A Windspren he/him Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 If it was a Crasher, they would be pulled into the Shardblade, which doesn't sound very enjoyable to me.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 If it was a Crasher, they would be pulled into the Shardblade, which doesn't sound very enjoyable to me. Nah, they'd tap weight and push it away without a problem You might be thinking of a Lurcher
CaptainRyan he/him Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 If it was a Crasher, they would be pulled into the Shardblade, which doesn't sound very enjoyable to me. A crasher is a coinshot misting mixed with an iron ferring (think Wax). The idea is that the crasher could increase their weight to mitigate the effects of a powerful nicro-push. On a side note, does a nicro-misting touching a feruchemist/ferring using their ability cause any reaction or is it limited to Allomancy only?
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 A crasher is a coinshot misting mixed with an iron ferring (think Wax). The idea is that the crasher could increase their weight to mitigate the effects of a powerful nicro-push. On a side note, does a nicro-misting touching a feruchemist/ferring using their ability cause any reaction or is it limited to Allomancy only? I don't think we know. I'm going to go with yes, but it's a mix of systems and so not intuitional and so much harder to do
A Windspren he/him Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 Oops, my mistake. It would take a lot of weight though, since Shardbearers weigh something like 1000 stoneweights.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 Yeah, Wax tends to go about filling so he has a lot of weight stored up, but he's individually pretty special and Crashers are very rare (all Twinborn are) so using Crashers isn't a viable policy, really
Voidus Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 Ok, lots of posts here, a couple of points that have been missed:Dalinar uses a warhammer that requires the strength of two men to pick up, Vin (Who is significantly weaker) handily uses swords designed for Koloss who are twice her size and more than five times her strength.Gravity on Roshar is significantly weaker than on Scadrial, it's almost twice as easy to move something there. So even an unenhanced Scadrian soldier is going to be 1.5 times stronger than your average Rosharan soldier. Which would put Vins feat of using Koloss swords somewhere in the region of 7-8 Rosharan soldiers while Dalinars only comparable feat is a warhammer that needs 2.
A Windspren he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Yes, but the warhammer feels like nothing to him, and he's using only one hand to wield it. Plus, we don't know that humans on Roshar are weaker than Scadrians, as even normal people get a bit of Stormlight in their systems. You're also forgetting that Adolin punched through a solid stone wall in the Battle of Narak, which I doubt that Vin could do. Roshar is also smaller than Scadrial, so the atmosphere is thinner. Scadrial's troops would not be used to the oxygen level on Roshar, giving Rosharans an advantage. Also, people on Roshar are significantly taller. The average height for Alethi is around 6 ft. Edited April 5, 2016 by Kevino36
Voidus Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Yes, but the warhammer feels like nothing to him, and he's using only one hand to use it. Plus, we don't know that humans on Roshar are weaker than Scadrians, as even normal people get a bit of Stormlight in their systems. You're also forgetting that Adolin punched through a solid stone wall in the Battle of Narak, which I doubt that Vin could do. Well we do know that they're weaker since they don't seem to be able to lift more, run faster or survive better. Because she's not wearing a suit of armour most of the time, pewter is lacking in comparable durability for sure but in terms of strength I'd say it's pretty even. And way more common. Also just caught up on the Nicro-burst + Coinshot vs. Shardbearers argument. Either the push pushes on Shardblades as much as any Nicrobursted steelpush would in which case there is a problem with staying alive but you will successfully disarm them. Or the push is not as strong due to Investiture resistance, but if it's not then the force is also not that strong on the Misting. Also, there's about 30-40 Shardbearers in the Alethi army IIRC, even if that's 30-40 full sets and the Scadrian army solely consists of the Constabulary and we assume that mistings and ferrings are no more prevalent there than anywhere else then they'd still be fighting a few hundred Metalborn. There'd also probably be a nearly equal number of Steelrunners to Shardbearers, which ends in all of the Shardbearers dying as soon as they appear. 1
CaptainRyan he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Ok, lots of posts here, a couple of points that have been missed: Dalinar uses a warhammer that requires the strength of two men to pick up, Vin (Who is significantly weaker) handily uses swords designed for Koloss who are twice her size and more than five times her strength. Gravity on Roshar is significantly weaker than on Scadrial, it's almost twice as easy to move something there. So even an unenhanced Scadrian soldier is going to be 1.5 times stronger than your average Rosharan soldier. Which would put Vins feat of using Koloss swords somewhere in the region of 7-8 Rosharan soldiers while Dalinars only comparable feat is a warhammer that needs 2. All excellent points Voidus though I do have to ask how we know a Koloss is five times Vin's strength? Is that in-text or a personal estimate? IIRC, Vin wields the Koloss sword two-handed whereas Dalinar wields a 2-man warhammer with only 1 hand with no issues. Then again, I have definitely been known to IIRiC (if I recall incorrectly) haha so please feel free to correct me.
