Roshar vs Scadrial

[Darkness Ascendant]

Just now, Rich2244 said:

Very interested by the ruining Roshar idea,  my thought is that since Ruin created humans on Scadrial not Roshar he (it?) would be more concerned with Ruining Scadrial and would therefore 'support' a Rosharan invasion while Preservation would try to preserve Scadrial opposing each other. 

 

hmmm didn't think of it that way. Interesting.Then Harmony would cancel itself out and make no difference. So it is really up to the inhabitants. In this case, if Roshar invaded Scadrial, Roshar would win due to superior battle tactics being a generally warring planet. Whereas if Scadrial invaded Roshar in a Skrull manner, then Scadrial would win as they seem to have an abundant of crafty and manipulative people.

[asterion137]

4 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

hmmm didn't think of it that way. Interesting.Then Harmony would cancel itself out and make no difference. So it is really up to the inhabitants. In this case, if Roshar invaded Scadrial, Roshar would win due to superior battle tactics being a generally warring planet. 

in which case the old arguments come up with Scadrial outnumbering them three to one and having more magic users, commanding an army of over 300,000 ten-foot troll soldiers, and being generally stronger due to Scadrial's stronger gravity

Edited June 17, 2016 by asterion137
unsticky logic

[Darkness Ascendant]

16 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

in which case the old arguments come up with Scadrial outnumbering them three to one and having more magic users, commanding an army of over 300,000 ten-foot troll soldiers, and being generally stronger due to Scadrial's stronger gravity

Yeah..but...shardblades mate..how can you betray them like this!!??

jk

[Argel]

I've always seen "Ruin" as synonymous with "Entropy" and the intent seems to behave that way. I don't think an outright, clear cut, no doubts about invasion would be a problem for Harmony to deal with and I don't think he would need to hold his power back. Keep in mind that the Intent of Harmony has not completely overwhelmed him (we have a WoB on that).

And there is nothing in any of the books or meta-knowledge to suggest Sazed would even think about ruining Scadrial except under very, very extreme circumstances.

[Rich2244]

10 hours ago, Argel said:

I've always seen "Ruin" as synonymous with "Entropy" and the intent seems to behave that way. I don't think an outright, clear cut, no doubts about invasion would be a problem for Harmony to deal with and I don't think he would need to hold his power back. Keep in mind that the Intent of Harmony has not completely overwhelmed him (we have a WoB on that).

And there is nothing in any of the books or meta-knowledge to suggest Sazed would even think about ruining Scadrial except under very, very extreme circumstances.

Could you please explain what you define entropy as? My definition of it would be sort of like undisciplined and unruly which doesn't really fit with your statement. 

I think I might have said earlier surely an invasion is 100% aligned with Ruin and opposed to preservation, so surely that would mean harmony is at his highest possible level of internal conflict, difficulty to act whatever you want to call it.

My interpretation of the WoB that you referenced was that Sazed was originally 100% preservation alighned before becoming Harmony and he is gradually becoming TRUE HARMONY, caps for emphasis not shouting, which would be exactly 50/50. Forgive me for a mathematical reference but I see it as him tending towards what I have called true harmony, always every year for example he progresses halfway from his current point towards true harmony. Please ask for more detailed explanation of that doesn't make sense.

So he is always going to be more Preservation but often in such a minute way that it is impossible for him to act in any significant way. 

What ive called true Harmony would be unable to act at all unless somehow Ruin and Preservation were Aligned e.g if someone directly threatened Sazed.

I realise a lot of that is my interpretation though, not nessicarily proven canon, though I believe it does fit quite nicely with what we do know to be canon.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Rich2244

[asterion137]

49 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Could you please explain what you define entropy as? My definition of it would be sort of like undisciplined and unruly which doesn't really fit with your statement. 

I think I might have said earlier surely an invasion is 100% aligned with Ruin and opposed to preservation, so surely that would mean harmony is at his highest possible level of internal conflict, difficulty to act whatever you want to call it.

