The Making of the Cosmere: Relationship Among the Powers of Creation, Adonalsium and Investiture

[Blightsong he/him]

I wonder what happens to non-Shardworld humans, then. Do they have any Investiture in them? If so, do they just go straight to the Beyond (instead of taking a short stop at the Cognitive Realm, which is assumedly due to Investiture)?

It isn't the investiture that allows them to stay longer, but rather the intricacy of their spirit web. This why, while Mistborn aren't really any more invested than a regular human (if they aren't a savant), they still stay around longer. They have connections in the spirit web that normal humans don't, which makes it more difficult for the beyond to pull their spirit away.

Edit: While my above statement is true, investiture running through their spirit web also bolsters it and allows them to stay longer, so investiture does have an effect on that. People from major shardworlds probably do stay around a bit longer, but it isn't just instant for all minor shardworlders.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Blightsong

[Vissy]

Thanks, your answer helped a lot. I hadn't considered the spirit web at all. So then becoming a Sliver actually transforms your spirit web, not so much your Investiture, if I understood correctly. There will be a trace or a whiff of the divine Investiture in the Sliver, but mostly I'm guessing their resistance to being pulled to the Beyond comes from their spirit web.

[Blightsong he/him]

Thanks, your answer helped a lot. I hadn't considered the spirit web at all. So then becoming a Sliver actually transforms your spirit web, not so much your Investiture, if I understood correctly. There will be a trace or a whiff of the divine Investiture in the Sliver, but mostly I'm guessing their resistance to being pulled to the Beyond comes from their spirit web.

I'm actually not 100% sure about being a Sliver, but being a Sliver definitely leaves behind investiture, similar to Savantism. In a Mistborn or Surgebinder's it is mostly the different connections but the investiture left behind still plays a role. It could play a lot larger of a role in slivers because of the amount of investiture left behind.

[Vissy]

I dismissed that, because from what I gathered, Slivers aren't particularly special in any way - other than for the privilege of being recognized by those who can recognize Slivers. If you could access that innate investiture, though, use it for local magic systems...

[Blightsong he/him]

I dismissed that, because from what I gathered, Slivers aren't particularly special in any way - other than for the privilege of being recognized by those who can recognize Slivers. If you could access that innate investiture, though, use it for local magic systems...

I doubt that you could do that, in the same way that you can't use the spark of life to fuel Allomancy. Maybe with Awakening it would work, but a sliver's investiture is a part of their basic soul.

[Confused]

Many of you believe that the “Powers of Creation” are just different words for “Investiture.” Blightsong, for example, has done an admirable job of dredging up WoBs in support of that view. The following is my attempt to reconcile this conflict and see if we can reach common ground.

 

To review, the OP posits that Adonalsium was the consciousness the previously mindless Powers of Creation developed to wield them. Power without conscious direction will become conscious on its own. I believe that’s what happened here. Adonalsium was the “God Beyond” the Realms who “invested” in the Realms and created them. When the mortals who became Shards Shattered Adonalsium, they pulled the Powers of Creation into the Cosmere's Realms.

 

Reconciliation: Because these mortals already existed within the Cosmere’s three Realms, each already had a mind, body and Soul that consisted of matter, energy and Investiture. The Shattering thus merged the Powers of Creation into the Vessels’ Spiritual Realm Investiture, their Souls. IOW the Powers of Creation became the Souls of the Shards, just as they were once Adonalsium’s Soul, but adapted themselves to the Vessels’ existing Spiritual Realm Investiture composition. The Powers of Creation BECAME Spiritual Realm Investiture.

 

This explanation is consistent with the OP’s theory. There I stated “I believe that the Shattering caused the powers of creation to became part of the Shards’ souls, in the Spiritual Realm.” I just need to add that the Powers of Creation are now composed of Spiritual Realm Investiture.

 

I still have a problem with conflating the Powers of Creation and Investiture. How do we distinguish between Divine Breath (a Splinter) and mere Breath (which is not) if both are made from Endowment’s Spiritual Realm Investiture? IIRC 2,000 Breaths approximately equals the power level of a Divine Breath, but they are still different things. If their composition is identical, and both come from Endowment’s Investiture, how is a Splinter any different from any other form of Investiture?

 

Nonetheless, in the spirit of reconciliation, I offer this compromise. Regards all!

Edited April 30, 2016 by Confused

[Vissy]

Divine Breaths probably just have a fundamentally different Spirit Web effect, alongside a much much higher Investiture.

[Blightsong he/him]

Divine Breaths probably just have a fundamentally different Spirit Web effect, alongside a much much higher Investiture.

Agreed. I think it's just its own magic system, separate from Awakening but similar.

