A Windspren he/him Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 I think that a perpetual Highstorm would completely destroy the Scadrian army, if the Stormfather felt like helping out. Plus, Vasher is on Roshar, so he could create hundreds more Nightbloods, but with more specific Commands like "Protect Roshar."
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 You assume Vasher can make another Nightblood a) at all without a vast vast vast amount of Investiture c) on Roshar and d) without the large amount of help he had before
A Windspren he/him Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) I think we have a WoB that Vasher knows how to make more Nightbloods. He has an abundant source of Investiture in the form of Stormlight, and has already figured out how to use it to keep him alive. He would just need to find a way to Awaken with it, but he will probably be able to do this by the time of Era 2. We need a "Team Roshar" and a "Team Scadrial" Edited April 1, 2016 by Kevino36
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) It also assumes Vasher is team Roshar, which I admit I think he probably would be based on him aiding the Kholins as far as I can tell voluntarily But I think the biggest risk of using Nightblood vs TLR is that he has enough Investiture to survive Nightblood being thrown at him for a while, then takes it for himself Edited April 1, 2016 by IndigoAjah
Landis963 he/him Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 I think that a perpetual Highstorm would completely destroy the Scadrian army, if the Stormfather felt like helping out. Plus, Vasher is on Roshar, so he could create hundreds more Nightbloods, but with more specific Commands like "Protect Roshar." Assuming of course that Vasher would consent to make another Nightblood in the first place. (The prospect of making more of them was what led him to kill his wife, remember)
A Windspren he/him Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 Yeah, he might not want to make more, but if the Command given to the Awakened swords was more specific, so that it wouldn't harm people unless it's protecting, Vasher might be convinced to make another Nightblood. If we're going to consider the willingness of both sides to fight, I doubt that everyone in Elendel would want to worldhop to a faraway planet to fight a pointless war.
Voidus Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 Yeah, he might not want to make more, but if the Command given to the Awakened swords was more specific, so that it wouldn't harm people unless it's protecting, Vasher might be convinced to make another Nightblood. If we're going to consider the willingness of both sides to fight, I doubt that everyone in Elendel would want to worldhop to a faraway planet to fight a pointless war. No but Vasher's not even from Roshar so it's debatable that you could even count him in Roshars list of assets. And while Nightblood is more Invested than the bands he's not guaranteed to be more useful, the Bands not only contain Investiture but powers themselves. Nightblood has yet to actually use his Investiture to do anything other than get more Investiture. I also doubt that Vasher could get his hands on enough Stormlight to make one Nightblood let alone multiple. And if he did it'd leave the Rosharans with no other Shards and no Stormlight for their Radiants.
Brgst13 Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 One other point: What about the Parshendi? We are assuming this war is Alethi v. Scadrial. If we add in the Stormform Parshendi, there is a great deal more power available for Roshar. While they would not likely side with the humans, they create a third party that could greatly confuse a war. Their powers and numbers are more than a match for the Scadrians.
Voidus Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 One other point: What about the Parshendi? We are assuming this war is Alethi v. Scadrial. If we add in the Stormform Parshendi, there is a great deal more power available for Roshar. While they would not likely side with the humans, they create a third party that could greatly confuse a war. Their powers and numbers are more than a match for the Scadrians. I'd contend that, they still largely use metal weapons. And given the difference in gravity I'd say even a regular Scadrian would be of about equal if not greater strength than one. They can summon the Everstorm I suppose but other than that I don't think they'd be a big problem. And if they do summon it then it hurts Roshar just as much as it hurts Scadrial. Moreso since it's also all their land that gets destroyed.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 If the Parshendi are counted, despite being the enemies of the Alethi and thus more likely to side with Roshar, wouldn't The Southerners be counted?
