A war between Scadrial (era 2) and Roshar

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Basically the only diseases he doesn't seem to have included then are microbial ones

[Alfa he/him]

You can if you have vastly superior military force and technology. And the OP isn't who could conquer the other, just who would win in a war, and this war, unlike the Vengeance pact would probably be decided pretty quickly.

 

Depends what you mean with conquer. Destroy organized government as it was? Easy. Destroy the majority of soldiers? Even easier. Station about a thousand people in every major settlement? Possible, but difficult to organize. Reinforce your supply lines to all those settlements? That can take its time. Fight down the guerilla? About everyone of all the conquerors had their problems with that, even against less developed cultures.

Anyway, the plague won't magically stop at the end of the war, so this war, be it short or long would devastate Roshar more than any desolation.

[happyman he/him]

Basically the only diseases he doesn't seem to have included then are microbial ones

 

Destroying all microbial diseases is probably harder than it sounds.  We have a contingent of perfectly normal bacteria living in us.  If we had a truly infectious disease free world, it probably wouldn't take long for some of them to become pathogens again.

 

Besides, he's half Ruin.  I don't think he wanted to destroy all disease or opposition.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Yeah to destroy microbial diseases permanently you'd basically have to freeze evolution too!

[Voidus]

There is number 32 here: http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727 (don't know how to link directly, sorry!)

It says Harmony healed all physical and genetic ailments, but that wouldn't wipe out the diseases completely.

I think I noticed that one but only saw the name Cett so I skipped past it, good catch, but it doesn't eliminate infectious diseases.

(Like this: http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#32you just add #number to the end of the link)

 

 

Depends what you mean with conquer. Destroy organized government as it was? Easy. Destroy the majority of soldiers? Even easier. Station about a thousand people in every major settlement? Possible, but difficult to organize. Reinforce your supply lines to all those settlements? That can take its time. Fight down the guerilla? About everyone of all the conquerors had their problems with that, even against less developed cultures.

Anyway, the plague won't magically stop at the end of the war, so this war, be it short or long would devastate Roshar more than any desolation.

Oh I definitely agree, but the plague isn't likely to impact the war itself, which is the original question. It would certainly impact what happens but in regards to 'who would win in a war' I'd say that one army or the other would probably be destroyed before the plague really sets in.

[Haelbarde he/him]

Are Shards known to be unaffected by Allomancy?

Shards are Invested objects. Invested Objects are resistant to other investiture (partly why Shardplate is effective against Shardblades). So Coinshots/Lurchers wouldn't be able to do much against anyone with Shardplate or a Sharblade, as far as directly pushing them. 

 

Unknown to most Scadrians but there're enough who know about it for it to be a legitimate problem. There always was, it's just not advisable since it'd probably cause the recipient to go insane.

Well there's the Set, Marasi, Wax, Wayne, the Kandra, the constabulary...

They know of Hemalurgy. They've not practiced hemalurgy. If war broke out, if we assume they start researching/practicing, hemalurgy could come into play, but not immediately.

 

---

 

See the the thing with Coinshots/Lurchers, is all you need is Gravitation surges, and send them falling into the sky. That could well handle them. Depends if a Coinshot can sufficiently slow themselves down from terminal velocity. 

[Voidus]

Shards are Invested objects. Invested Objects are resistant to other investiture (partly why Shardplate is effective against Shardblades). So Coinshots/Lurchers wouldn't be able to do much against anyone with Shardplate or a Sharblade, as far as directly pushing them. 

 

They know of Hemalurgy. They've not practiced hemalurgy. If war broke out, if we assume they start researching/practicing, hemalurgy could come into play, but not immediately.

 

---

 

See the the thing with Coinshots/Lurchers, is all you need is Gravitation surges, and send them falling into the sky. That could well handle them. Depends if a Coinshot can sufficiently slow themselves down from terminal velocity. 

Personally I doubt they would use it, I was just pointing out that plenty of people have the knowledge to try.

