Hemalurgy is no longer of great interest to the Cosmere?

[Pechvarry]

Anyone else feel this way after reading BoM?  What's the point of Hemalurgy when you have the southern Scadrian trick?  Even the Set says "well, this makes our massive amount of time and murder invested into Hemalurgy seem crappy." (paraphrased.  barely)

 

Yeah, there are still the attribute spikes, but they're also the ones that tend to warp people the worst.  All in all, it seems like Ruin's legacy is getting the raw end of the deal.

 

Thoughts?  Refutation?

Edited March 31, 2016 by Pechvarry

[Yata he/him]

Until we saw how difficoult is to create a Medallion we can't say anything about.

 

If they need the tools that Kel lefted to them to make Medallions, this kind of device will be pretty limitated, without talking about the mix of power where the medallion's technology is pretty behind.

 

The Hemalurgy has its own use and flexibility that the medalion probably can't reach, of course the Hemalurgy is less "cheap"

[Your3rdShadow he/him]

Also consider that Hemalurgy works on "Every" magic, not just Scadrial's, there's a WoB somewhere that states he designed Hemalurgy with the intent to use it later on when the Cosmere start's mixing.

[kenod]

A second thing to consider is that hemalurgy doesn't just have the ability to steal powers, but also to mutate other creatures. I have a theory that this could have even been Ruins original use, or at least an intended side effect to make sure it can also stand on its own.

Edited March 31, 2016 by kenod

[Pathfinder]

Also add to it that a medallion can be pulled off without killing the user. All that is holding it on is a strap to the arm. Spike would be rather more difficult to remove. 

[Pechvarry]

None of that overwhelmingly puts the ball in Hemalurgy's court.  Mutating creatures is a downside, being strapped on instead of stabbed is a small loss on the individual level but a massive gain on the societal scale, not having to MURDER PEOPLE is an amazing benefit.  The technology clearly has a lot of room to grow (FTL much?), and there's absolutely no reason to assume it only works with the Metallic Arts.  In fact, every indication points at Connection tapping making you able to use any Selish magic that happens to exist in your current neighborhood.

 

I have a feeling the biggest benefit of Hemalurgy is getting the medallion process started.  

[BrightVoid he/him]

Keep in mind also that you can have multiple spikes in at the same time, which is a possibility for medallions, but they are not there yet.  Stack this with spikes being able to take advantage of any magic system, not just scadrials.  One thing also to consider is spikes are much more advantageous for the protagonist group as Harmony will be able to control them if they have 2+ spikes or talk to them with 1. 

[Landis963 he/him]

In fact, every indication points at Connection tapping making you able to use any Selish magic that happens to exist in your current neighborhood.

 

There's more to it than that, or Hoid would be an Elantrian right about now.  And the nicrosil trick only works for a nicrosil feruchemist (or a full feruchemist, given that we're aiming for jailbreaking the metalmind that happens to contain offworld powers) who also happens to be an Awakener/Radiant/Sand Master/what-have-you.  

[natc]

None of that overwhelmingly puts the ball in Hemalurgy's court. Mutating creatures is a downside, being strapped on instead of stabbed is a small loss on the individual level but a massive gain on the societal scale, not having to MURDER PEOPLE is an amazing benefit. The technology clearly has a lot of room to grow (FTL much?), and there's absolutely no reason to assume it only works with the Metallic Arts. In fact, every indication points at Connection tapping making you able to use any Selish magic that happens to exist in your current neighborhood.

I have a feeling the biggest benefit of Hemalurgy is getting the medallion process started.

Mutating creatures is not really a downside. Koloss armies are rusting wonderful.

Spook says so himself. If anyone ever figures out how this works exactly you can create literally any lifeform you can think of with hemalurgy. It goes far beyond metallic arts. One might even say Inquisitors are the least ambitious of the three named species. Powerful, yes, but simplistic compared to koloss. Then you have Bleeder's creations.

[Nethseäar he/him]

(repeating some of what's already been said, for the sake of summary)

Pros of Hemalurgy:
1 - Involuntary; you can take the power if you can spike the person. No need to coöperate. Also, if you can't coöperate with the person, possibly you also to want them dead, so there's that too.
2 - Simple -- you don't need to go to all the trouble of accumulating Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities for medallion creation and compounding. Just run the target through, run yourself through.

