Argel he/him Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Maxal, you are the one that wrote this: My point is, it appears as if, within the Vorin society, being left-handed just does not exist. It isn't even a possibility or a bad habit to remove out of children like in the old day: it just does not happen. Hence, little Renarin would have use his right hand even if the left works better and nobody would have questioned it because being left-handed is just not a reality, not to them. My point was, that there have to be differences between the two that have to go noticed. Soldiers usually train to work in formations, and that means main weapon the right hand and an off-weapon or shield in the left. They may do some training with both hands, but the heavy focus will be on the right-hand and stances related to that. And sword forms do not just magically mirror themselves when using the left hand. Left hand stances have to be designed for right-hand stances. That means a whole new set of stances, which we have no evidence for. Edit: We also have zero evidence that Kaladin trained anyone in Bridge 4 to use a Spear from the left hand. Edited May 11, 2016 by Argel
Guest Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 So when a left-handed Alethi baby is born, it has some innate instinct tell it it to ignore that' it's left hand is dominant?? Of course not. Parents, older siblings, nannies, etc. would have to actively discourage use of the left hand. There's nothing natural about not using your dominant hand. Or are you trying to say that everyone in Alethi is born right-handed? I'm pretty sure there is a WoB that contradicts that (not to mention that apparently Dalinar's wife may have been left-handed). You also seem to be assuming that there are no clues that someone is left-handed if they have been forced to use their right hand instead, yet that individual would be much more likely to appear to be ambidextrous. There are too many highly trained people around Renarin not to notice, Vasher being the most obvious, and several from Bridge 4. Which evidence do we have there even are left-handed warriors among Alethkar? Vorinism prohibits women form using their left hand which, to me, indicates the religion does not acknowledge their existence. If it did, it would allow women to change their safehand from left to right, but it doesn't. If Vorinism does not acknowledge the fact some women may be left-handed and may need to use their left-hand to fulfill their functions, then why would it even allow it for men? They can't, on one side, train their soldiers with both hands, design difference stances and encourage boys to use their stronger hands while refusing women the same right, worst not even acknowledging left-handed women may even exist. In the SA3 extract, both Navani and Ialai were incapable of conceiving another woman may be left-handed. The thought did not even cross their mind which again gives credence to the idea Alethi do not accept the possibility some individuals may favor another hand than the right one. As for babies, I will state little children will figure out which hand is the dominant one sometimes in between 2-4 years of age. It usually becomes more apparent when they try to draw/write and even then peer-pressure is very strong. For instance, I suspect my 3 years old is left-handed, but he won't use his left hand because everyone else uses the right one. Children mimic others and in a world where nobody accepts the possibility someone may be left-handed, they would end up using the right hand, especially in a world where little boys are not required to hold a pen. By the time he reached 19 years of age, the idea to even use the left hand would be completely forgotten and foreign. Renarin would simply come across as uncoordinated and clumsy, which he does come across as. This being said, Adolin broken his right wrist, so we may get to figure out what it means to not be able to use your right hand in Alethi society. So basically everything Argel and C. James-Mayer but to add a bit regarding Adolin. When it comes to his family, Adolin challenges societal norms left and right. His whole problem with his father in the first book is over the fact that society wants you to drink, fight, and dress fashionably, yet because he knows it is important to his father and is loyal to him, Adolin counters society by abstaining heavy drink, not dueling, and dressing in uniform. Being useful in a fight is important to Renarin. He feels like a failure because he can't. Adolin clearly loves his brother, and hurts when he sees Renarin hurt. As you pointed out in countless other posts extolling the qualities of Adolin, he countered societal norms by locking himself in jail with Kaladin because it was the right thing to do. Also as pointed out, left hands aren't seen negatively in the books regarding men. It was purely for women. We do not see any men with covered safe hands. I hope this doesn't come off as an attack towards you. It was a clever and insightful thought/possibility. Just I responded based on the evidence I feel is in the books that makes it in my opinion unlikely. I would not want my responses to be received as me beating you over the head with it, so I hope it is not be received as such. My intention is just to present my own opinion, and cite references