't make the stances: he is forced to do them with his weak hand. It sure doesn't explain his complete lack of physical abilities, his general unfitness and his trouble simply controlling his Plate, but it does explain why he may appear more clumsy than average.

 

Being left-handed in a world of right-handed may do this to you.

 

After seeing this, I got curious and googled "Is left-handedness genetic" and came upon a Wikipedia page about handedness... Apparently there is a genetic component, but it's not easily explained or predicted, and there are several other theories about factors that contribute to which hand is your dominant one. (Position of the fetus in the womb, exposure to certain hormones during pregnancy, and what hemisphere of your brain handles which tasks are among them.)

 

/end tangent

 

Anyway, I think Renarin's left-handedness is definitely plausible.

[Guest]

After seeing this, I got curious and googled "Is left-handedness genetic" and came upon a Wikipedia page about handedness... Apparently there is a genetic component, but it's not easily explained or predicted, and there are several other theories about factors that contribute to which hand is your dominant one. (Position of the fetus in the womb, exposure to certain hormones during pregnancy, and what hemisphere of your brain handles which tasks are among them.)

 

/end tangent

 

Anyway, I think Renarin's left-handedness is definitely plausible.

 

Being left-handed myself, I'd say there definitely is a genetic component. One of my aunt is left-handed as well and it seems to run through several families. I just love this theory especially since we were all talking about how great it's be if Brandon were to write a left-handed woman into Vorin society. Turns out he probably did.

 

Just awesome. 

[Pathfinder]

Being left-handed myself, I'd say there definitely is a genetic component. One of my aunt is left-handed as well and it seems to run through several families. I just love this theory especially since we were all talking about how great it's be if Brandon were to write a left-handed woman into Vorin society. Turns out he probably did.

 

Just awesome. 

But if I recall correctly, the issue of right or left hand is feminine, not masculine. It does not dictate how you must hold the sword. Also if that was hypothetically the case, I could easily see Zahel noticing the discrepancy with Renarin and saying how it is stupid to hamstring yourself in a battle simply because of which hand you happen to favor. 

[Argel he/him]

What matters is that most people are right handed, so the swords forms will be designed with that in mind (e.g. stronger arm/hand, etc.).

[Pathfinder]

What matters is that most people are right handed, so the swords forms will be designed with that in mind (e.g. stronger arm/hand, etc.).

That still doesn't preclude that training would exist for a highprince's son for alternative hand forms. It is not contrary to the religion for a man to use his left hand, only for women. Do you think Dalinar or Adolin for that matter would hesitate for a second from training with an opposing hand or even training Renarin in left handed if it meant the difference between being effective in combat or not? Especially considering how prized combat is in the masculine arts, and how badly Renarin wants to be useful in combat. 

[Eccentric Hero he/him]

mysterious Shalash who may end up being our Dustbringer.

Shalash is a herald.

Shalash - The Coppermind - 17th Shard

[Argel he/him]

That still doesn't preclude that training would exist for a highprince's son for alternative hand forms. It is not contrary to the religion for a man to use his left hand, only for women. Do you think Dalinar or Adolin for that matter would hesitate for a second from training with an opposing hand or even training Renarin in left handed if it meant the difference between being effective in combat or not? Especially considering how prized combat is in the masculine arts, and how badly Renarin wants to be useful in combat. 

 

That's a good point, and I hate to say this, but I would expect Vasher to notice if Renarin was left handed. Though if most practice against right handed forms, then the training could occur less often/be more difficult. Still, I'm inclined to agree, and wonder if using the left hand is just viewed negatively in general in Alethi society.

[Guest]

Shalash is a herald.

Shalash - The Coppermind - 17th Shard

 

She is, but we also have 10 orders, 10 main characters and 10 flashback characters. Since Brandon confirmed the "flashback" box was the same as the "main character" box, we do know those 10 flashback characters are the 10 protagonists of the story. Brandon also said a main character would become a Dustbringer and Shalash is pretty much the only one left. She is the redundant one: we do not need another main character who is a Lightweaver, so it could be she will bond a Dustbringer spren despite being a Herald. I dunno, I just know book structure calls for her to be this character.

