spoilers Gavilar's Black Sphere Identity

[Drakonstrong]

Alright, this is my first post, and I don't know how to work with spoiler tags or proper quoting, but I have a pretty good theory to propose!  There will be spoilers for WoK (mild) and Mistborn: Secret History (strong spoiler), so prepare, or leave, as you see fit.

 

To the Theory!  First relevant quote:

 

1:19:10 - What was the pouch on the Radiant in Dalinar’s vision in WoR?

A: RAFO. I'm not saying its important, but you have to get a RAFO.

 

 

Now, Brandon said this wasn't necessarily important, but I think it is.  Sanderson rarely includes this much detail for something with no importance, and the fact that it was RAFO'ed means there's something more there.

[spoilers!]

Reading Mistborn: Secret History, we see another sphere that reminded me of the sphere in the pouch the Radiant had: the sphere the Ire has, that can capture the power of a weakened Shard and contain it.  

 

This made me think of another quote, about the black sphere Gavilar has in the beginning of WoK:

I asked the following (from the big list of questions): 

 

Me: he sphere which Gavilar found that Szeth now has--I've been lead to believe that it either is or was heavily invested

Brandon: Yes

Me: Is it still heavily invested?

Brandon: Yes

Me: So, it hasn't, like, gone dun or anything

Brandon: No, it has not

Me: And I'm going to take that to mean it wasn't invested with Stormlight--was it invested by Odium? 

Brandon: Something like that.

 

(Emboldening my own.)

"Something like that."

I don't think think Odium invested in the sphere, but rather part of his power was taken from him and placed in the sphere.  I thought of this largely when I saw this question:

 

...despite that Odium is still a Shard, could it be that when he attacked Honor that Odium lost a large part of his Shard? Not Splintered (I wouldn't suggest that, despite that an actually Splintered Odium would be ironic), but perhaps Honor was able to actually harm him in some respect, that might explain why he's "broken" but not fully Splintered...

 

Odium is referred to as the "Broken One", in the epigraphs.  How is he broken?  I propose he was broken by the Radiants stealing a portion of his power using the sphere--possibly given by the Ire?--shown in Dalinar's vision.  With the power of Odium in it, it turned black, and became the sphere Gavilar had.

 

This would explain why Gavilar needs to keep the Sphere out of Parashendi hands.  If they give the sphere to Odium, breaking it as Kaladin did in Secret History, and giving the power, Odium might become un-"Broken".  This might even show why there hasn't been a desolation in so long, as Odium is Broken and doesn't have enough power.

 

It seems difficult to prove or disprove this with the amount of information we have now, but it feels right, and it seems like a Sanderson thing to have!

 

Also, thanks for enduring my first post.

[Tasty Flesh]

Interesting theory! Unfortunately a friend of mine has my copy of WoK, so I can't read through the passage with Galivar... that said, the following are my thoughts.

Positives:

It would explain why Odium is still on Roshar, if Odium was trying to recover his investiture.

It would explain why Odium hadn't splintered Cultivation.

It would explain the name "The Broken One," which I always found a bit of an odd title.

 

Negatives:

I propose he was broken by the Radiants stealing a portion of his power using the sphere--possibly given by the Ire?

Two parts to this.

First, I doubt it was the Radiants, but rather the Heralds are more likely candidates for this. Even then though, I'm not sure if they have the power necessary to do this. I think it is more likely it was Honor who would responsible. This could possibly be the Oathpact, although, that name doesn't seem to fit these circumstances very well, so I think that is something else.

Second, I would doubt the Ire. I doubt they would be interested in giving others the ability to take up a shard, especially when that is their interest to do so themselves. That said, they may want to do anything possible to keep Odium at bay, or weakened, so who knows. However, if the investment of this sphere happened as early as you seem to suggest, then I think it is unlikely that the Ire is responsible.

 

Dang, I wish that 2nd part had been as concise as the 1st part...

[Argel he/him]

Nitpick: Odium is active on Roshar, but he's on Braize. I'm thinking more Heralds and/or Honor. Though given some of his associates, it could come from all sorts of places.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Argel

[Espella]

This might also explain why the Parshendi freaked out and killed Gavilar, they thought he was going to release Odium into the world or something.

 

It's been a while since I've read either Stormlight book so I can't really put more thought into this.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

I really like this theory. My problem:

 

 

Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?