[Yata he/him]

I still have a problem with conflating the Powers of Creation and Investiture. How do we distinguish between Divine Breath (a Splinter) and mere Breath (which is not) if both are made from Endowment’s Spiritual Realm Investiture? IIRC 2,000 Breaths approximately equals the power level of a Divine Breath, but they are still different things. If their composition is identical, and both come from Endowment’s Investiture, how is a Splinter any different from any other form of Investiture?

 

Nonetheless, in the spirit of reconciliation, I offer this compromise. Regards all!

I think the best analogy is about  70 Kg of Cells and an Human being.. they are both 70 Kg of matter made by the same raw materials. But one is a general purpose and indipendent set of Cells, the second is an overall functional entity.

 

In the end the main difference is about a Splinter be a structured amount of Investiture

Edited April 30, 2016 by Yata

[Master_Moridin he/him]

I still have a problem with conflating the Powers of Creation and Investiture. How do we distinguish between Divine Breath (a Splinter) and mere Breath (which is not) if both are made from Endowment’s Spiritual Realm Investiture? IIRC 2,000 Breaths approximately equals the power level of a Divine Breath, but they are still different things. If their composition is identical, and both come from Endowment’s Investiture, how is a Splinter any different from any other form of Investiture?

 

Nonetheless, in the spirit of reconciliation, I offer this compromise. Regards all!

 

Well, some recent WoB should shine some (potential) light on this

 

Talking about the Stormfather, are the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren, Cusicesh, are they on the same level?

A: The Nightwatcher, yes. Um...uh...there are...I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that’s what Cusicesh is.

Q: So the Nightwatcher is a spren?

A: They call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That’s what they would call...that’s what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive. So they would call Nightblood a spren. That’s the word for what all of these things are. They would probably call Adonalsium a spren. [Laughter] If...Right...So.

Q: What would Hoid call one of those? What would Hoid call the Nightwatcher?

A: Um…[long pause]

Q: If Hoid were to use a non-proper noun?

A: Unpleasant names. [general laughter]

Relevant part bolded

Edited May 1, 2016 by Master_Moridin

[Argel he/him]

That quote just tells us what Roshar thinks, not that what they think is accurate. If anything, it's implied that it's not.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

That quote just tells us what Roshar thinks, not that what they think is accurate. If anything, it's implied that it's not.

That's not the implication of the phrasing though.

 

Brandon says that if they did in fact know what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren, because by their definition a spren is living Investiture.  Ergo, the implication is that Honor is made of Investiture.

[Blightsong he/him]

The original poster update the original theory in a post above yours, Master_Morin. It recognizes that shards are investiture.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

The original poster update the original theory in a post above yours, Master_Morin. It recognizes that shards are investiture.

...That's the post I quote part of in my post, so I'm aware it's there.

 

The premise of the theory is still that the Powers of Creation and Investiture are different things, when according to the quote if Rosharans knew what Adonalsium was, they would probably also classify it under spren (I assume the only reason there's a probably is because of Adonalsium's presumed immense power).

 

There's also the fact the quote gives a definition for spren as living Investiture, which gives a partial answer for the piece I quoted.  Divine Breaths are Splinters, and so are spren.  So the difference is that Divine Breaths are "alive" (There's another WoB that directly defines Splinters as "pieces of the power of Adonalsium that have become self-aware", but due to the relevance of the defining of spren, which are Splinters, I figured the quote I posted offered a better explanation within the current context.)

Edited May 1, 2016 by Master_Moridin

[Confused]

Thanks to you all for your continued interest in this theory. I’d like to respond to the following points: (1) further “main theory” questions about the relationship between Investiture and the Powers of Creation, (2) the relationship between Splinters and other forms of Investiture, and (3) the meaning of “living” Investiture.

 

1. Main Theory

 

I still believe that all Cosmere magic flows from the Powers of Creation. I rationalize Brandon’s conflicting statements by concluding that the Shattering invested the Shards with these Powers. IOW the Powers of Creation became the bulk of the Shards’ Spiritual DNA that comprises their Souls. The Powers of Creation, therefore, now ARE Investiture. (I say the Powers are only part of the Shards’ Souls, because the Vessels’ original Souls still seem to be lurking within them. The Vessels do drop out of the Shards when they die, as Leras, Ati and Vin all did.)

 

Characterizing the Powers of Creation as part of the Shards’ Souls, and hence Investiture themselves, allows my basic magic model to continue to run smoothly. Magic Users can still “touch” and “use” the Powers of Creation – Connect with them – and we can call what Magic Users touch “Investiture.” I will be amending my A Glossary of Important Cosmere Terms post, and the OP in this thread, to reflect these conclusions.