iohn he/him Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 What is the population of Scadrial post Ascension? Most of the population died, armies were decimated, villages destroyed, and they've only had a few hundred years to recover. Technology or not I'm pretty sure the Rosharans have a huge advantage in numbers. At least big enough that they could steal Scadrian technology and even the tools of war available to both sides before losing a significant portion of their population.And before anybody says war has kept the population of Roshar limited as well, Roshar has had thousands of years since the last Desolation, and population increases exponentially.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 300 years is so much time to increase a population size
Pathfinder Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 One other point: What about the Parshendi? We are assuming this war is Alethi v. Scadrial. If we add in the Stormform Parshendi, there is a great deal more power available for Roshar. While they would not likely side with the humans, they create a third party that could greatly confuse a war. Their powers and numbers are more than a match for the Scadrians. Scadrial has soothers and rioters. Why couldn't they inflame the tensions and battle between the Alethi and the Parshendi like the British empire did with the Native American tribes? Turn them against each other, and watch them do the work for you. What is the population of Scadrial post Ascension? Most of the population died, armies were decimated, villages destroyed, and they've only had a few hundred years to recover. Technology or not I'm pretty sure the Rosharans have a huge advantage in numbers. At least big enough that they could steal Scadrian technology and even the tools of war available to both sides before losing a significant portion of their population. And before anybody says war has kept the population of Roshar limited as well, Roshar has had thousands of years since the last Desolation, and population increases exponentially. You are forgetting the potential population loss from the everstorm and whatever happens in the next three stormlight books. You could have Roshar, that lacks heralds, has 1 percent of the radiants it had in the past, dealing with an everstorm that never existed before converting countless parshendi in key positions of vulnerability. Humans on Roshar in the past barely survived the desolations and that was WITH all the heralds, an army of radiants, and no everstorm, while the current lacks all of that. When this hypothetical war occurs, the population of Roshar could be so utterly devastated to an almost extinction level.
Alfa he/him Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 Some points, that IMHO were not given proper consideration yet:1) Population: While Roshar has about the size of Eurasia (give or take 20%), the Elendel basin is only about the size of texas. Even if Roshar is less densely populated (which could be argued), Alethkar alone is more than four times as big as the Basin, and has more people in fighting age. Could be relativated a bit, since Scadrial has no religious restraints from mustering women. 2) Immunity: Somewhere in the very first posts a point about sickness was made. We know, that a simple cold (carried to Roshar by Demoux and his friends) became a "plague". Scadrians have a lot of different microbes with them, and Roshar would have problems tot deal with them (i read somewhere that about 80% of the native americans died on behalf on european plagues)3) Familiarity: Any of the invading worlds would suffer a huge disadvantage - absolute unfamiliarity with the nature of the invadead world. A Rosharan would eat poisonous Scadrian plants (or not eat healthy ones), while a Scadrian might not have any clue, that it's usually not a good idea to hunt a whitespine (and eat it afterwards).
A Windspren he/him Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 For point 2: Sazed cured all diseases after his Ascension to give humanity on Scadrial a better chance at surviving.
Alfa he/him Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 For point 2: Sazed cured all diseases after his Ascension to give humanity on Scadrial a better chance at surviving. Can you say where this is mentioned? If this is true, the Rosharans would have an edge, since they have at least some diseases.
