Hemalurgy is no longer of great interest to the Cosmere?

[Pechvarry]

I'm not sure what is hard to understand here. Gaining powers is only one of countless ways to use hemalurgy. 

I understood.  You're taking a niche thing (ability to make supervillains - and by that I mean characters who would make chimaeras) and making it out to be something that defines the system, when we both know its claim to fame has always been the ability to take the use of other magic systems. See last sentence of post though.

 

Well here is a question. Let us say, that every medallion and the bands were suddenly destroyed or lost. Without hemalurgy, unless the excisors work in a way we do not know, how would you make more medallions? The medallions need someone with all of the powers to make medallions for other powers. And then using more medallions to make more medallions. But since in the current era, to our knowledge there does not exist a fullborn. Or at least one at hand. Then how would you start the medallion process over without hemalurgy?

It's not like I'm trying to come off like a jerk but... I made this very point in the text you even quoted.  To be fair, it was a big post without a TL;DR.  I can't fault you skimming.

 

You did ask for refutation in the OP, to be fair.

Point!  And I thank you for refuting me in a way that at least acknowledges my points.

 

Incidentally, I feel compelled to mention that I'm still a huge proponent of my proposed pewter bullets to kill Bloodmakers.  The shooter just needs incredible aim and, probably, some perfect mechanism of seeing the spirit realm.  And Intent.

 

But, speaking of Pewterdragging and Steelpushing, I guess I just need to accept that airplanes and guns already obsolete a lot of uses for the established magics.  Why should Hemalurgy be any different?

 

Maybe that's the healthy end of this thread: yeah, Hemalurgy isn't a snowflake anymore.  It still has its uses, but as natc points out -- they're just not the ones I wanted.  Times, they are-a-changin'.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Pechvarry

[Landis963 he/him]

Incidentally, I feel compelled to mention that I'm still a huge proponent of my proposed pewter bullets to kill Bloodmakers.  The shooter just needs incredible aim and, probably, some perfect mechanism of seeing the spirit realm.  And Intent.

 

Unless you use something like a harpoon that punches all the way through the heart a la the original method of hitting all the bind points on the heart at once.  You'd still need incredible aim in order to steal it reliably, but there you are.  

[Pathfinder]

It's not like I'm trying to come off like a jerk but... I made this very point in the text you even quoted.  To be fair, it was a big post without a TL;DR.  I can't fault you skimming.

 

I understood, but that point is not just a minor pro. The original post stated why wouldn't hemalurgy be phased out in favor of medallions and that is a huge reason why. When preventing an entire system from collapsing depends on an entirely other system, that is a rather big reason to keep it around. I asked the question that way because as you stated, unless someone decides to use the well, medallion and hemalurgy will always be linked. So unless you can think of a way to make medallions from scratch without hemalurgy, then it will never go the way of the dodo. 

[natc]

Stealing magic would probably always be the most efficient use for it, I guess.

But really, that might be a claim to fane, but hemalurgy deals with the rest of the soul as well, and most of a soul is presumably mundane stuff. It basically is the system's definition; splicing of spiritual genes. Moving powers around is a very specialized application of it, but the other extreme is there as well and can achieve what the former can't. Really, it's more of the same thing. TenSoon with OreSeur's spikes was stronger than the bodies he made should have been. Koloss can metabolize dirt. Even non-magic spikes can seemingly defy physics.

And yeah, what Pathfinder said.

[Nethseäar he/him]

But, speaking of Pewterdragging and Steelpushing, I guess I just need to accept that airplanes and guns already obsolete a lot of uses for the established magics.  Why should Hemalurgy be any different?

 

Maybe that's the healthy end of this thread: yeah, Hemalurgy isn't a snowflake anymore.  It still has its uses, but as natc points out -- they're just not the ones I wanted.  Times, they are-a-changin'.

Very good point, and one that I tend to gloss over. The powers will be less unique/exclusive with advancing tech -- and with medallions the powers themselves should become pretty commonplace. But I am confident this will only push Sanderson to show us even more unorthodox and awesome uses for the established powers, and I can't wait to see what kinds of tech-assisted combos can be pulled off. Plus I'm very interested in seeing the kind of society widespread use of the Metallic Arts will form. The worldbuilding itself will hold plenty of interest for me.

Good to have discussed the subject with you! Times are, indeed, a-changin'. In all kinds of exciting ways, even if some of those diminish aspects of the magics.

[Dunkum he/him]

The biggest one to me, and I know it has been mentioned a couple times before, is just how much simpler it is to use hemalurgy to transfer different magic systems than it would be to use medallions.  consider that to create the connection medallions, the creator needs to have Nicrosil, duralumin and aluminum ferruchemy: aluminum to store their identity so the medallion is identity neutral, nicrosil so they can store the ability to use ferruchemical duralumin (and ferruchemical nicrosil, for that matter.), and duralumin because you need to have that ability in order to store it (also, to make the medallion useful, you'd probably want to prime it with some stored connection, so the eventual user doesn't have to store it up first).  this is already incredibly difficult to set up in a world where there are no more full ferruchemists (or at least not very many.  not sure we have confirmation on the numbers here)

 

so that basic use is already difficult, but then in order to use medallions to get magic systems from other worlds, you would need someone who is both a ferruchemist (with at least aluminum and nicrosil) and has access to one of those other systems (say a surgebinder).  this is possible, but very very difficult.