to back it up. Well, it is great you point out it isn't an attack because the bold pattern does make it sound aggressive. The idea Renarin may be left-handed crossed my mind when I read the flashback chapter. It may not be so, but based on the clues I currently have, I do think it a valid possibility. Adolin doesn't challenge societal norm: he follows them blindly. He is surprised his father wants to stop the war because warring is what Alethi do, except Adolin doesn't even like nor enjoy the war... So he only wants it because society wants it and he has a very hard time thinking outside the box. The event you are referring to, going into jail for Kaladin, wasn't about braving societal norm, it was about not obeying to orders which violently clashed with his inner moral compass as it would mean letting bullies have their way. Each time Adolin acts against orders, he doesn't do it to challenge anything, but to stop bullies. This being said, Adolin is terrible at thinking outside normal conventions: he does not spontaneously think of new ideas, he isn't innovative. He is creative using the tools he does possess, but he isn't going to create new ones. If Adolin doesn't even know it is possible to be left-handed, then it won't cross his mind his brother may be. Maxal, you are the one that wrote this: My point was, that there have to be differences between the two that have to go noticed. Soldiers usually train to work in formations, and that means main weapon the right hand and an off-weapon or shield in the left. They may do some training with both hands, but the heavy focus will be on the right-hand and stances related to that. And sword forms do not just magically mirror themselves when using the left hand. Left hand stances have to be designed for right-hand stances. That means a whole new set of stances, which we have no evidence for. Edit: We also have zero evidence that Kaladin trained anyone in Bridge 4 to use a Spear from the left hand. Yes except we have no evidence it ever was noticed and considering their world does not accept the possibility women may be left-handed, why would they for men? It would contradict the whole safehand idea if left-handed women were to exist...
Pathfinder Posted May 12, 2016 Posted May 12, 2016 (edited) Which evidence do we have there even are left-handed warriors among Alethkar? Vorinism prohibits women form using their left hand which, to me, indicates the religion does not acknowledge their existence. If it did, it would allow women to change their safehand from left to right, but it doesn't. If Vorinism does not acknowledge the fact some women may be left-handed and may need to use their left-hand to fulfill their functions, then why would it even allow it for men? They can't, on one side, train their soldiers with both hands, design difference stances and encourage boys to use their stronger hands while refusing women the same right, worst not even acknowledging left-handed women may even exist. In the SA3 extract, both Navani and Ialai were incapable of conceiving another woman may be left-handed. The thought did not even cross their mind which again gives credence to the idea Alethi do not accept the possibility some individuals may favor another hand than the right one. As for babies, I will state little children will figure out which hand is the dominant one sometimes in between 2-4 years of age. It usually becomes more apparent when they try to draw/write and even then peer-pressure is very strong. For instance, I suspect my 3 years old is left-handed, but he won't use his left hand because everyone else uses the right one. Children mimic others and in a world where nobody accepts the possibility someone may be left-handed, they would end up using the right hand, especially in a world where little boys are not required to hold a pen. By the time he reached 19 years of age, the idea to even use the left hand would be completely forgotten and foreign. Renarin would simply come across as uncoordinated and clumsy, which he does come across as. This being said, Adolin broken his right wrist, so we may get to figure out what it means to not be able to use your right hand in Alethi society. Well, it is great you point out it isn't an attack because the bold pattern does make it sound aggressive. The idea Renarin may be left-handed crossed my mind when I read the flashback chapter. It may not be so, but based on the clues I currently have, I do think it a valid possibility. Adolin doesn't challenge societal norm: he follows them blindly. He is surprised his father wants to stop the war because warring is what Alethi do, except Adolin doesn't even like nor enjoy the war... So he only wants it because society wants it and he has a very hard time thinking outside the box. The event you are referring to, going into jail for Kaladin, wasn't about braving societal norm, it was about not obeying to orders which violently clashed with his inner moral compass as it would mean letting bullies have their way. Each time Adolin acts against orders, he doesn't do it to challenge anything, but to stop bullies. This being said, Adolin is terrible at thinking outside normal conventions: he does not spontaneously think of new ideas, he isn't innovative. He is creative using the tools he does possess, but he isn't going to create new ones. If Adolin