My interpretation of the WoB that you referenced was that Sazed was originally 100% preservation alighned before becoming Harmony and he is gradually becoming TRUE HARMONY, caps for emphasis not shouting, which would be exactly 50/50. Forgive me for a mathematical reference but I see it as him tending towards what I have called true harmony, always every year for example he progresses halfway from his current point towards true harmony. Please ask for more detailed explanation of that doesn't make sense.

So he is always going to be more Preservation but often in such a minute way that it is impossible for him to act in any significant way. 

What ive called true Harmony would be unable to act at all unless somehow Ruin and Preservation were Aligned e.g if someone directly threatened Sazed.

I realise a lot of that is my interpretation though, not nessicarily proven canon, though I believe it does fit quite nicely with what we do know to be canon.

Well if he was 100% preservation aligned then he wouldn't have been able to pick up Ruin. The only way he could have picked up both is if he was connected to both. Sure he may have wanted preservation but he also recognized the need for destruction to happen.

I think Sazed can (and does) act when his planet/people are being threatened as well. The "red smoke" in BoM is an example of this. If Sazed only cared about protecting himself he could just leave Scadrial.

 

 

 

[Rich2244]

9 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

Well if he was 100% preservation aligned then he wouldn't have been able to pick up Ruin. The only way he could have picked up both is if he was connected to both. Sure he may have wanted preservation but he also recognized the need for destruction to happen.

I think Sazed can (and does) act when his planet/people are being threatened as well. The "red smoke" in BoM is an example of this. If Sazed only cared about protecting himself he could just leave Scadrial.

 

 

 

Apologies I think you may have misunderstood my meaning, when I said 100% preservation aligned I meant he had no qualms that the course preservation wanted was also the course he found preferable.

Of course he can act, my point is just that he can't directly intervene, he has to act through others. Only providing guidance and indirect sort of hints and pushes in the right direction. He can't go all Vin at the end of HoA.

[asterion137]

Just now, Rich2244 said:

Apologies I think you may have misunderstood my meaning, when I said 100% preservation aligned I meant he had no qualms that the course preservation wanted was also the course he found preferable.

Of course he can act, my point is just that he can't directly intervene, he has to act through others. Only providing guidance and indirect sort of hints and pushes in the right direction. He can't go all Vin at the end of HoA.

Well we wouldn't see it if he did act since no one shard can overpower him enough to cause visible effects in AoL. In fact he probably is acting due to him seeming "distracted" in BoM

[Argel]

19 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

Could you please explain what you define entropy as? My definition of it would be sort of like undisciplined and unruly which doesn't really fit with your statement.

Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

19 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

My interpretation of the WoB that you referenced was that Sazed was originally 100% preservation alighned before becoming Harmony

As mentioned, this is not true. He would not be able to pick up both and hold onto them if he did not already have a good connection with both.

Secret History spoiler

Spoiler

This is why Kelsier needed help (that Ire artifact) to hold Preservation (he was more Ruin aligned) and Vin did not (she was basically the one chosen/destined by Preservation)

 

19 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

surely an invasion is 100% aligned with Ruin and opposed to preservation

Why? A field medic trying to save a life is Preservation. If the war is to acquire resources in order for a civilization to survive then the motivation is preservation. If a war is to push back invaders, then the goal is to preserve the entity being invaded.

Sun Tzu says in the Art of War that the ultimate goal of war is peace, which sounds a lot more like Preservation to me.

I don't really get why you think war is totally aligned with Ruin, since most wars are about acquiring something or protecting something. Real-time Strategy games may be about wiping the enemy out, but in the real world, the enemy usually surrenders and is very rarely wiped out. Genocide can occur and can be a goal, but that is not true of every war and may only apply to one side in the conflict.

We can also go with a long term view and say that there will also be periods of peace and periods of war, and thus harmony would have to include both, in which case a war could be necessary to preserve the balance.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Argel
Fix spoiler tag

[Rich2244]

On 18 June 2016 at 7:19 PM, Argel said:

Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

As mentioned, this is not true. He would not be able to pick up both and hold onto them if he did not already have a good connection with both.