3 - Can grant multiple abilities simultaneously (medallions can, too, but only if the maker has all powers granted, as far as we know -- a point to Hemalurgy for starting medallion creation, though)
4 - Works for any power. (again, so do medallions if the maker is has the abilities -- again, point for starting medallion creation)
5 - Granted ability is permanent. Medallions have limited nicrosil storage capacity, and will eventually run out. Granted, compounding and cheaply available medallions mitigate this.

6 - Harder to lose a spike than a medallion in a fight.
7 - Creature creation. It may not be fun to be a koloss, but it's sure great to have them fighting on your side!
8 - Intel from Harmony / Control by Harmony during critical moments (Marsh can receive physical guidance from Harmony during a fight - it's like atium without atium! May also be a con if you happen to hate Harmony / value your agency -- or a pro if you're on Harmony's side and use Hemalurgy offensively, as with Paalm/Bleeder)
9 - Passive stacking of Allomantic strength (as opposed to Feruchemical 'compounding' of nicrosil -- tapping at 2x -- to double Allomantic strength).
10 - Killing Bloodmakers and other difficult-to-kill beings -- steal their ability to heal while also running them through/shooting them.
11 - Potentially reincarnating Cognitive Shadows. (assumes that Kelsier used Hemalurgy to return to the Physical Realm)

Cons of Hemalurgy:
1 - Need to kill/harm others (not a con if you aren't bound by such petty things as morality . . . and/or have some Invested being you want to kill =-P)

2 - Control by Harmony (not a con if you're on Harmony's side and willing)
3 - Possibility of decay (not a con if you keep the spikes in blood or put them directly in)
4 - Warping of the body (not a con if you don't mind the warping or the warping was intentional, as with creature creation)
5 - Reliance on the spike, as certain spikes will kill you if removed.
6 - Pain/horror

The biggest limiting factor is that the kind of people who are likely to be okay with murder and the use of Hemalurgy are also the kind of people who don't want to be controlled by Harmony. Still, 3 abilities isn't bad, especially if you can also use medallions. After all, why not both? (I mean, aside from that stuff about murder and/or violence)

I think it remains useful, though medallions are also extremely useful, and much more convenient in many ways. I certainly think we'll see more medallions than spikes in the near future. But maybe they'll find ways around Harmony's control, and we already know there are ways of performing Hemalurgy without killing the 'donor.' I wouldn't count Hemalurgic theft out just yet, especially since Sanderson and the Khriss have hinted at its potential usefulness in the future. And I expect we'll also see some more terrifying Hemalurgic constructs, offensive Hemalurgy, and such.

[natc]

Do note that someone with sufficiently strong emotional allomancy (emotional allomancy+nicrosil twinborn, obtained duralumin allomancy from medallions/spikes, maybe nicrobursted allomancers) might be able to control you too, not just Harmony.

But really, permanent theft of anything associated with a person's spiritweb and hemalurgic constructs are enough to be relevant. Medallions are very limited in application in the grand scheme of things. It's a hack for convenience, not versatility.

[Yata he/him]

Do note that someone with sufficiently strong emotional allomancy (emotional allomancy+nicrosil twinborn, obtained duralumin allomancy from medallions/spikes, maybe nicrobursted allomancers) might be able to control you too, not just Harmony.

Someone who used a lot of Spikes, for an Human 4 or more Spike give to a Shard enough control over you, but less are safe.

 

As far as we know a powerful allomancer may take control of you if you have enough Spike but you may protect yourself through A-Copper (both form Hemalurgy or Medallion) or Allumin Hat.

 

Without thinkng about how difficoult would be in the AoL era to find someone with enough strenght to control you...They need a team of Allomancer to overcome your resistence.

[Pathfinder]

Someone who used a lot of Spikes, for an Human 4 or more Spike give to a Shard enough control over you, but less are safe.

 

As far as we know a powerful allomancer may take control of you if you have enough Spike but you may protect yourself through A-Copper (both form Hemalurgy or Medallion) or Allumin Hat.

 

Without thinkng about how difficoult would be in the AoL era to find someone with enough strenght to control you...They need a team of Allomancer to overcome your resistence.

Did marsh have allomantic copper? Because Vin controlled him briefly while Ruin was not paying attention. So if copper would prevent that kind of control while spiked so much, then I wonder why those inquisitors didn't employ it. 