Yes but there's perhaps two people capable of utilizing the gravitation surge, and hundreds of coinshots and lurchers. And the ones who do utilize it need to touch their opponent first, which is going to be very difficult and will almost certainly get them killed. And if they're that close then just loping off their soul with a Shardblade would be a lot easier. And you'd need a good amount of Stormlight to prevent them from just slowing themselves down when they're about to land, steelpushes are a fair bit stronger than the force of gravity after all.

[Eki]

They know of Hemalurgy. They've not practiced hemalurgy. If war broke out, if we assume they start researching/practicing, hemalurgy could come into play, but not immediately.

Unless they found some instructions, I doubt they could make practical use of hemalurgy. Any one test would kill the victim, and you'd have to use someone with actual powers to make it useful.

Even if they COULD do research about it, I doubt they would, for ethical reasons. (Well, some people would have no qualms about it, but the general population would) But that's a separate question I guess...

[A Windspren he/him]

If we're going by the current era, remember that Scadrial has no army, and if they were to train 100k troops really quickly to invade a place no one has even heard of, people would start to get suspicious. Plus, there's the problem of Worldhopping that many people, the support infrastructure needed for an army, and constant food shipments to Roshar. Once they end up on Roshar, they either end up in the Purelake (lucky) or the Horneater Peaks (unlucky), and according to Rock, the Shardpool there kills all humans. All of those soldiers are also without nearly any training, like the troops in Kaladin's old army.

[Pathfinder]

Shards are Invested objects. Invested Objects are resistant to other investiture (partly why Shardplate is effective against Shardblades). So Coinshots/Lurchers wouldn't be able to do much against anyone with Shardplate or a Sharblade, as far as directly pushing them. 

 

They know of Hemalurgy. They've not practiced hemalurgy. If war broke out, if we assume they start researching/practicing, hemalurgy could come into play, but not immediately.

 

---

 

See the the thing with Coinshots/Lurchers, is all you need is Gravitation surges, and send them falling into the sky. That could well handle them. Depends if a Coinshot can sufficiently slow themselves down from terminal velocity. 

So you could have two person teams. One a coinshot or lurcher, the other a nicroburst. Sanderson has commented a duralumin fueled push or pull would affect a shardblade.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Pathfinder

[A Windspren he/him]

Yes, but remember that Shardbearers are extremely heavy due to their Shardplate. The Coinshot or Lurcher would be pushed/pulled, instead of the Shards.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Yeah, you'd need whatever Wax is really, and he's pretty rare.

 

Or you could give the Mistings their own armour, but then they lose their flying and manouvrebility.

 

I think the suggestion was that the Shardblades were being targetted though? Constantly attack their grip on them with pushes and force them to waste 10 heartbeats resummoning? Only works for Deadblades

[Pathfinder]

Well we already have hazekillers for mistborn. Why not shardkillers? A group of trained individuals that comprise of a coinshot, a nicroburst, a pewter arm, and a leecher? The coinshot with the nicroburst could continually disarm the shardbearer while the thug focuses his attention, and then the leecher slips in and touches the armor robbing it of all its stormlight. This of course is in reference to shardbearers. A radiant would be an entirely different story. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Well we already have hazekillers for mistborn. Why not shardkillers? A group of trained individuals that comprise of a coinshot, a nicroburst, a pewter arm, and a leecher? The coinshot with the nicroburst could continually disarm the shardbearer while the thug focuses his attention, and then the leecher slips in and touches the armor robbing it of all its stormlight. This of course is in reference to shardbearers. A radiant would be an entirely different story. 

I still think that Non-Radiant Shardbearers would really struggle against just a group of Pewterarms appropriately armed (hammers) and with light armour

 

Add in other Mistings for support and Shardkiller squads would be really effective. But Full Shardbearing Radiants would be VERY hard to kill without Inquisitors/Mistborn

[A Windspren he/him]

Roshar could do a similar thing with fabrials. A squad dedicated to protecting a Shardbearer would have a Repeller fabrial to push away any projectiles that were fired at the Shardbearer, one of those fabrials that can drain/add Stormlight (I forget what they're called, but Hatham used them to make his rings glow only faintly) could be used to refill Shardplate if it gets drained, and a team of archers with glass arrows would kill any Mistings before they could get close to the Shardbearer. Mistings would be detected using Warner fabrials.

 

In any case, the Shardbearer would likely kill the Shardkillers before they even got close to him.

 

If Mistings were to try and push on Shardblades, even with a nicrosil boost, it would only affect the Shardblade a tiny bit, and the strength of Shardplate would help the Shardbearer keep his grip on it. Also, the Sharkillers would have to refill on metals in the middle of a battle.

 

 

As a response to the earlier discussion about whether or not Rosharans could reverse-engineer guns and if Scadrians could make fabrials: It's easy to take apart a gun and see how it works. It would probably take a few months for Navani to have a working gun ready. Fabrials are a different story. If you take apart a fabrial, you get a bunch of metal wire and a glowing gemstone. The Scadrians would have no idea how to build more, as the inner workings of fabrials are barely known even to artifabrians.

 

If someone from Scadrial were to defect to the Roshar side, they would likely be a normal citizen or soldier. Everyone on Scadrial could tell you the basic principal of how guns work, but if a Rosharan were to defect, they would likely be a slave or darkeye. The only ones who know how fabrials work are ardents and artifabrians, and there's not many slaves or unhappy darkeyes among those. It's far more likely that Roshar would develop guns before Scadrial develops fabrials.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Kevino36

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Except Roshar don't have the capacity to do that yet and may never have the capacity to do it, whilst Scadrial could right now

 

 

You massively overestimate the effectiveness of a Shardbearer against someone with Investiture-aided speed and reflexes: It would be like trying to kill a bunch of The-Whitespine-Uncaged-versions of Kaladins (but not holding back and knowing more about their powers). Szeth and Kaladin have demonstrated the ability to dodge multiple Shardblades aimed solely at them with the extra speed of Stormlight

[Pathfinder]

Roshar could do a similar thing with fabrials. A squad dedicated to protecting a Shardbearer would have a Repeller fabrial to push away any projectiles that were fired at the Shardbearer, one of those fabrials that can drain/add Stormlight (I forget what they're called, but Hatham used them to make his rings glow only faintly) could be used to refill Shardplate if it gets drained, and a team of archers with glass arrows would kill any Mistings before they could get close to the Shardbearer. Mistings would be detected using Warner fabrials.

 

I have seen mention of repeller fabrials before. The only such fabrial I could recall was regarding water to keep the bows dry and even then it was almost overwhelmed by the rain. If they had ones that were that strong, why wasn't that made a priority in development for when the Alethi stormed the parshendi with their bridges? Countless lives could have been saved from the use of those. So to leap from wicking away water to stopping bullets I think is a rather big jump. Then assuming you could make fabrials that strong, the amount of stormlight needed to turn aside bullets enough to not hit the target is massive as well as these fabrials were stationary. How would they follow/accompany a charging shardbearer without the fabrial bearer getting killed, or dropped itself? Finally the alarm fabrial shown in the book has a short range. It is a far cry from radar. 

 

In any case, the Shardbearer would likely kill the Shardkillers before they even got close to him.

 

Not if the shardbearer was continually disarmed and pewter is very close to the increase shardplate provides

 

If Mistings were to try and push on Shardblades, even with a nicrosil boost, it would only affect the Shardblade a tiny bit, and the strength of Shardplate would help the Shardbearer keep his grip on it. Also, the Sharkillers would have to refill on metals in the middle of a battle.

 

You know it would only affect it a tiny bit for a fact? The WoB said in order to push on it you could use duralumin. I took that as not nudge it, not make it twitch, or shake, but to push on it. But I admit in that case that is my own interpretation but would like to point out there is no evidence backing up your interpretation either. 

 

As a response to the earlier discussion about whether or not Rosharans could reverse-engineer guns and if Scadrians could make fabrials: It's easy to take apart a gun and see how it works. It would probably take a few months for Navani to have a working gun ready. Fabrials are a different story. If you take apart a fabrial, you get a bunch of metal wire and a glowing gemstone. The Scadrians would have no idea how to build more, as the inner workings of fabrials are barely known even to artifabrians.

 

Given that we do not know how the current Rosharians were able to figure out how to get a soulcaster to work, when they have no clue how to make one themselves, makes this point be unable to be approached from either angle. So cannot argue that Scadrial could or could not figure out making them when Rosharians themselves could not figure it out either. 

 

If someone from Scadrial were to defect to the Roshar side, they would likely be a normal citizen or soldier. Everyone on Scadrial could tell you the basic principal of how guns work, but if a Rosharan were to defect, they would likely be a slave or darkeye. The only ones who know how fabrials work are ardents and artifabrians, and there's not many slaves or unhappy darkeyes among those. It's far more likely that Roshar would develop guns before Scadrial develops fabrials.

 

So ever Scadrialian is a gunsmith? I am born on earth, but I could not assemble you a gun nor mix gunpowder for you and we are even more advanced than Scadrial. So why would any Scadrialian on the street know how to make a gun? Sure a soldier could use a gun, clean a gun, and maintain it, but producing them? Nope. Now continuing on your point. A defecting Rosharian could be welcomed into Scadrialian society. Conversly a defecting Scadrialian who happens to have deep brown eyes would never hold a high position in Alethi hierarchy. Sounds like it is more appealing to jump to Scadrial's side to me. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan he/him]

pewter is very close to the increase shardplate provides

 

Is there a WoB on the equivalence of pewter vs shardplate? Dalinar caught the downward swiping claw of a chasmfiend with shardplate and I cannot imagine a pewter enhanced individual, even flaring pewter, managing the same. Otoh, there might have been some Radiant stuff going on there so perhaps a normal shardbearer would not have been able to catch the claw.

 

Either way, what objective reference do we have for saying pewter and shardplate confer nearly equivalent strength/speed boosts? 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Is there a WoB on the equivalence of pewter vs shardplate? Dalinar caught the downward swiping claw of a chasmfiend with shardplate and I cannot imagine a pewter enhanced individual, even flaring pewter, managing the same. Otoh, there might have been some Radiant stuff going on there so perhaps a normal shardbearer would not have been able to catch the claw.

 

Either way, what objective reference do we have for saying pewter and shardplate confer nearly equivalent strength/speed boosts? 

Aren't we pretty sure Dalinar was proto-Radianting and using Stormlight at the same time? Adolin thinks that was impossible even with Plate

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Aren't we pretty sure Dalinar was proto-Radianting and using Stormlight at the same time? Adolin thinks that was impossible even with Plate

 

I did make a note of that being possible. I am not sure if the "catch the claw" incident involved proto-Radiant stuff or not. I am still very unclear as to how shardplate fits in to the Radiants as Szeth noted that shardplate interfered with his lashings while holding the Honorblade and yet Dalinar's visions clearly showed Radiants, in shardplate, using graviation. As such, I do not know if Dalinar wearing shardplate would interfere with his proto-Radiant abilities or not. Probably not given the hints in the scene but I am not confident enough to make a definitive statement.

 

The main thrust of the question was if we have a WoB correlating the power of pewter burning to shardplate or not.

[Pathfinder]

I did make a note of that being possible. I am not sure if the "catch the claw" incident involved proto-Radiant stuff or not. I am still very unclear as to how shardplate fits in to the Radiants as Szeth noted that shardplate interfered with his lashings while holding the Honorblade and yet Dalinar's visions clearly showed Radiants, in shardplate, using graviation. As such, I do not know if Dalinar wearing shardplate would interfere with his proto-Radiant abilities or not. Probably not given the hints in the scene but I am not confident enough to make a definitive statement.

 

The main thrust of the question was if we have a WoB correlating the power of pewter burning to shardplate or not.