 

For the rest I personally do think being a left-handed individual in Vorin society would be a handicap. The left hand may not be technically forbidden, but it may not have crossed Renarin's mind he may be better using his other hand. Also after a lifetime using his right hand, it is even possible Vasher didn't notice: after all this isn't Renarin's only problem.

 

I think it is a valid possibility.

 

Shalash is a herald.

Shalash - The Coppermind - 17th Shard

 

She is, but we also have 10 orders, 10 main characters and 10 flashback characters. Since Brandon confirmed the "flashback" box was the same as the "main character" box, we do know those 10 flashback characters are the 10 protagonists of the story. Brandon also said a main character would become a Dustbringer and Shalash is pretty much the only one left. She is the redundant one: we do not need another main character who is a Lightweaver, so it could be she will bond a Dustbringer spren despite being a Herald. I dunno, I just know book structure calls for her to be this character.

 

[Blightsong he/him]

My guess for who is going to be a dustbringer is actually Moash. The end of WoR sets him up to be a viewpoint character.

[Argel he/him]

Do we know if each book in SA will correspond to one of the KR orders? If so, that would suggest the main POV character for each book will be the one to represent one of the orders.

[Pathfinder]

For the rest I personally do think being a left-handed individual in Vorin society would be a handicap. The left hand may not be technically forbidden, but it may not have crossed Renarin's mind he may be better using his other hand. Also after a lifetime using his right hand, it is even possible Vasher didn't notice: after all this isn't Renarin's only problem.

Renarin was willing to run into multiple situations not trained or in some situations not even properly armed just to help or feel useful. Although ultimately misguided, I do not think based on the evidence we have from the book that Renarin would avoid using his left hand in combat if it could improve his skill even marginally. Adolin is a professional dueler and is incredibly close to Renarin. He grew up with him. If anyone would know that Renarin was born left handed, it would be Adolin. If there was anyone who would see and encourage Renarin to fight with his left hand to be more skilled in combat which is something Renarin has wanted his entire life it would be Adolin. And if anyone could tell Renarin is using a sword in his off hand instead of his main, it would be the man who trained Adolin. The man Adolin convinced to train Renarin. The man who comes from a world where left or right handed doesn't mean crem. Zahel would notice, and he would say something about it. Finally Dalinar, Kaladin, and Teft are men very skilled in combat, and or training troops. They have years of experience noticing a person's strengths and weaknesses. How to focus on the strengths, and minimize those weaknesses. All three have been around Renarin while he trains during different times in his life. So I find it very hard to believe that Zahel, Dalinar, Adolin, Kaladin and Teft who are all very knowledgable in that field, would none of them notice Renarin is left handed and wielding a sword handicapped in his right. 

[Guest]

Renarin was willing to run into multiple situations not trained or in some situations not even properly armed just to help or feel useful. Although ultimately misguided, I do not think based on the evidence we have from the book that Renarin would avoid using his left hand in combat if it could improve his skill even marginally. Adolin is a professional dueler and is incredibly close to Renarin. He grew up with him. If anyone would know that Renarin was born left handed, it would be Adolin. If there was anyone who would see and encourage Renarin to fight with his left hand to be more skilled in combat which is something Renarin has wanted his entire life it would be Adolin. And if anyone could tell Renarin is using a sword in his off hand instead of his main, it would be the man who trained Adolin. The man Adolin convinced to train Renarin. The man who comes from a world where left or right handed doesn't mean crem. Zahel would notice, and he would say something about it. Finally Dalinar, Kaladin, and Teft are men very skilled in combat, and or training troops. They have years of experience noticing a person's strengths and weaknesses. How to focus on the strengths, and minimize those weaknesses. All three have been around Renarin while he trains during different times in his life. So I find it very hard to believe that Zahel, Dalinar, Adolin, Kaladin and Teft who are all very knowledgable in that field, would none of them notice Renarin is left handed and wielding a sword handicapped in his right. 