 

plus, as has also been mentioned, hemalurgy is more versatile than just stealing magic abilities.  it can also steal things like strength, senses, and whatever it is the blessing of presence steals (i'm assuming this is the same as the Identity trait the aluminum stores, but could be mistaken).  we also have WoB that you can use hemalurgy without killing, though you are still doing damage to the person whose trait you are stealing.

[Mistform]

We should keep in mind what is needed to create the medallions is only educated guesses, not fact. My personal guess is that they have the technology to make them with ferrings only, as it seems unlikely that they have a fullborn.

 

Don't forget that Trell finds Hemalurgy very useful for spiking underlings. Hemalurgy could be of great interest for communicating with Shard holders, or controlling people. So cosmere elements are interested in Hemalurgy.

[natc]

Hemalurgy can also transfer shardblade bonds, IIRC, if one so desires. It will probably work on other splinters too.

[Rich2244]

But that is the problem. If you assume inquisitors have copper to protect them from control emotional allomancy, then why was Vin, who was only spiked for seeking, able to do so? The alternatives are either one, they did not have copper, two they had copper but chose not to burn it, or three copper does not prevent control over a hemalurgic construct via emotional allomancy. Now it could be pointed out she used duralumin, but that was commented in the books to only allow her to reach the level of a soother rioter of old times. So then any misting in the old times would have been able to control the inquisitors as well as the kandra.

Vin was able to control Koloss with duralumin, they only had 4 spikes, if marsh wasn't using copper it would have been trivial for her to control him, by book 3 he had over 20 spikes. The copper would just offset that amount to be more like 1-2

[Yata he/him]

Vin was able to control Koloss with duralumin, they only had 4 spikes, if marsh wasn't using copper it would have been trivial for her to control him, by book 3 he had over 20 spikes. The copper would just offset that amount to be more like 1-2

And if I rememeber right an Allomancer can't use Bronze and Copper at the same time, therefore maybe Marsh was simply searching something

[Dracnor he/him]

Vin was able to control Koloss with duralumin, they only had 4 spikes, if marsh wasn't using copper it would have been trivial for her to control him, by book 3 he had over 20 spikes. The copper would just offset that amount to be more like 1-2

I thought it was implied in HoA that Vin couldn't control him because Ruin already was, Vin not being powerfull enough to overcome Ruin control. After all, she could control a kandra, and they have only two spikes.

[Yata he/him]

I thought it was implied in HoA that Vin couldn't control him because Ruin already was, Vin not being powerfull enough to overcome Ruin control. After all, she could control a kandra, and they have only two spikes.

As far as we saw a Kandra have less defense than an Human... just 2 Spikes are enough to control them while Humans need 4 Spikes to be controlled.

[Pathfinder]

Well subsequent kandra (excluding the first generation) aren't technically really of the human species anymore even before getting spikes so it would make sense for them to be weaker, or work slightly different. Could the 4 spike rule be like the capstone? Like after 4 spikes, it doesn't matter how many more you get? Like it doesn't matter if you have five vs 10, once you break the 4 spike threshold, you are vulnerable the same amount. Just throwing out some possibilities. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata he/him]

Well subsequent kandra (excluding the first generation) aren't technically really of the human species anymore even before getting spikes so it would make sense for them to be weaker, or work slightly different. Could the 4 spike rule be like the capstone? Like after 4 spikes, it doesn't matter how many more you get? Like it doesn't matter if you have five vs 10, once you break the 4 spike threshold, you are vulnerable the same amount. Just throwing out some possibilities. 

I don't think, after all Ruin gives more Spikes to Marsh to improve his control on him.

 

Probably the control become more easy as the new Spikes the subject recive. But under a certain treeshold (2 for a Mistwrath and 4 for an Human) you are immune to direct control.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Yata

[Landis963 he/him]

TenSoon had 4 spikes though.  His Blessing, plus OreSeur's.  

[Jondesu he/him]

TenSoon had 4 spikes though.  His Blessing, plus OreSeur's.  

Did TenSoon use them both at once, though?  And if so, was it before or after Ruin showed his hand in directly controlling Hemalurgic creations?  Ruin may simply have been willing to let him do whatever he wanted, confident in his ability to take control of TenSoon and the other Kandra, never knowing they had a way to thwart him.

 

jW

[Yata he/him]

TenSoon had 4 Spikes until He returned to Homeland, He left the extra Spikes before. When Ruin began to take control of Kandra. He had only his 2 Spikes.