Secret History spoiler

  Hide contents

This is why Kelsier needed help (that Ire artifact) to hold Preservation (he was more Ruin aligned) and Vin did not (she was basically the one chosen/destined by Preservation)

 

Why? A field medic trying to save a life is Preservation. If the war is to acquire resources in order for a civilization to survive then the motivation is preservation. If a war is to push back invaders, then the goal is to preserve the entity being invaded.

Sun Tzu says in the Art of War that the ultimate goal of war is peace, which sounds a lot more like Preservation to me.

I don't really get why you think war is totally aligned with Ruin, since most wars are about acquiring something or protecting something. Real-time Strategy games may be about wiping the enemy out, but in the real world, the enemy usually surrenders and is very rarely wiped out. Genocide can occur and can be a goal, but that is not true of every war and may only apply to one side in the conflict.

We can also go with a long term view and say that there will also be periods of peace and periods of war, and thus harmony would have to include both, in which case a war could be necessary to preserve the balance.

All fair points, my reasoning for war being Ruin was that in the original series Ruin seems to grasp at any ongoing conflicts be they war or even just arguments, anything that it can get an agent involved with  and uses that to attempt to spiral out of control. An interstellar war is certainly something that could spiral out of control rapidly especially when you consider that the Thrill seems to be an exaggerated form of berserk. 

I suppose their could be Preservation aligned reasoning for a war, in this situation I just can't see it. Roshar doesn't really have anything Scadrial needs, they could want shards I suppose but that's hardly a need, so their would be no point in invading to gain resources, barring something we don't yet know about. 

If Roshar invaded then obviously it's in Preservations interest to protect Scadrial but at that point wouldn't Ruin want to allow the invasion? 

I think I said an invasion was Ruin aligned not war in general, I just think that Sazed would be unable to act in a large scale conflict of any kind because due to their nature Ruin and Preservation are nearly always opposed, I was just using a single example.

[Argel]

Actually, I think it's a moot point. I believe we have a WoB that if Sazed dropped his shard, he would drop Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation. So we need to discuss things in the context of what Harmony would want, not what Ruin and Preservation would. And there's nothing harmonious about an invasion. Of course, this could make it hard to invade as well, though e.g. if Odium and/or Autonomy were acting against him and he had proof (or at least a preponderance of the evidence), I believe he would be able to respond.

We actually know Odium is worried about/afraid of Harmony and there are things in motion to suppress his knowledge about the Cosmere. If Harmony was unable to do anything, Odium would have nothing to worry about. Instead, he and his allies are treading carefully. Based on that, I don't think it would go well for the invaders....

[asterion137]

6 hours ago, Argel said:

Actually, I think it's a moot point. I believe we have a WoB that if Sazed dropped his shard, he would drop Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation. So we need to discuss things in the context of what Harmony would want, not what Ruin and Preservation would. And there's nothing harmonious about an invasion. Of course, this could make it hard to invade as well, though e.g. if Odium and/or Autonomy were acting against him and he had proof (or at least a preponderance of the evidence), I believe he would be able to respond.

We actually know Odium is worried about/afraid of Harmony and there are things in motion to suppress his knowledge about the Cosmere. If Harmony was unable to do anything, Odium would have nothing to worry about. Instead, he and his allies are treading carefully. Based on that, I don't think it would go well for the invaders....

Harmony isn't really a shard-it's a conglomeration of 2 shards, Ruin and Preservation.

[Jondesu]

56 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

Harmony isn't really a shard-it's a conglomeration of 2 shards, Ruin and Preservation.