 

Of all people, Adolin is the least plausible to challenge societal normality. My point is, it appears as if, within the Vorin society, being left-handed just does not exist. It isn't even a possibility or a bad habit to remove out of children like in the old day: it just does not happen. Hence, little Renarin would have use his right hand even if the left works better and nobody would have questioned it because being left-handed is just not a reality, not to them.

 

You aren't going to point out something you do not even know may exist. Zahel would reasonably know, but it may not be obvious. 19 years of over-compensating with his weak hand would have muddle the cards.

 

Anyway, this isn't a hard-proofed theory, merely something I glimpsed within the flashback I thought may apply to Renarin. It may not be, but I thought it had merit to consider it.

[Argel he/him]

So when a left-handed Alethi baby is born, it has some innate instinct tell it it to ignore that' it's left hand is dominant?? Of course not. Parents, older siblings, nannies, etc. would have to actively discourage use of the left hand. There's nothing natural about not using your dominant hand.

 

Or are you trying to say that everyone in Alethi is born right-handed?  I'm pretty sure there is a WoB that contradicts that (not to mention that apparently Dalinar's wife may have been left-handed).

 

You also seem to be assuming that there are no clues that someone is left-handed if they have been forced to use their right hand instead, yet that individual would be much more likely to appear to be ambidextrous. There are too many highly trained people around Renarin not to notice, Vasher being the most obvious, and several from Bridge 4.

[C. James-Mayer he/him]

I don't understand why you are arguing that about the left-handedness in combat. Sorry, but that's really stupid.

 

It's common logic and knowledge, ask any soldier you know. You train in both hands, in case the main one gets damaged. Many soldiers become ambidextrous in the process.

 

You telling me Adolin, or Kaladin, or whoever, hasn't trained with his left hand? At least you will have to switch the weapon from hand to hand. I can even remember adolin doing that a few times in his viewpoints. As Pathfinder said, someone would have noticed that Renarin is doing better with his left-hand.

 

Also, you don't have to be a great warrior in order to be a great military general.... gosh....

 

Also, if you think you know so much about Renarin(without viewpoints and barely any reference to his day to day life), if he's not studying to impress his father and brother, what would he be doing?

For all we know, he could be either studying from cooking shells under Rock to studying politics and warfare.

[Pathfinder]

Of all people, Adolin is the least plausible to challenge societal normality. My point is, it appears as if, within the Vorin society, being left-handed just does not exist. It isn't even a possibility or a bad habit to remove out of children like in the old day: it just does not happen. Hence, little Renarin would have use his right hand even if the left works better and nobody would have questioned it because being left-handed is just not a reality, not to them.

 

You aren't going to point out something you do not even know may exist. Zahel would reasonably know, but it may not be obvious. 19 years of over-compensating with his weak hand would have muddle the cards.

 

Anyway, this isn't a hard-proofed theory, merely something I glimpsed within the flashback I thought may apply to Renarin. It may not be, but I thought it had merit to consider it.

So basically everything Argel and C. James-Mayer but to add a bit regarding Adolin. When it comes to his family, Adolin challenges societal norms left and right. His whole problem with his father in the first book is over the fact that society wants you to drink, fight, and dress fashionably, yet because he knows it is important to his father and is loyal to him, Adolin counters society by abstaining heavy drink, not dueling, and dressing in uniform. Being useful in a fight is important to Renarin. He feels like a failure because he can't. Adolin clearly loves his brother, and hurts when he sees Renarin hurt. As you pointed out in countless other posts extolling the qualities of Adolin, he countered societal norms by locking himself in jail with Kaladin because it was the right thing to do. Also as pointed out, left hands aren't seen negatively in the books regarding men. It was purely for women. We do not see any men with covered safe hands. 

 

I hope this doesn't come off as an attack towards you. It was a clever and insightful thought/possibility. Just I responded based on the evidence I feel is in the books that makes it in my opinion unlikely. I would not want my responses to be received as me beating you over the head with it, so I hope it is not be received as such. My intention is just to present my own opinion, and cite references to back it up. 

[The Invested Beard]

Pertinent: