Why not 45 combinations?

[Mr. Staccato he/him]

Since we've seen that the spren which form nahel bonds are tied to cognitive concepts like honor and deception, I'm thinking that if you come up with the proper cognitive concept, you might be able to make a spren which could form a Nahel bond that conveys surges other than those granted by the Honorblades. Maybe a doublethinkspren or schadenfreudespren might exist which could do this, but no one's encountered it yet. Heck, we see from Axies the Collector that captivityspren aren't well-documented, and captivity isn't exactly uncommon on Roshar. I always found it ironic that Kaladin spotted them when he didn't want to, and Axies can't spot them when he does want to...

Exactly. The brunt of the reasoning why so many think spren with irregularly paired surges are an impossibility lies on the fact that the Nahel Bond which lets them provide power supposedly imitates that of the 10 Honorblades. So further combinations are therefore non-existent, following this line of thinking.

 

But I find it weird that everything stops there. Yes, they imitated the Honorblades, but it's not like the Surges cannot exist independently from them - they're fundamental forces for Harmony's sake! If anything else, the Honorblades are the ones dependent on the Surges. They're the ones tapping into its powers. One can argue then that the pairings of powers the blades are embodying were never absolute and only came about because someone - maybe Honor or Cultivation (or both) - purposely designed the pairings for each of the blades. As a result, the spren formed the Nahel Bond and imitated the paired powers that came along with it without knowing that they didn't have to. They could have chosen different Surges for themselves but didn't know that they could.

 

Maybe in the future, other spren types will realize this. Anyway, thoughts regarding this theory?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mr. Staccato

[Oversleep]

There is a WoB that such pairs are natural to Roshar similarly how metals are natural for Scadrial. Nobody asks why there are only sixteen metals, but we ask why there are only such pairs.

However, if different pairs are possible, then I'm eagerly waiting for silver Misting.

Edit: WoB I'm talking about is quoted in my post on the previous page.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Oversleep

[Voidus]

There is a WoB that such pairs are natural to Roshar similarly how metals are natural for Scadrial. Nobody asks why there are only sixteen metals, but we ask why there are only such pairs.

However, if different pairs are possible, then I'm eagerly waiting for silver Misting.

Edit: WoB I'm talking about is quoted in my post on the previous page.

It is actually something I've thought about, what if you alloyed Lerasium with a non-allomantic metal? What would happen? Could we finally get silvereyes?

[Oversleep]

What if Elantrian shaped lerasium into Aon Ela and gave somebody to burn? Would that person become Elantrian? After all, lerasium rewrites sDNA and if flavored with Dor...

Hm, what would happen if somebody were to burn lerasium which was charged as metalmind?

[DreamEternal]

Hm, what would happen if somebody were to burn lerasium which was charged as metalmind?

Feruchemical lerasium compounding, of course. Maybe also an Identity rewrite that would allow the burner to later tap the donor's metalminds.

[Oversleep]

Yeah, when the Compounder burns lerasium, Compounding lerasium happens.

But if somebody other than you charged the lerasiummind and you were to burn it...? Naah, probably just regular lerasium burning.

The Dor effect still intrigues me. Can you inscribe such a set of Aons on the lerasium that the person who burned it would become Elantrian?

[DreamEternal]

But if somebody other than you charged the lerasiummind and you were to burn it...? Naah, probably just regular lerasium burning.

Eh. In my mind, what would happen would be regular compounding. Like all Lerasium metalminds were considered unkeyed when you burned them, just like everyone can burn lerasium alomantically.

[Dahak he/him]

the ten surges are represented in a circle, and they are only pairead among adjacent ones, so 10 combinations. Now, as to why there are no other pairings, that's not something I can answer. It doesn't seem to be a thing of thematic linking; I don't see elsecalling having anything to do with lightweaving or soulcasting. I'd say it's just the way the world works.

 

It is sort of implied that the Bondsmiths/Heralds/Dawnshards did something when the Knights Radient were founded that directly modified the rules the magic system operated under. It may have to do with that.

 

 

He may have changed this, but he said there were about 20-30 magic systems in Roshar, counting for all fabrial magics, surge pairings, and voidbinding. The Old Magic is its own little thing. 

Emphasis mine.

Odd way to disprove this, but with the current information we have, there are only 10 pairings.

 

10 orders (consisting of pairs of surges) of Knights Radient, 10 Polestones (consisting of single surges?) for Fabrials and 10 types of Voidbinding.

 

 

Exactly. The brunt of the reasoning why so many think spren with irregularly paired surges are an impossibility lies on the fact that the Nahel Bond which lets them provide power supposedly imitates that of the 10 Honorblades. So further combinations are therefore non-existent, following this line of thinking.