As Angel said, it is now a Shard, as well as being a combination. If Adolnasium had shattered into 15 Shards instead of 16, it's conceivable that one could have been what we know as Harmony; the Shards aren't completely distinctive from each other as much as they are just pieces of the same original whole, so merging two is definitely possible. It simply won't be a 100% complete merge for a long time. They're still effectively one Shard now, and would drop as Harmony instead of Ruin and Preservation, per WoB.

jW

[asterion137]

18 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

As Angel said, it is now a Shard, as well as being a combination. If Adolnasium had shattered into 15 Shards instead of 16, it's conceivable that one could have been what we know as Harmony; the Shards aren't completely distinctive from each other as much as they are just pieces of the same original whole, so merging two is definitely possible. It simply won't be a 100% complete merge for a long time. They're still effectively one Shard now, and would drop as Harmony instead of Ruin and Preservation, per WoB.

jW

Well the intent is not harmony-that would be the same as preservation

[Oversleep]

Anyway, I think the name "Harmony" is misleading. A combination of Cultivation (if she ended up on Scadrial instead of Ruin) and Preservation would be very similar to the one we've got and Sazed would name it "Harmony" anyway. "Harmony" refers only to the fact that the two Shards were opposite to each other, not what their Intents were. We could call mix of Odium and Devotion by the name of "Harmony" too, but it's not terribly helpful.

Intent of Sazed's shard is Harmony between Preservation and Ruin, not Harmony itself.

[Jondesu]

Yeah, I've been trying to think of a name that would encompass that new combination of intents, but no luck yet.

jW

[Darkness Ascendant]

8 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Anyway, I think the name "Harmony" is misleading. A combination of Cultivation (if she ended up on Scadrial instead of Ruin) and Preservation would be very similar to the one we've got and Sazed would name it "Harmony" anyway. "Harmony" refers only to the fact that the two Shards were opposite to each other, not what their Intents were. We could call mix of Odium and Devotion by the name of "Harmony" too, but it's not terribly helpful.

Intent of Sazed's shard is Harmony between Preservation and Ruin, not Harmony itself.

Might as well call it Balance then :).

But we are straying from the point here. 

Scadrial has Harmony, Roshar has a dead Honor and a hiding Cultivation

Scadrial has Koloss,Roshar has shardbearers

Scadrial has Allomany, Roshar has Surgebinding

Scadrial has Compounders, Roshar has Radiants

Scadrial has other beings (like Ironeyes, what's the deal with him anyway?), Roshar has the Nightwatcher and Radiants

Tbh, it would be a really close fight, unless Harmony strayed more to Ruin's path and subjectively "ruined" Roshar.

[Rasarr]

Long post alert.

2 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

Might as well call it Balance then :).

But we are straying from the point here. 

Scadrial has Harmony, Roshar has a dead Honor and a hiding Cultivation

Scadrial has Koloss,Roshar has shardbearers

Scadrial has Allomany, Roshar has Surgebinding

Scadrial has Compounders, Roshar has Radiants

Scadrial has other beings (like Ironeyes, what's the deal with him anyway?), Roshar has the Nightwatcher and Radiants

Tbh, it would be a really close fight, unless Harmony strayed more to Ruin's path and subjectively "ruined" Roshar.

You're not taking numbers into consideration. There are, counting conservatively, thousands of Koloss and less than a hundred Shardblades (Coppermind gives 20 for Alethkar, 20 for Jah Keved, 40 for the rest of the world). There are some tens of thousands of Allomancers and Ferrings, as well as several Compounders (several dozen?), against six known Surgebinders, three of which are not in the same place the rest of them, and four of which don't have the capability to travel fast - capacity which Scadrial allomancers and ferrings don't need because with their numbers, they can be everywhere.

As for Cultivation, she doesn't seem very interested in preventing destruction by Voidbringers; I don't see her coming out of hiding just because destruction is coming from another world this time. Nightwatcher and Ironeyes seem to be rather similar in terms of just how helpful they are - the Nightwatcher may just as well punish those who seek help with a bane that renders it useless, and Ironeyes doesn't seem to be going out much these days (though of course we don't know just what's happenning behind the scenes). Either way, I wouldn't count them as assets on either side.