 This comes from  the part four epigraphs of WoR

Edited April 14, 2016 by Silverblade5

[Jondesu he/him]

I really like this theory. My problem:

This comes from the part four epigraphs of WoR

Good news: that quote has been confirmed to not be about the sphere. It's a reference to Topaz, a name Hoid once went by (itself a reference to a large gem he wore, I understand).

jW

[OmegaOne]

I really like this! It makes complete sense to me. Were the Radiants carrying a black sphere? I don't remember? I'm curious to know how did Honour trap some of Odiums investure into the sphere? Was it something similar to Leras sacrificing his mind in order to trap Ati or something completely different?

[Bugsy he/him]

I really like this theory! It makes much more sense than any I've thought of. My only issue is that it's a rather un-original twist, considering that a piece of stolen Investiture was a large aspect in HoA

 

 

Slightly off topic

I had this one super crazy theory I made just for fun where the sphere is actually the cognitive aspect of a planet (Perhaps Yolen). The only evidence to support this is that the sphere was glassy, black and glowed, and when Shallan visited Shadesmar in the ocean, the ground was a glassy black and seemed to glow/reflect light as well. (Plus the obvious connotation of the sphere to the orbs in the cognitive realm). Yours makes a lot more sense than this, so nice job!

[kenod]

Wasn't Odium's colour red? I believe that there was an old stormlight thread about this too, but there they believed it came from Cultivation.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/52234-gavilars-black-sphere-and-its-content/

 

Also, in that thread the argument was raised that black didn't seem like a colour for cultivation, but the color of fertile earth is black, something that is in line with Cultivation.

[Argel he/him]

This might also explain why the Parshendi freaked out and killed Gavilar, they thought he was going to release Odium into the world or something.

 

I thought we learned they killed him because he revealed he wanted to bring their god back (thinking they would be happy about that)?

[Erunion he/him]

I thought we learned they killed him because he revealed he wanted to bring their god back (thinking they would be happy about that)?

More specifically, their Gods back, plural. 

Which would ABSOLUTELY happen if he broke a sphere and released Odium. 

 

Which is one of the reasons I really like this theory. I am totally down with it being part of Odium that's being kept from him (because it mirrors the Atium so well; Atium on Scadrial is a metal, so it makes so much sense for Odium's physical form to be a gemstone on Roshar, where the physical focus is stone). 

I also suspect that it's Honour who did this, as a dying blow against Odium, sacrificing himself to protect Cultivation by hurting/holding Odium back. (I think he did this anyway, whether or not the sphere has Odium essence in it). 

[taveren he/him]

the sphere in secret history didn't contain steal or seal any shard it just attuned kesler to preservation so he could control the shards power till vin could grab the shard

[Drakonstrong]

the sphere in secret history didn't contain steal or seal any shard it just attuned kesler to preservation so he could control the shards power till vin could grab the shard

 

It did more than attune kelsier to preservation.  WoB has said that ascension to Preservation is basically like burning a ton of lerasium:

"INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

DOUGLAS

What about a Lerasium savant? Or would that require so much Lerasium that the person attempting it would ascend to become a new Shardholder?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Basically, this is what ascension is."

And so, this would mean that to ascend is to use a large amount of the Investiture of that shard.  This, in turn, means that the sphere had to house a large amount of Investiture, because Kelsier ascended for sure.  Plus, the quote I used in my first post said the black sphere is "heavily invested", so if the two spheres are comparable, the sphere in M:SH would be invested heavily as well.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Drakonstrong

[Bugsy he/him]

 

It did more than attune kelsier to preservation.  WoB has said that ascension to Preservation is basically like burning a ton of lerasium:

"INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

DOUGLAS

What about a Lerasium savant? Or would that require so much Lerasium that the person attempting it would ascend to become a new Shardholder?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Basically, this is what ascension is."

And so, this would mean that to ascend is to use a large amount of the Investiture of that shard.  This, in turn, means that the sphere had to house a large amount of Investiture, because Kelsier ascended for sure.  Plus, the quote I used in my first post said the black sphere is "heavily invested", so if the two spheres are comparable, the sphere in M:SH would be invested heavily as well.

The sphere in SH that caused lines to radiate from Kelsier in every direction did so because it automatically strengthened his connection to any form of Preservation's investiture. When he pulled on these lines, he called the investiture into himself, causing his ascension. Basically, the sphere itself contained only connection, not large quantities of Preservation's investiture, but it allowed Kelsier to obtain enough investiture by pulling it to himself through his connection that he was able to ascend.