[Yata he/him]

Did marsh have allomantic copper? Because Vin controlled him briefly while Ruin was not paying attention. So if copper would prevent that kind of control while spiked so much, then I wonder why those inquisitors didn't employ it. 

I imagine yes, unless with 11-30 Spikes also a very weak Misting may take control of an Inquisitor...More Spike=more easy to control.... Rashek can't allow that some Ska Rioter take control of an Inquisitor, and we never saw something like that...therefore they have some kind of "protection" to resist better to mind control

Edited April 1, 2016 by Yata

[Pathfinder]

I imagine yes, unless with 11-30 Spikes also a very weak Misting may take control of an Inquisitor...More Spike=more easy to control.... Rashek can't alloy that some Ska Rioter take control of an Inquisitor, and we never saw something like that...therefore they have some kind of "protection" to resist better to mind control

But that is the problem. If you assume inquisitors have copper to protect them from control emotional allomancy, then why was Vin, who was only spiked for seeking, able to do so? The alternatives are either one, they did not have copper, two they had copper but chose not to burn it, or three copper does not prevent control over a hemalurgic construct via emotional allomancy. Now it could be pointed out she used duralumin, but that was commented in the books to only allow her to reach the level of a soother rioter of old times. So then any misting in the old times would have been able to control the inquisitors as well as the kandra. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata he/him]

Do we know if Rashek began the creation of Inquisitors in the first times of his Empire ?

Because maybe he waited until the Allomancer can't control an Inquisitor with copper and in the end in the first centuries of TFE there are too few Allomancer to create Inquisitors.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Yata

[Pechvarry]

Keep in mind also that you can have multiple spikes in at the same time, which is a possibility for medallions, but they are not there yet.  

 

 

Medallions are very limited in application in the grand scheme of things. It's a hack for convenience, not versatility.

I keep seeing this mindset and I just don't understand it!

 

Consider: as a reader, if you woke up on Scadrial, you would know how to Steelpush.  You may lack the born-in ability yourself, but you could practically coach a newly-snapped allomancer yourself!

But you wouldn't have a clue how to Spike someone.

 

Here's the point: if you're talking about the implications of what we know is possible with Hemalurgy, you must do the same with the medallions.  You can't play the "they don't know how" card, and the Bands prove the technology grants far more than convenience.

 

Really, it's just kind of strange that every single post in this thread has defended Hemalurgy, and not a single person has thought along similar lines as me.  Am I coming off like I'm attacking Sanderson's writing or something? 

 

At the end of the day, Hemalurgy's primary benefit is the ability to use powers you weren't born with (or augment those you do).  And if the medallions work the way we think they do, they can perform both of these benefits without killing people.  

 

So in my mind, here's the list of Hemalurgy pros:

• Better for bad guys who hate Harmony
• Better for bad guys who need an excuse to kill people
• Better for bad guys who want mindless killing machines
• Somehow allows cognitive shadows to get a body
• The most probable way to get the medallion process started in any meaningful way (unless you know someone who's used the Well of Ascension recently)

These last 2 points are important and meaningful, but I still feel like Hemalurgy's original value has been stolen (spiked) by a combination of Identity and Investiture Feruchemy.

[Pathfinder]

I keep seeing this mindset and I just don't understand it!

 

Consider: as a reader, if you woke up on Scadrial, you would know how to Steelpush.  You may lack the born-in ability yourself, but you could practically coach a newly-snapped allomancer yourself!

But you wouldn't have a clue how to Spike someone.

 

Here's the point: if you're talking about the implications of what we know is possible with Hemalurgy, you must do the same with the medallions.  You can't play the "they don't know how" card, and the Bands prove the technology grants far more than convenience.

 

Really, it's just kind of strange that every single post in this thread has defended Hemalurgy, and not a single person has thought along similar lines as me.  Am I coming off like I'm attacking Sanderson's writing or something? 

 

At the end of the day, Hemalurgy's primary benefit is the ability to use powers you weren't born with (or augment those you do).  And if the medallions work the way we think they do, they can perform both of these benefits without killing people.  