 

2. Splinters vs. Other Investiture

 

To illuminate the main theory, I asked about the difference between Divine Breath (a Splinter) and mere Breath (which is not). If they’re both “Investiture,” how does one distinguish between Splinters and other forms of Investiture?

 

I came up with the following explanation: Splinters can independently create magic. As Brandon has said, Splinters are both Spirit and Mind. They have no need to Connect back to their Shard for power. By themselves, Splinters can perform the same magic as their Shard, though on a smaller scale. Other forms of Investiture allow a Connection to their Shard, but it is the Shard’s power that performs the magic.

 

Varangian opined that “Divine Breaths probably just have a fundamentally different Spirit Web effect, alongside a much much higher Investiture.” I disagree with the second part of this statement, since a person can have anywhere from no Breaths (a drab) up to more than 50,000 Breaths (Susebron).

 

But I do agree that Divine Breaths and mere Breaths cause their hosts to have “fundamentally different” SpiritWebs – a direct result of their different Investiture. A Returned is a resurrected dead person whose Soul is directly bonded to its Divine Breath.  An Awakener is still alive and must Connect to Endowment to Awaken objects.

 

Because a Returned doesn’t need a Connection to Endowment to perform magic, it can only use its Divine Breath once. The absence of a Connection to Endowment means the Returned cannot increase its magical power by adding Breaths the way an Awakener can. A Returned does need to periodically acquire Breath, but that’s because the Returned’s Soul knows the Returned is dead and needs the additional Breaths to maintain the Returned’s body (according to a WoB I’m too lazy to track down).

 

Awakeners OTOH have an ongoing Connection to Endowment. Their power grows as they acquire additional Breaths. Their SpiritWeb includes this Connection, unlike Returned.

 

Blightsong concludes that Divine Breath is “its own magic system, separate from Awakening but similar.” This is a fair way of looking at these differences. While I may be engaging in semantics, I nonetheless prefer to think of a single Shardworld’s interactions with a single Shard as creating only one Magic System. In both cases, Endowment “endows life,” whether to dead people (Divine Breath) or inanimate objects (Awakening). We deem Surgebinding as one Magic System and the Metallic Arts as three Magic Systems even though both have multiple variants. Again, though, this is just word play that I don’t feel strongly about.
 

3. The Meaning of “Living” Investiture

 

I addressed this in an earlier post on this thread, but that was before I concluded that the Powers of Creation are now part of a Shard’s Spiritual Investiture. Since Master_Moridin again raises the issue, I feel the need to further clarify. (You’d think a Forsaken would know…)

 

Not all Splinters are “alive” in the sense they have personality and the capacity for independent thought and feeling – the way Syl and Pattern behave. Self-awareness simply means that a Splinter is capable of directing its own power. Sazed says, “I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place – but I believe they were not there originally.” (HoA Chapter 55 Epigraph.) His comment suggests that “thoughts and personalities” are unnecessary to the exercise of power.

 

Brandon recently explained how human interactions cause Splinters to have “thoughts and personalities” (at [14:53], emphasis added):

 

The general fundamental rules that create spren are Cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. The power develops personality and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen…in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the Cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you’ve seen this happen most commonly are Sel and…Roshar. You haven’t seen it on Scadrial, but you’ve seen little kind of hints of it on Nalthis, but not quite. But it’s possible for it to happen anywhere.

 

The combination of Cognitive Realm Investiture (human thought and interactions) with a Splinter gives it “life” and personality. Aons and Divine Breath themselves are not “alive,” though they may be self-aware. Seons are “alive” because human “thoughts and interactions” cause Cognitive Realm Investiture to develop and enfold the Aon at the seon’s core. IMO the “little kind of hints of it on Nalthis” refers to the Returned, which function like seons, except with Divine Breath – the mind of a Returned bonds with Divine Breath to give it “personality.” Sapient spren on Roshar – which are Splinters – also have personality because of their human interactions. They too combine a Splinter with Cognitive Realm Investiture.

 

To summarize, “living Investiture” like spren means Investiture that has developed its own personality and “life.” Splinter “self-awareness” refers only to the capacity of Splinters to direct their own power.

[Argel he/him]

While I may be engaging in semantics, I nonetheless prefer to think of a single Shardworld’s interactions with a single Shard as creating only one Magic System.

 

So for Scadrial, are you theorizing that at least one magic system is due to interactions with both shards?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

So for Scadrial, are you theorizing that at least one magic system is due to interactions with both shards?

That wouldn't be a theory, Feruchemy is confirmed to be a result of the interaction between Ruin and Preservation.