I could have sworn there was something mentioned, but I suck at searching for WoBs. However, there is most definitely a WoB that says pewter roughly doubles your strength, and flaring roughly triples it. There is most definitely a quote in Way of Kings where Dalinar wields a hammer with one hand that takes two men to lift. Also keep in mind, a head but from a pewter flaring Vin exploded an enemy pewter burning's head, while a punch to the face from a shardbearer to Szeths face broke his jaw. That is why I said close to. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Pretty sure we don't, my comparisons are based on how people infusing Stormlight seem to move and how Pewterarms are described as moving in Mistborn, an inherently subjective comparison. And then in the few situations where we have seen Stormlight Speed vs Shardplate, how in the favour of Stormlight speed the fights were (admittedly, Kal and Szeth may not be representative, they also seem to be inherently gifted warriors)

 

I think our views of Shardbearers are overly positive due to the ease of most of their opponents (except the ones who curbstomp them, kill them despite not knowing about their powers and be armed with basically nothing or hold off against several despite lack of weapons and limited capacity to hold and use Stormlight) and Pewterarms are overly negative because we see them fight against ludicrous killing machines (Vin and Kelsier) with a talent for murder and a wide range of skills

 

EDIT: Pathfinder, I'm pretty sure Vin use Duralumin as well as Pewter for that blow

Edited April 4, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I could have sworn there was something mentioned, but I suck at searching for WoBs. However, there is most definitely a WoB that says pewter roughly doubles your strength, and flaring roughly triples it. There is most definitely a quote in Way of Kings where Dalinar wields a hammer with one hand that takes two men to lift. Also keep in mind, a head but from a pewter flaring Vin exploded an enemy pewter burning's head, while a punch to the face from a shardbearer to Szeths face broke his jaw. That is why I said close to. 

 

I suck at searching for them too haha which is why I always ask someone else to look it up for me! 

 

So, two men with four arms hammer is lifted by one arm with shardplate? This is a weird word problem but I think that means shardplate would, using this forumla, quadruple your strength? (4arms to 1arm). Actually, we do not know if a shardbearer could wield a heavier hammer with one arm so 4to1 is the low end for shardplate. E.g. what if a hammer that took three men to wield could be lifted with one arm by a shardbearer but they don't do that because [reasons]?

 

Also, Vin used duralumin with pewter to explode a head. I am not sure of the exact math with duralumin but I would make a rough, wild and inaccurate guesstimate that duralumin gives you at least a 5 times boost over what a regular burn of the same metal would do without duralumin.

Edited April 4, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Pathfinder]

I suck at searching for them too haha which is why I always ask someone else to look it up for me! 

 

So, two men with four arms hammer is lifted by one arm with shardplate? This is a weird word problem but I think that means shardplate would, using this forumla, quadruple your strength? (4arms to 1arm). Actually, we do not know if a shardbearer could wield a heavier hammer with one arm so 4to1 is the low end for shardplate. E.g. what if a hammer that took three men to wield could be lifted with one arm by a shardbearer but they don't do that because [reasons]?

 

Also, Vin used duralumin with pewter to explode a head. I am not sure of the exact math with duralumin but I would make rough, wild and inaccurate guesstimate that duralumin gives you at least a 5 times boost over what a regular burn of the same metal would do without duralumin.

Lol wish there was a place you could just go and type a word in, and every WoB with that word in it would pop up. There is the interview database, but that is far far from comprehensive. 

 

Lol again, it is why I said close. Like IndigoAjah said, I feel like people are overestimating shardplate, and underestimating pewter. Doesn't mean they are equal, but also doesn't mean they are so massively far apart. 

[Jondesu he/him]

So you could have two person teams. One a coinshot or lurcher, the other a nicroburst. Sanderson has commented a duralumin fueled push or pull would affect a shardblade.

Coinshots and Lurchers can't use Duralumin though. They'd need Mistborn for that, which don't exist in current Scadrial.

jW