 

So in my mind, here's the list of Hemalurgy pros:

• Better for bad guys who hate Harmony
• Better for bad guys who need an excuse to kill people
• Better for bad guys who want mindless killing machines
• Somehow allows cognitive shadows to get a body
• The most probable way to get the medallion process started in any meaningful way (unless you know someone who's used the Well of Ascension recently)

These last 2 points are important and meaningful, but I still feel like Hemalurgy's original value has been stolen (spiked) by a combination of Identity and Investiture Feruchemy.

Well here is a question. Let us say, that every medallion and the bands were suddenly destroyed or lost. Without hemalurgy, unless the excisors work in a way we do not know, how would you make more medallions? The medallions need someone with all of the powers to make medallions for other powers. And then using more medallions to make more medallions. But since in the current era, to our knowledge there does not exist a fullborn. Or at least one at hand. Then how would you start the medallion process over without hemalurgy?

Edited April 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata he/him]

Really, it's just kind of strange that every single post in this thread has defended Hemalurgy, and not a single person has thought along similar lines as me.  Am I coming off like I'm attacking Sanderson's writing or something? 

In my post I talk about how the Medallion as Technology was less flexible than the Hemalurgy, not weaker or worst.

 

I like the medallions a lot, but I think there are problems that nobody though still.

 

For example:

- A guy may "destroy" a medallion just with a touch (tapping all the Investiture)

 

- The Medallion Tech need an uncommon base to start (being a Full Feruchemist or more) the production. Of course if everything goes fine we have no problem but imagine to lose the Excisitors & Bands.

 

I see the Medallions as a powerful but fragile tools

Edited April 1, 2016 by Yata

[natc]

Never mind the fact that, as far as we know, medallions are only able to replicate things actually capable of being stored in nicrosil. Namely invested abilities. While powerful, this is far smaller in scope by several orders of magnitude.

I'm not sure what is hard to understand here. Gaining powers is only one of countless ways to use hemalurgy. It can essentially create anything with the right bits and pieces of spiritweb and a large supply of victims to murder for them. We've seen some impressive (if crude) feats from Rashek's constructs already, and so far all those spikes came from one species of human. We can potentially merge lions, dragons, chasmfiends, skyeels . . . hemalurgy is terrifyingly versatile. You can probably even have strangely eloquent and gentlemanly herds of skyeel-style-levitating pewter compounder

chulls singing odes to one's magnificence with a British accent that only need to eat dirt to survive. If anyone could figure out how to make it work.

Major magic systems are not the only thing of interest in the Cosmere you know. Sometimes you just need a biologically impossible creature of some sort. Or you just want to steal a shardblade off of a guy.

Edited April 1, 2016 by natc

[Nethseäar he/him]

Really, it's just kind of strange that every single post in this thread has defended Hemalurgy, and not a single person has thought along similar lines as me.  Am I coming off like I'm attacking Sanderson's writing or something? 

 

At the end of the day, Hemalurgy's primary benefit is the ability to use powers you weren't born with (or augment those you do).  And if the medallions work the way we think they do, they can perform both of these benefits without killing people.  

You did ask for refutation in the OP, to be fair.

I think that medallions highlight the fact that Hemalurgic stealing for your own use is not the only useful aspect of Hemalurgy, and maybe not even the most valuable use (indeed, that use is somewhat diminished by having a new option for obtaining abilities). Yes, I absolutely agree that medallions have huge potential to change everything on Scadrial, and even in the Cosmere. They're a big deal. They mean widespread use of the Metallic Arts, a whole economy of tradeable magic. They also bring us one step closer to FTL. They're great for our heroes, who generally prefer not to kill people for power. But they don't make Hemalurgy irrelevant, not by far.

The offensive uses of Hemalurgy, especially in an era where spikes can be launched from a distance, are great and terrible. Unlike Mistborn, most Invested persons can't Push the spike away. It's great to have a solution for killing rapidly healing opponents.

As natc said, Hemalurgic constructs are infinitely versatile and almost completely unexplored. As Yata said, medallions have notable weaknesses in close combat -- you can easily pull them off or instantly tap all their power with Feruchemical "compounding" (which begs the question: Can multiple people tap -- or store in -- a single unkeyed metalmind simultaneously? also, is there a better term to differentiate using Feruchemy at ≥ 2x from compounding Feruchemy with Allomancy?)