Voidus Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 All excellent points Voidus though I do have to ask how we know a Koloss is five times Vin's strength? Is that in-text or a personal estimate? IIRC, Vin wields the Koloss sword two-handed whereas Dalinar wields a 2-man warhammer with only 1 hand with no issues. Then again, I have definitely been known to IIRiC (if I recall incorrectly) haha so please feel free to correct me. They have four human strength spikes, plus their own strength = 5 times normal human strength (Less a bit because of Hemalurgic decay but more or less 5 still)
CaptainRyan he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) They have four human strength spikes, plus their own strength = 5 times normal human strength (Less a bit because of Hemalurgic decay but more or less 5 still) At the expense of sounding like that guy who constantly says "Prove it!" I will now have to ask about the spike math that just occurred. I did not realize that hemalurgy worked that way - are we sure each spike is simply a +1 human strength? Edited April 5, 2016 by CaptainRyan 1
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Plus once they kill their first set of Shardbearers- hello Shards. Hello Steelrunning Shardbearer 3
CaptainRyan he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Oh wow! A steelrunner with a shardblade would be HORRIFYING! There would be no impact beyond the "slight tug" as they mowed down thousands in moments. *shudder*
Voidus Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 At the expense of sounds like that guy who constantly says "Prove it!" I will now have to ask about the spike math that just occurred. I did not realize that hemalurgy worked that way - are we sure each spike is simply a +1 human strength? Yup. They have four iron spikes, iron steals physical strength.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Does it steal an entire person's worth of strength though? Actually, given the way the Allomatic powers from Spikes work, it probably does...
Voidus Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Does it steal an entire person's worth of strength though? Actually, given the way the Allomatic powers from Spikes work, it probably does... They use the heart as a bind point so I imagine so. It's probably possible to only steal part but somewhat difficult I imagine.
A Windspren he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 According to the proof we've managed to find (you should really read the previous posts), Pewter makes you 2-3 times as strong, while Plate makes you 4-5 times as strong. As for Steelrunners, they would have to store constantly to get more than a few seconds of speed, and even then, they would have a hard time killing a Shardbearer.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Get just outside Blade range. 1 second of x10 speed, dagger through eye slit. Done. Next Shardbearer. Now I have a Shardblade. Took 10 seconds of speed. Simples. The point of Steelrunning is that you don't let it become anything close to a fair fight and you use it in tiny bursts to assassinate Edit: and say 10x speed is too quick. 3x speed is probably quick enough to make the kill, especially if they don't know you can do it. I don't know what Szeth's speed was but he literally toyed with Shardbearers and that was before actually using his Blade or Surges That's the other thing about Brutes, Thugs, Steelrunners etc. Unlike the bloke in shiny, obvious armour, or the blokes who glow, Allomancers and Feruchemists just look like anyone Now if only they had the ability to tap intuitive jumps of logic and processing speed to come up with this kind of structured attack plan... Edited April 5, 2016 by IndigoAjah
Voidus Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 According to the proof we've managed to find (you should really read the previous posts), Pewter makes you 2-3 times as strong, while Plate makes you 4-5 times as strong. As for Steelrunners, they would have to store constantly to get more than a few seconds of speed, and even then, they would have a hard time killing a Shardbearer. Well there's the problem that the average strength on Scadrial is still nearly double that on Roshar, so being as strong as 2-3 Scadrians is probably around the same as 4-5 Rosharans. Also the only conclusion that Plate was 4-5 times was the hammer that takes two people to lift being used by one person, that's really only strictly speaking double strength, yes he then used one hand rather than 2 but given that it is entirely based on hyperbole it's kind of hard to say exactly how much strength it would need, as I mentioned Koloss are 5 times regular strength and Vin could still use their swords. I imagine most Steelrunners would already have a pretty good store and given their status I'm pretty sure they'd be allowed to just sit around storing when they're not fighting. Run up, stab through faceplate, run away, how is that a hard time? (And incidentally that only takes a few seconds worth of speed)