doesn't even know it is possible to be left-handed, then it won't cross his mind his brother may be. Yes except we have no evidence it ever was noticed and considering their world does not accept the possibility women may be left-handed, why would they for men? It would contradict the whole safehand idea if left-handed women were to exist... Please point out evidence that for men left handed is a problem for their society. Not women. Men. Renarin is male. When you can provide that, I will concede. I bold where I put emphasis instead of caps in an effort to show emphasis and not yelling to avoid coming off confrontational. The bold is merely to call attention to certain aspects of the point I am making. Doesn't matter why he wants to follow the societal norm, what matters is why he acts counter to them, which is out of love, respect, and loyalty to his father. All of which he also has for his brother. I am a bit swamped today at work as I am the only one in my department, but there are left handed women. They just still use their safe hand covered, or use a glove instead. I will do a search for left in both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance when I have some more time, and provide the quotes to you. I look forward to seeing your quotes providing that men are looked upon unfavorably for having left hands. Thank you. edit: a quick search has yielded this WoB so far. As I attain further info I will add: JONMy burning question for Brandon is did I miss the explanation, world building moment or historical gem that explains why women have a safe hand and why they must keep it covered? BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS) No, you haven't missed it. People have asked about this. There will be more explanation in-world as it comes along, but it's for much the same reason that in some cultures in our world you don't show people the bottoms of your feet, and in other cultures showing the top of your head is offensive. It's part of what has grown out of the Vorin culture, and there are reasons for it. One of them has to do with a famous book written by an artist who claimed that true feminine pursuits and arts were those that could be performed with one hand, while masculine arts were those performed with two hands, in a way associating delicacy with women and brute force with men. Some people in Roshar disagree with this idea, but the custom has grown out of that foundational work on masculine and feminine arts. That's where that came from. One aspect of this is that women began to paint one-handed and do things one-handed in upper, higher society. You'll notice that the lower classes don't pay a lot of attention to it—they'll just wear a glove. As a student of human nature and of anthropology, it fascinates me how some cultures create one thing as being taboo whereas in another culture, the same thing can be very much not taboo. It's just what we do as people. There's more to it than that, but that will stand for now. Edited May 12, 2016 by Pathfinder
Argel he/him Posted May 12, 2016 Posted May 12, 2016 We may have accidentally stumbled across something. "Right hand" barely appears in either book, and ditto for "left hand". But in TWoK, when "left hand" is used to describe a male, that male is always Dalinar!! The only exception is a figure of speech referring to Gavilar ("not a scholarly finger on his left" or something like that). *wow* 1
Pathfinder Posted May 12, 2016 Posted May 12, 2016 We may have accidentally stumbled across something. "Right hand" barely appears in either book, and ditto for "left hand". But in TWoK, when "left hand" is used to describe a male, that male is always Dalinar!! The only exception is a figure of speech referring to Gavilar ("not a scholarly finger on his left" or something like that). *wow* Good point. I found one of the quotes you mention so far: Way of Kings page 204 Dalinar raced under the limb, transferring Oathbringer to his left hand and holding the sword out to the side, slashing through one of the chasmfiend's trunklike legs. Dalinar continues to fight the chasmfiend, and does not switch his hand back yet Way of Kings page 205 The king drew the monster's direct attention, and Dalinar was able to ride in and slam his Blade through another leg. Still no mention of switching back to the right Way of Kings page 205 Orders given, he slipped in and killed another leg. That meant five down. Way of Kings page 206 Dalinar hunkered low, careful to keep his Shardblade out, and he cut free another leg. It isn't till he is knocked off his horse by the Chasmfiend that the sword mists, and later he resummons it to his waiting hand. So Dalinar clearly fights for an extended period of time with the sword in his left hand. Thanks for pointing that out Argel. I will continue to do a search in the Way of Kings and then Words of Radiance for more examples. 1
Assassin in Burgundy he/him Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 Well... yes I agree to this. Renarin will, be powerful, but I think he'll be more of a ruler or politician. I took a "Which order of the Knight's Radiant are you," and I got Truthwatcher. It said they were the "aristocrats" of the Knights, and kept order and ruled them. He'll certainly be important, but he'll never be Adolin.
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