 

Anyway we have to remember that TenSoon had Blessings who boost his Mental Fortitude. Therefore He and any other Presence-Blessing's Kandra would be hard to control with their standard 2 Spikes.

[Eki]

TenSoon had 4 Spikes until He returned to Homeland, He left the extra Spikes before. When Ruin began to take control of Kandra. He had only his 2 Spikes.

Anyway we have to remember that TenSoon had Blessings who boost his Mental Fortitude. Therefore He and any other Presence-Blessing's Kandra would be hard to control with their standard 2 Spikes.

He took them back when he went out to find Vin, and I don't think he put them away when he returned with Sazed. I might be wrong though.

[Nyali she/her]

Isn't the huge benefit of Hemalurgy that it can be used to do pretty much anything, while the medallions are confined to the metallic arts? Like, you could spike a Knight Radiant to steal their Nahel Bond (stealing Shardblades is thinking too small, imo), or an Elantrian to become an Elantrian, or an Awakener to steal the Breaths they put into something (and the ability to use them if you need a Nalthis-specific spiritweb for that). Or, heck, spike a larkin and put its investiture-sucking ability into a giraffe from Scadrial to really, really confuse random coinshots who try to travel through the Roughs. Or you can give Duralumin Allomancy to an Edgedancer and let them have fun with Duralumin-enhanced Regrowth. Or Nicrosil Feruchemy to any Knight Radiant so they can store their stormlight for later use, giving them a practically infinite store without needing to carry spheres into battle or worry about them running out.

 

There are just so many fun things you can do with Hemalurgy that you just can't do with pure Feruchemy/Allomancy two-power combos.

[Yata he/him]

@Nyali

Also with Medallions you may do your dirty things... after all if a Nalthis guy has a Nicrosil Medallion.. He may store his Investiture Inside and give to someone of (for example) Sel, a way to awake things.

 

PS: The Breath aren't stealable with Hemalurgy, but probably if you Spike the Owner you have enough Idendity to claim them from an Object where the owner store them.

[Nyali she/her]

@Nyali

Also with Medallions you may do your dirty things... after all if a Nalthis guy has a Nicrosil Medallion.. He may store his Investiture Inside and give to someone of (for example) Sel, a way to awake things.

Is it confirmed that non-Scadrialians, who have no Preservation in them, can use the medallions? I though that was limited to people whose Spiritweb was already keyed to Preservation.

PS: The Breath aren't stealable with Hemalurgy, but probably if you Spike the Owner you have enough Idendity to claim them from an Object where the owner store them.

Yes, that's exactly what I said...

[Yata he/him]

Is it confirmed that non-Scadrialians, who have no Preservation in them, can use the medallions? I though that was limited to people whose Spiritweb was already keyed to Preservation.

Yes, that's exactly what I said...

Sorry I misread your point about Awakening

 

Anyway we don't have any evidence about a Preservation keyed Soul needed to use Medallion technology. Well we may have some kind of evidence about "everyone may use it" but it's just a theory and probably this is the wrong subforum to post it.

[Pechvarry]

Is it confirmed that non-Scadrialians, who have no Preservation in them, can use the medallions? I though that was limited to people whose Spiritweb was already keyed to Preservation.

Isn't that kind of the point of the whole unkeyed medallion, though?  I acknowledge that "unkeyed" may just be "low enough identity requirement that anyone with Preservation/Ruin in their soul will do the trick" though.  But I don't see any sort of implied barrier that would cut out worldhoppers.  And storing the right kind of Connection while creating an unkeyed medallion might be possible to create medallions keyed to other planets.

 

The friction between the 2 methods seems thus: Hemalurgy is easier to use to combine Cosmere powers IF you have perfect knowledge of bind points.  That extra hoop (which we have yet to see demonstrated) makes the many hurdles of the medallion method more plausible.  

 

It's like saying telekinesis is easier than lifting stuff physically -- technically true, but worthless knowledge until you figure out how to become telekinetic.  But it's starting to seem more and more like proper "spirit realm" glimpsing abilities could push this towards feasible.  

 

Either way, I do acknowledge that IF you can Hemalurge the crap out of bindpoints (and you have no conscience), hemalurgy is probably more versatile.

[Nyali she/her]

Well, if Khriss or Nazh could use a coinshot/skimmer medallion, which do exist and are used to prime airships, why would they need to question a Crasher to get data? Wouldn't they be able to just do it on their own? I'm not sure I'd believe that they don't know about the southern peoples.

[Yata he/him]

Well, if Khriss or Nazh could use a coinshot/skimmer medallion, which do exist and are used to prime airships, why would they need to question a Crasher to get data? Wouldn't they be able to just do it on their own? I'm not sure I'd believe that they don't know about the southern peoples.

As far as we saw, the Southern have not mixed Allomancy-Feruchemy Medallions or if that combination of Powers is bein produced by the Southern

 

And we don't know if Nazh and Khriss have the knowledge of Southern at all.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Yata