 

ETA: Because the spiritual realm, and therefore connection, is composed of investiture, the sphere could possibly be highly invested. It may not be Preservation's investiture, however, because we know investiture from different shards can substitute for each other (when disregarding intent).  It most certainly could not have contained large amounts of Preservation, however, because such a discrepancy would undoubtedly be mentioned in the books

Edited April 18, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[Drakonstrong]

The sphere in SH that caused lines to radiate from Kelsier in every direction did so because it automatically strengthened his connection to any form of Preservation's investiture. When he pulled on these lines, he called the investiture into himself, causing his ascension. Basically, the sphere itself contained only connection, not large quantities of Preservation's investiture, but it allowed Kelsier to obtain enough investiture by pulling it to himself through his connection that he was able to ascend.

 

Hmm... that does seem to be the case... and the Ire did say that the orb was a tool to capture the power of a weakened or dead Shard.  It would make sense that the way to capture that power is by pulling Investiture in, and that the Shard would just resist if it was still active.

 

If it's similar to the orbs of physical objects in Shadesmar's consciousness/connection, perhaps breaking the orb gave the kind of Shardic connection that Preservation had to his Investiture?  

I still believe the two orbs are similar purpose and use, between WoK and M:SH, and if it isn't heavily Invested it very well could be heavily Connected.  

If it was storing Connection it would be interesting, and change how the sphere worked on Roshar.  I imagine as on Scandrial it was blue lines, it would be a similarly Rosharian experience with the black sphere.  

Also, If it pulled Investiture in as the M:SH sphere did, would it take Investiture out of those Invested?  (Say, for example, would it pull the spren bond from the Parashendi?)  In M:SH it seemed like he didn't get any Investiture added to him, but more connected to him--I say this because nothing in M:SH or the trilogy lead us to believe anything in the world became less Invested, and Investiture cannot be created.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

My idea is that the sphere is a Dawnshard, capable of binding anything, either voidish or mortal, and the reason for it's appearance is but cause it imprisons one of the Unmqwde

[Yata he/him]

The Ire's tool don't work on a "weak or dead" Shard, simply it make the user elegible to be a Vessel. Preservation had not anything out of place or something like that when Kelsier used the tool. It was simply a full Shard without Vessel bacuse Leras in the end was dead.

The Sphere itself worked simply giving to Kel a strong Connection to Preservation, something like people as Vin or Sazed had without artifical boost.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Yata

[Blightsong he/him]

I don't think Gavilar's sphere only has to do with Odium. Based on a WoB I received, black investiture indicates a mixing of shard's investiture.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

2 possibilities: It's something that will one day become a super important macguffin

It's a complete red herring

[Espella]

I don't think Gavilar's sphere only has to do with Odium. Based on a WoB I received, black investiture indicates a mixing of shard's investiture.

Is there a place where we can see that? I'm just curious on the exact wording, especially since I thought black was Ruin's color.

[Blightsong he/him]

Is there a place where we can see that? I'm just curious on the exact wording, especially since I thought black was Ruin's color.

It can be found on my transcription on the Oddesey Con thread, first page, in the events forum. When asking him about currupted investiture he said it was usually a mixing of shard's investiture, and people just perceived it as a corruption (kind of like how Voidbringers spren are seen as corrupted). When I asked if Nightblood or Gavilar's sphere was a mixture of investiture he seemed like he wanted to say something but RAFOed me. It overall makes sense, as a mix of colors often comes out as black, or at least a dark color. This makes even more sense in regaurds to Gavilar's sphere when you take up into consideration that Nightblood is called 'corrupted' in Warbreaker.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Well, the Cognitive Realm is full of black spheres that may be the same size as Gavilars black sphere. This just came to mind about an hour ago. Am I an idiot? Has this already been disproven? Are the Cognitive Realm beads bigger/smaller than Gavs black sphere?

[A Windspren he/him]

My theory is that it holds one of the Unmade. Szeth hid it in Jah Keved, so maybe it influenced Shallan's father and made him the hateful person he was?

[Jondesu he/him]

My theory is that it holds one of the Unmade. Szeth hid it in Jah Keved, so maybe it influenced Shallan's father and made him the hateful person he was?

Szeth found that long after Shallan's mother was killed and her father turned into a terror.

jW

[A Windspren he/him]

Szeth found that long after Shallan's mother was killed and her father turned into a terror.

jW

 

I don't know, Shallan's father didn't seem that bad right after Shallan's mother was killed. The corruption from the Unmade probably happened later.