Voidus Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Some points, that IMHO were not given proper consideration yet: 1) Population: While Roshar has about the size of Eurasia (give or take 20%), the Elendel basin is only about the size of texas. Even if Roshar is less densely populated (which could be argued), Alethkar alone is more than four times as big as the Basin, and has more people in fighting age. Could be relativated a bit, since Scadrial has no religious restraints from mustering women. 2) Immunity: Somewhere in the very first posts a point about sickness was made. We know, that a simple cold (carried to Roshar by Demoux and his friends) became a "plague". Scadrians have a lot of different microbes with them, and Roshar would have problems tot deal with them (i read somewhere that about 80% of the native americans died on behalf on european plagues) 3) Familiarity: Any of the invading worlds would suffer a huge disadvantage - absolute unfamiliarity with the nature of the invadead world. A Rosharan would eat poisonous Scadrian plants (or not eat healthy ones), while a Scadrian might not have any clue, that it's usually not a good idea to hunt a whitespine (and eat it afterwards). 1) Honestly not a problem, Scadrials technology and abilities greatly outweigh any potential shortfall in numbers. They have around 5000 constables all told, and perhaps a few hundred extra metalborn who are combat oriented. Even if they performed no recruitment whatsoever and didn't even seek help from anywhere else in the basin I really wouldn't find it that hard to believe that those forces could successfully defeat the Rosharan army. Unless Roshar's Highprinces all collaborated and decided to send their entire force at once and even then it's arguable that they'd still probably lose, thousands of your army suddenly collapsing for reasons that you're not sure of don't make for a very good morale. 2)Kind of hard to predict which way this would influence things but either way it'd probably come too late to actually change the outcome of the war. 3) The only real problem to Scadrians is figuring out Highstorms, but that's something that even very rudimentary scouting would solve.
jasenerd Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 People mentioning that the Pashendi might swing the scales back to Roshar: We are counting the Kandra and Koloss because they are species that have allied with the scadrians with several members of each species being intimate with one another. So they have motive and precedence in working togeather. Where as Pashendi are at war with the Rosharian Humans. Beyond that, only non voidbringers Pashendi actually make sense in this conflict. In Stormform, they lack unity within their own leadership and martial forces. In many ways, the traces of Odium leave them uniquely unsuited for any allied war effort with Roshar as a whole. Can you say where this is mentioned? If this is true, the Rosharans would have an edge, since they have at least some diseases. I think the implication is that he made the Scadrians more rugged against the diseases, causing them to die out naturally. Otherwise he would be lowering the scadrians odds of survival.
natc Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Actually as far as I remember Koloss warlord attacks are still a problem in the basin. They can be controlled though, and you can sort of trust the Koloss-bloods.
A Windspren he/him Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 There was a WoB that Sazed cured all diseases on Scadrial. It didn't say that he made the humans immune, but that he removed them.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 I sense an inconsistency here, because Miles says how by burning F Gold all the time he now never has to suffer a cold, which makes no sense at all if Harmony has removed all diseases
Voidus Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 I sense an inconsistency here, because Miles says how by burning F Gold all the time he now never has to suffer a cold, which makes no sense at all if Harmony has removed all diseases I'm guessing this might be a misinterpretation of Sazed killing off all the microbes that fed on the ash to break it down. I don't know of any WoB that says diseases are gone and a search on Theoryland for keywords I could think of (cure, disease, Harmony) didn't turn up anything either.
Alfa he/him Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 2)Kind of hard to predict which way this would influence things but either way it'd probably come too late to actually change the outcome of the war. Actually, a chulload of wars was won by diseases - often unrecorded. And pretty damnation fast. The "cold-plague" hit the purelake in about half a year, and since you can't easily conquer a land four times the size of your homeland in a couple of weeks, the plague would do it's job. Worst case scenario for Roshar: something like pox kills 95% of the population...
Voidus Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Actually, a chulload of wars was won by diseases - often unrecorded. And pretty damnation fast. The "cold-plague" hit the purelake in about half a year, and since you can't easily conquer a land four times the size of your homeland in a couple of weeks, the plague would do it's job. Worst case scenario for Roshar: something like pox kills 95% of the population... You can if you have vastly superior military force and technology. And the OP isn't who could conquer the other, just who would win in a war, and this war, unlike the Vengeance pact would probably be decided pretty quickly.
Eki Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 I'm guessing this might be a misinterpretation of Sazed killing off all the microbes that fed on the ash to break it down. I don't know of any WoB that says diseases are gone and a search on Theoryland for keywords I could think of (cure, disease, Harmony) didn't turn up anything either. There is number 32 here: http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727 (don't know how to link directly, sorry!)It says Harmony healed all physical and genetic ailments, but that wouldn't wipe out the diseases completely.
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