 

There are those two and 5 extra lines on the double Eye. Like the one between Lightweavers and Windrunner or the one between Windrunners and Edge Dancers. The five could just be somthing about opposites but the two extra vertical lines are unclear.

 

I'm wondering if they have something to do with the possible extra spren types.

 

Why isn't there a line between Elsecallers and Bondsmiths? And why is it figure of 8 and a circle rather than two circles?

 

It's almost like someone has twisted the magic systems relationships.

[Bowiespoon he/him]

Ok, I'm glad/sad thats cleared up. See, I thought that surgebinding and voidbinding were only 2 of the magic systems on Roshar. Seems wierd that each surge pair would be a different system though; we don't consider a pewterarm part of a different system than a tineye.

 

Still though, think how crazy It'd be if we had 28 other systems as larger as surgebinding.........

[natc]

The difference is that with allomancy, mistborn exist. Though not naturally possible, the powers naturally group together as a single system. Surgebinding, on the other hand, has no equivalent example.

[ZenBossanova]

That does beg the question, does Hoid just want to be a surgebinder (if indeed that is actually what he is doing) or does he want all 10 powers (a Surge-born)? And how exactly would he do that?

[Mr. Staccato he/him]

That does beg the question, does Hoid just want to be a surgebinder (if indeed that is actually what he is doing) or does he want all 10 powers (a Surge-born)? And how exactly would he do that?

Though I do believe that some spren out there can provide differently paired surges - I don't believe it is possible for anyone out there, even Hoid, to gain access to all surges. Scadrial had physical condensations of Preservation's power in the form of Lerasium, not to mention that even when he was brain-dead he was at least not splintered. The only way I can think of to make the above possible is if Hoid can somehow usurp Honor's shard.

But Hoid as Honor's shardholder? Hm... not sure about that.

[Oversleep]

Since Hoid is an allomancer... Maybe he can burn a part of Shardplate (cause it can be tanavastium...) to gain all the Surges?

Naah, probably not possible.

[WestTea he/him]

Couldn't Hoid easily gain access to all ten surges just by gathering five of the honorblades so their was no overlap in surges? I can absolutely see Hoid going to Shinovar in a time when an honorblade might be misplaced (like a war with the skybreakers or something else) and making off with a few.

[Mr. Staccato he/him]

Couldn't Hoid easily gain access to all ten surges just by gathering five of the honorblades so their was no overlap in surges? I can absolutely see Hoid going to Shinovar in a time when an honorblade might be misplaced (like a war with the skybreakers or something else) and making off with a few.

First off, I can't help but laugh at just how far this thread has taken a detour - but to continue with the discussion, I have to say that although the act of making off with honorblades seems like a very Hoid-y thing to do, I don't think Hoid would go so far as to steal the blades.

 

Hoid intervenes in every Cosmere series up to date, but even for Hoid such a thing seems to be A HUGE LEVEL UP from his usual subtle tips and pushing. Yes, I know Hoid has a larger than usual role in Stormlight Archive, but Hoid is also (in my opinion) infamous for being terribly avert to the concept of responsibility. I don't know - maybe I'm mistaken about this. Thoughts?

[ZenBossanova]

If he gets Honor spren, he might have to be less responsibility-avoidant. If he gets an Odium spren, he might become capable of dishing out more punishment.

[Mr. Staccato he/him]

If he gets Honor spren, he might have to be less responsibility-avoidant. If he gets an Odium spren, he might become capable of dishing out more punishment.

True, but from what we've seen from Syl and her interactions with Kaladin regarding the honorblades, the spren seem to find the weapons too dangerous to use. Then again, maybe that's just Syl. Maybe not all the spren are like that. To continue the thread of the argument though, avoidance of responsibility is not the issue here. Hoid's actions can be inconsistent, but I feel that the honorblades are just something too big, too invested, too dangerous for even Hoid to be tampering with. Hiding the blades? I'd agree. Taking it for himself? That does not sound like Hoid at all. As far as we know, he took a bead of Lerasium, but he hasn't used it yet, hasn't he? Nor do I think will he ever.

 

And besides, I have trouble imagining how, of all the spren that could possibly bond with Hoid, a Honorspren would. It's like - seriously?

 

Anyway, we've strayed far enough from the topic. To the next posters:

 

Do you think we'll be seeing surgebinders in the latter part of the series whose combination of surges do not match that of the KR?

Edited March 31, 2016 by Mr. Staccato

[Eki]

As far as we know, he took a bead of Lerasium, but he hasn't used it yet, hasn't he? Nor do I think will he ever.

We don't really know this. Brandon keeps hinting that he never burned it (though he might use it in some other way), but there are also hints that he used Allomancy on Shallan...

[natc]

He also has the moon scepter from the Rose Empire. Poor Shai.