Oversleep Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Voidus, where are you getting that Scadrians are two times stronger than Rosharans? If you're thinking of gravity, Rosharan is 0.7g so Scadrians are 1.43 times stronger. That's less than one and half, not to mention "nearly double".As for the warhammer, it took two strong men to barely lift it. Dalinar can easily swing it with one hand. Please take note of the difference.If he could barely lift it, then he would be as strong as two men. If he could barely lift it with one arm, he would be as strong as four men. If he can easily swing it around for hours, fighting... I'd say 7-8 times stronger.As for the Steelrunners, it would not be as easy as you described. Sharbearers are easily faster than regular mortals. For Steelrunner to run in and stab it would require serious overtapping (as Standard Tapping Rate for steel is normally quite low, let's be generous and say 40%), so tapping above 1.4 would mean loss of the charge.I'm both unqualified and sleepy, so I won't do calculations how fast Steelrunner has to move. Maybe tomorrow.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Just basing it on what we have seen so far. One Steelrunner in combat, who was ridiculously OP as well as it making the Inquisitors and TLR gamebreakers (and I sure hope the Shardhelm gap can't fit a bullet through it). Increased speed OWNING every Shardbearer coming up against it. 10 seconds speed, maybe 20 if we are being generous, to go faster than the Shardbearer can possibly react to and get a stab in his obvious weak point that we have seen used. Saze stores up quite a bit of speed that he uses on his run to Luthadel- it's hard to store but 20 seconds isn't much Interesting side question: does Shardplate keep out Emotional Allomancy? I assume it does. In terms of overall usefulness, Soothers and Rioters could end the battles before they begin, at least at first. And as defeatible as I think Shardbearers are in combat vs Metalborn, as long as you can get to them within 10 seconds pre-battle assassination is a clear option. No Mistborn unfortunately but a Misting crew should have a pretty easy shot at it. Just need good coin shots really. Or a Duralumin Ferring. Store Connection, waltz in unnoticeable. Edited April 5, 2016 by IndigoAjah
Voidus Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Voidus, where are you getting that Scadrians are two times stronger than Rosharans? If you're thinking of gravity, Rosharan is 0.7g so Scadrians are 1.43 times stronger. That's less than one and half, not to mention "nearly double". As for the warhammer, it took two strong men to barely lift it. Dalinar can easily swing it with one hand. Please take note of the difference. If he could barely lift it, then he would be as strong as two men. If he could barely lift it with one arm, he would be as strong as four men. If he can easily swing it around for hours, fighting... I'd say 7-8 times stronger. As for the Steelrunners, it would not be as easy as you described. Sharbearers are easily faster than regular mortals. For Steelrunner to run in and stab it would require serious overtapping (as Standard Tapping Rate for steel is normally quite low, let's be generous and say 40%), so tapping above 1.4 would mean loss of the charge. I'm both unqualified and sleepy, so I won't do calculations how fast Steelrunner has to move. Maybe tomorrow. I was using 1.5 and rounding, there are certain other factors that come into it but that's more or less accurate yeah. If you look at the actual figures I used of still being 4-5 times average Roshar strength that's still accurate, flaring pewter is around 4.5 times regular roshar strength, or 4-5 times. There are a bunch of factors other than how many arms you use that determine how much strength you're using. Using two arms /= two times the strength of using one arm even using one arm you typically use your entire body to put in the effort, adding the second arm only adds the strength of the arm, not the strength of your whole body. Shardbearers are probably slower than thugs, Steelrunner still takes them any day of the week. I'll agree that 40% is around the maximum rate you could store it without risk of harm, and yes compounding that will slightly reduce it but the more you tap it the shorter a period of time you need to tap it for too, a trait somewhat unique to steel feruchemically, so if a fight would normally take you a minute and you tap 10x speed, you'll finish it in 6 seconds (If not even faster) this will more than offset the compounding needed. A fight with a Sharbearer is going to take perhaps a few minutes at most, lets be rather generous and say 5 full minutes of fighting at high speed, since they need to actually reach the Sharbearer too. Bleeder tended to use around 8x and pretty easily dominated most fights, but lets say it's 10x So we need 50 minutes at 100% speed or roughly 2.5 x that at 40% speed, so around 125 minutes. Now lets say the compounding is pretty brutal and takes 3/4 of it so we need 500 minutes or a little over 8 hours, that's easily doable even without relying on whatever stores they've built up.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Why waste speed or risk yourself fighting the Shardbearer? Let them come to you, leading the attacks as always. The Shardbearer has no idea you are a Steelrunner. Wait till they are 6-10 metres away, tap x10 speed and kill them before they can even perceive what is going on It's crazy to fight them head on when it's just not necessary. Each Shardbearer, 10 seconds MAX of tapped speed needed. At X10 that's 100 seconds. At a 90% loss for compounding, that's 1000 seconds or 15 minutes. Not hard to store Edited April 5, 2016 by IndigoAjah
Voidus Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 Why waste speed or risk yourself fighting the Shardbearer? Let them come to you, leading the attacks as always. The Shardbearer has no idea you are a Steelrunner. Wait till they are 6-10 metres away, tap x10 speed and kill them before they can even perceive what is going on It's crazy to fight them head on when it's just not necessary. Each Shardbearer, 10 seconds MAX of tapped speed needed. At X10 that's 100 seconds. At a 90% loss for compounding, that's 1000 seconds or 15 minutes. Not hard to store I was trying to be as generous as possible, but yeah that was somewhat my point, 5 minutes of normal time at 10x speed is basically like having time stopped for an hour, you can more than kill a Shardbearer in that time, you could swipe every Soulcaster the enemy has as well as murder most of their army.
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