Even if we make Shardbearers really overpowered and say that every Shardbearer is worth 50 Koloss, there are still many more Koloss. Even if one Radiant is worth a hundred Allomancers, there are still more Allomancers. Unless we count Voidbringers - and we don't really know what they do yet - then Scadrial has, IMO, a distinct advantage over Roshar in magic department. The regular military forces of Roshar are far more intersting, as they have more experience and more evolved tactics, so they might pull the tide over to Roshar's side - at least until Radiants and Sharbearers are dealt with and Allomancers and Koloss can join regular combat. If Scadrial played defensively, though, the army might have a problem operating in Elendel. Somehow, I don't see Rosharans being used to urban combat, whereas Scadrians, with their knowledge of the city and weapons that let them snipe the enemy from high floors - not to mention the capability to block any streets they wish  - would be capable of playing them like a fiddle.

Unless we're talking Lord Ruler-era Scadrial - I admit I'm quite at lost as to which time period exactly we're discussing. If we're talking Lord Ruler era, we can guess there were more Shardblades back then (two hundred, then? just guessing), but no Surgebinders. In this case, Scadrial gets a well-controlled army of Koloss and the Lord Ruler himself, who, as previously discussed, is a game breaker. For all we know, TLR could just end all Shardbearers himself and then leave the mundane army to be picked off by Koloss.

Lord Ruler era versus modern Roshar gives Rosharans those six Surgebinders of theirs, but again, he's idiotically powerful. Unless he lets someone get close enough to tear off his atiumminds, he could probably wipe the floor with each and every single one of them - except perhaps Jasnah, who could escape to Shadesmar and attempt to Soulcast him from there. Still, I don't think she'd be capable of Soulcasting someone as invested as TLR.

Quite honestly, the only situation where I see Roshar winning would be pre-Recreance Roshar vs. Scadrial of any era. The thousands of Radiants of the time would probably be capable of destroying Lord Ruler, and then routing the rest of Scadrian forces would be fairly easy. Likewise, if era 2 Scadrial was the aggressor, the Radiants could beat them quite handily. If we want to keep this time period-appropriate, Radiant-ful Roshar vs. Classical Scadrial would be even more laughably one-sided.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Rasarr

[Darkness Ascendant]

1 hour ago, Rasarr said:

Long post alert.

You're not taking numbers into consideration. There are, counting conservatively, thousands of Koloss and less than a hundred Shardblades (Coppermind gives 20 for Alethkar, 20 for Jah Keved, 40 for the rest of the world). There are some tens of thousands of Allomancers and Ferrings, as well as several Compounders (several dozen?), against six known Surgebinders, three of which are not in the same place the rest of them, and four of which don't have the capability to travel fast - capacity which Scadrial allomancers and ferrings don't need because with their numbers, they can be everywhere.

As for Cultivation, she doesn't seem very interested in preventing destruction by Voidbringers; I don't see her coming out of hiding just because destruction is coming from another world this time. Nightwatcher and Ironeyes seem to be rather similar in terms of just how helpful they are - the Nightwatcher may just as well punish those who seek help with a bane that renders it useless, and Ironeyes doesn't seem to be going out much these days (though of course we don't know just what's happenning behind the scenes). Either way, I wouldn't count them as assets on either side.

Even if we make Shardbearers really overpowered and say that every Shardbearer is worth 50 Koloss, there are still many more Koloss. Even if one Radiant is worth a hundred Allomancers, there are still more Allomancers. Unless we count Voidbringers - and we don't really know what they do yet - then Scadrial has, IMO, a distinct advantage over Roshar in magic department. The regular military forces of Roshar are far more intersting, as they have more experience and more evolved tactics, so they might pull the tide over to Roshar's side - at least until Radiants and Sharbearers are dealt with and Allomancers and Koloss can join regular combat. If Scadrial played defensively, though, the army might have a problem operating in Elendel. Somehow, I don't see Rosharans being used to urban combat, whereas Scadrians, with their knowledge of the city and weapons that let them snipe the enemy from high floors - not to mention the capability to block any streets they wish  - would be capable of playing them like a fiddle.