It's worth noting that medallions possibly might not work for non-Scadrians without tricks with Connection or some such. Of course, they may well work just fine for everyone. But in that event, Hemalurgy is suddenly just as interesting for stealing powers for yourself, provided you're non-Scadrian.

I'm thrilled about medallions, as well, and I acknowledge the many wonderful things they bring to the Cosmere. They do, indeed, have notable advantages over Hemalurgy, and I expect they will be far more common. At the same time, I really like the aesthetic and concept of Hemalurgy as a darker sort of magic. It's distinctive and terrifying. I love that Sanderson can use it to tie impossible monsters back to a magic system, rather than just having impossible monsters for the sake of impossible monsters. Hemalurgy makes Steel Inquisitors interesting, and compelling on deeper levels than just their fear-inducing appearance.

I think it would be a shame if this new -- and awesome -- use of Feruchemy completely overshadowed such a unique and fascinating magic system. Based on the hint in the Ars Arcanum, and Sanderson having developed Hemalurgy with Era 3 in mind, I can't believe he would suddenly make it mostly irrelevant. It's like Steelpushing and Pewterdragging -- both can get you where you need to go, both have their drawbacks and advantages. One does not make the other irrelevant, in part because they both have other uses. They're two distinct, awesome powers that just happen to have some overlapping applications. Although, Vin's horseshoe trick does rather put the Steelpush-Ironpull combo far above the usefulness of Pewterdragging . . . Which is why I'm glad Hemalurgy isn't just for stealing powers. In many ways, despite their few drawbacks, medallions do seem to have Hemalurgy beat on that front, provided a Hemalurgic startup.

[Oversleep]

also, is there a better term to differentiate using Feruchemy at ≥ 2x from compounding Feruchemy with Allomancy?)

For tapping at a rate above Standard Tapping Rate (STR- without loss of power for compressing it) I use term 'overtapping'.

 

BTW, I am surprised everyone thinks of Hemalurgy in terms of "murdering people and then spiking yourself".

People. People.

We have a whole magic system dedicated to Spritual Genetical Engineering! There's a lot of room for chimaeras! Imagine spiking a cheetah for it's speed and then shoving the spike into a wolf!

Bonus points for being a Soother/Rioter and being able to control your creations.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Oversleep

[Nethseäar he/him]

For tapping at a rate above Standard Tapping Rate (STR- without loss of power for compressing it) I use term 'overtapping'.

 

BTW, I am surprised everyone thinks of Hemalurgy in terms of "murdering people and then spiking yourself".

People. People.

We have a whole magic system dedicated to Spritual Genetical Engineering! There's a lot of room for chimaeras! Imagine spiking a cheetah for it's speed and then shoving the spike into a wolf!

Bonus points for being a Soother/Rioter and being able to control your creations.

Thanks for the term! I like it, and will henceforth put it to use.

Indeed, those aspects of Hemalurgy are vast and full of possible awesomeness and/or weirdness. Because of Hemalurgy, you can 'uplift' any animal to intelligence. You can have Mistborn Llamas! So, basically, Hemalurgy is the door to Cosmere furries. Infinite abominations can be made, crossing Chasmfiends and Kandra, having wolves that grant Sixth of the Dusk abilities, not to mention every standard Fantasy creature from flying monkeys to centaurs to sphynxes -- on top of everything else, Hemalurgy enables a lot of fun roleplaying/fanfic scenarios, and I imagine we'll get much more interesting, creative uses in coming Cosmere stories.

EDIT: And I've not got any more upvotes today. Tomorrow. Need to get better at managing that limited resource. =-P

Edited April 1, 2016 by Nethseäar

[Oversleep]

Also, murdering people for their powers is a no-no for me. Animals? Not so much. There, a guilt-free Hemalurgy!

Hmm... since we're getting a Wayne Enterprises in the future with help of Tesla's Tarcsel's daughter (which will inevitably result in Batman in the future)... I'm expecting a mad scientist making chimaeras with Hemalurgy. The speed of the cheetah! The strength of the gorrilla! The nose of the wolf! Behold! The ultimate animal!

Or we can expect some official branch of research, State Hemalurgists making chimaeras... Like that one which got his dog to talk!

It says: "Ed...ward..."

Edited April 2, 2016 by Oversleep

[Yata he/him]

Or we can expect some official branch of research, State Hemalurgists making chimaeras... Like that one which got his dog to talk!

You...Monster