Unless we're talking Lord Ruler-era Scadrial - I admit I'm quite at lost as to which time period exactly we're discussing. If we're talking Lord Ruler era, we can guess there were more Shardblades back then (two hundred, then? just guessing), but no Surgebinders. In this case, Scadrial gets a well-controlled army of Koloss and the Lord Ruler himself, who, as previously discussed, is a game breaker. For all we know, TLR could just end all Shardbearers himself and then leave the mundane army to be picked off by Koloss.

Lord Ruler era versus modern Roshar gives Rosharans those six Surgebinders of theirs, but again, he's idiotically powerful. Unless he lets someone get close enough to tear off his atiumminds, he could probably wipe the floor with each and every single one of them - except perhaps Jasnah, who could escape to Shadesmar and attempt to Soulcast him from there. Still, I don't think she'd be capable of Soulcasting someone as invested as TLR.

Quite honestly, the only situation where I see Roshar winning would be pre-Recreance Roshar vs. Scadrial of any era. The thousands of Radiants of the time would probably be capable of destroying Lord Ruler, and then routing the rest of Scadrian forces would be fairly easy. Likewise, if era 2 Scadrial was the aggressor, the Radiants could beat them quite handily. If we want to keep this time period-appropriate, Radiant-ful Roshar vs. Classical Scadrial would be even more laughably one-sided.

Ah I meant it as a way of listing what each side has. Not in numbers.

Also, we must take events in order as well. The Everstorm on Roshar is a serious weakness. 

[Rich2244]

I think the main problem with this discussion at the moment and the reason that without theorising wild scenarios Scadrial comes out on top is that we have had 6 books worth of character and world development plus novellas vs only 2, when the first 5 Stormlight books are done I have no doubt that it will be a much more even playing field. You only have to look at the technology increase in the first two books to see where it's going. Living shardblades Navani's fabrials ect

[Darkness Ascendant]

7 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

I think the main problem with this discussion at the moment and the reason that without theorising wild scenarios Scadrial comes out on top is that we have had 6 books worth of character and world development plus novellas vs only 2, when the first 5 Stormlight books are done I have no doubt that it will be a much more even playing field. You only have to look at the technology increase in the first two books to see where it's going. Living shardblades Navani's fabrials ect

true true. Not to mention the return of the Radiants, the half -shards.The Herald etc etc

[asterion137]

On 6/21/2016 at 6:16 AM, Rich2244 said:

I think the main problem with this discussion at the moment and the reason that without theorising wild scenarios Scadrial comes out on top is that we have had 6 books worth of character and world development plus novellas vs only 2, when the first 5 Stormlight books are done I have no doubt that it will be a much more even playing field. You only have to look at the technology increase in the first two books to see where it's going. Living shardblades Navani's fabrials ect

as long as the Rosharians aren't all dead by the end of Book 5

[Rich2244]

3 hours ago, asterion137 said:

as long as the Rosharians aren't all dead by the end of Book 5

Kind of a pointless comment, we know there is a second series and so far Sanderson has always written 'happy endings' to his books.

[asterion137]

7 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

Kind of a pointless comment, we know there is a second series and so far Sanderson has always written 'happy endings' to his books.

except for mistborn era 1, where 95% of the population dies, as well as the two main characters

[Pathfinder]

8 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

Kind of a pointless comment, we know there is a second series and so far Sanderson has always written 'happy endings' to his books.

Books of Sanderson that do not end with a "happy ending" (as in everybody lived happily ever after)

Sixth of Dusk

Spoiler

Although the machine was stopped, it was still activated and gave the Ones Above an excuse to be more invasive as they planned. Only hope is that Sixth and his friend (forgot her name), are aware of the manipulation and will try to fight it

Alcatraz

Spoiler

Pretty much the end of every single book ends up with the situation worse off than it began. 

Mistborn as was pointed out

 

So not all of his books resolve with a "happy ending"