Popular Post Nashan’Elin he/him Posted March 16, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I woke up this morning with a weird theory floating in my head, which coalesced into thoughts about the purpose of the Dakhor Monk sacrifices and how that connects to the Dor. I have three main bases for my theory. 1. In the Cognitive Realm on Sel, the Dor acts like a storm of extreme Investiture, tearing apart anything that goes there. 2. The Dakhor Monk sacrifices vanish completely when they are used. It's described as the man simply vanishing with the monks, but not reappearing. 3. Investiture can be used to physically pull someone into the Cognitive Realm, i.e. Elsecallers. So the theory is thus: When the Dakhor Monks disappear, they send the one man physically into the Cognitive Realm, and as he is torn apart by the Dor, the monks use him as a conduit, channeling the Dor in greater strength to gain the nessecary power to teleport to wherever they are going. I know that there's not much evidence for this so far, but it seems like it could work. Thoughts? 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Elodin Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 That seems very likely. Good theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfax Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I could definitely get on board with this. Now my mind is abuzz with what happens to the monks who are tossed into the Cognitive. Are they literally torn apart by the Dor? Do they exist there for a time, tempted with the pull to the Beyond? Are they trained to resist and cross back into the Physical? Are they protected by Devotion, who sees their sacrifice as a holy interpretation of their love for Dominion? So many questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Well Devotion is dead, so she can't do squat. And they can't return to the physical, since the point as far as we know is that they die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfax Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Well, the shardholder is, and we know it's been splintered, so the power exists in some form. The dead Vessel couldn't do squat, though, I give you that. And the key is "as far as we know". We know they disappear. We know the magics are based in the Cognitive. The rest is speculation and conjecture. Saying they can't do something simply because we don't know that they can or can't is fallacious. The monks may believe they die, but without someone on the other side reporting to them what happens, they know about as much as we do. The point of theories is to question and wonder, which is all I'm doing. OP posited that the monks were drawn into the Physical, and destroyed by the Dor in the process. My wonder was, and what if they weren't destroyed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Elodin Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 This is the first theory that I have espoused! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nashan’Elin he/him Posted March 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 This is the first theory that I have espoused! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 This works with all of their abilities too, not just teleporting. Since they don't have Elantrians who can naturally connect to the Dor they sacrifice people to gain a temporary gateway to power their versions of Aons.Voidus likes this theory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 This works with all of their abilities too, not just teleporting. Since they don't have Elantrians who can naturally connect to the Dor they sacrifice people to gain a temporary gateway to power their versions of Aons. Voidus likes this theory. It's probably but we saw them (and other Selish Magic Users) uses the Dor to performe some feat also without anykind of sacrifica.. Therefore probably they need a sacrifice to overcome the limits of their own magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 It's probably but we saw them (and other Selish Magic Users) uses the Dor to performe some feat also without anykind of sacrifica.. Therefore probably they need a sacrifice to overcome the limits of their own magic. The dakhor? Not that I know of, all their magic comes from sacrifice, they don't necessarily need to sacrifice someone every time they use it but at least to gain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 The dakhor? Not that I know of, all their magic comes from sacrifice, they don't necessarily need to sacrifice someone every time they use it but at least to gain it. I have to admit I am unsure about this. We don't know if someone have to be sacrificed to allow the bone's trasformation. As far as we may see only high rank power require sacrifice and the sacrifice have to be a Dakhor user, but of course it's impossible the need of a Dakhor death to create another one. I may miss something of course. Anyway when I said "Selish Magic Users" I though about the Dahkor, Forger and Bloodsealer... this three class of magic users have nothing like the Shaod and any "tool/method" they have to initiate someone to this Magic Systems may be shared by the Dahkor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 I have to admit I am unsure about this. We don't know if someone have to be sacrificed to allow the bone's trasformation. As far as we may see only high rank power require sacrifice and the sacrifice have to be a Dakhor user, but of course it's impossible the need of a Dakhor death to create another one. I may miss something of course. Anyway when I said "Selish Magic Users" I though about the Dahkor, Forger and Bloodsealer... this three class of magic users have nothing like the Shaod and any "tool/method" they have to initiate someone to this Magic Systems may be shared by the Dahkor. I believe it was mentioned that all Dakhor needs sacrifices, but I might be misremembering. I think only the teleportation needs dakhor themselves to be sacrificed, Dilaf said 50 men needed to die for the aon-cancelling, not 50 monks. I imagine other regions have their own methods of gaining access, forging seems pretty unintensive Investiture-wise so they might just have a smaller natural link to the Dor so they don't glow or anything but can channel a bit of it over a very long period of time into a stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Of course is possible. I am sorry about the 50 monk or 50 men...but in my language the sentence with "men" may be read as "his men (monk)" very easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Of course is possible. I am sorry about the 50 monk or 50 men...but in my language the sentence with "men" may be read as "his men (monk)" very easy I'll check the exact wording when I can but I think it was just men in english. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Elantris page 477 Kindle Edition "...only Dilaf bore the power that made him resistant to attacks by the Dor- a capacity that had required the deaths of fifty men to create. He felt, rather than saw, as his men were torn apart by the Elantrians' attack." Btw, the number fifty is mentioned about 21 times in describing how many monks were in Teo after they teleported, how many feet the monks were away from Serene in Teo, how many years old Dilaf was when his wife got damaged by the aon, how many soldiers left the pyre and galloped towards Kiin's house, how many buildings Serene estimates are in New Elantris, fifty to one odds described by Ahan regarding Telrii, estimated fifty elantrians clustered around observing when Serene delivers food, Teod banished the Derethi priests from the country fifty years ago, Serene knew every important event that happened in Teod in the last fifty years, and the wedding contract was a fifty page beast of a document. Quite a few fifties in there. Guess Sanderson liked the number when he wrote it lol 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Elantris page 477 Kindle Edition "...only Dilaf bore the power that made him resistant to attacks by the Dor- a capacity that had required the deaths of fifty men to create. He felt, rather than saw, as his men were torn apart by the Elantrians' attack." Btw, the number fifty is mentioned about 21 times in describing how many monks were in Teo after they teleported, how many feet the monks were away from Serene in Teo, how many years old Dilaf was when his wife got damaged by the aon, how many soldiers left the pyre and galloped towards Kiin's house, how many buildings Serene estimates are in New Elantris, fifty to one odds described by Ahan regarding Telrii, estimated fifty elantrians clustered around observing when Serene delivers food, Teod banished the Derethi priests from the country fifty years ago, Serene knew every important event that happened in Teod in the last fifty years, and the wedding contract was a fifty page beast of a document. Quite a few fifties in there. Guess Sanderson liked the number when he wrote it lol Much obliged. That is an awful lot of 50s. Maybe 50 is the Selish Shardic number like 10 for Roshar or 16 for Scadrial. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted April 14, 2016 Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 If 50 were the number, it would be much more important than those minor details. For example, how many different Aons are there? Types of symbols for Dakhor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie.x.3000 Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 We don't know, maybe 50. We didn't find out about 16 being Preservation's thing until book 3, and Elantris is the first book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir of the Void he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I suspect that they require sacrifice to create a link to the Dor, which can then be used without human sacrifice, much like a permanent Aon. Remember, Hrathen had been out of Dakhor for decades and hand only gained the modifications as far as his arm, but they were enough to allow him to (temporarily) survive a fatal stab wound (like pewter?) and to pick Dilaf up fully off the ground and choke him while bleeding out, despite being stabbed again.They were also glowing. This is likely indicative of something magical going on. The act of Devotion of a man sacrificing himself creates the connection to the Intent of the shard needed, though the Domination necessary for an involuntary sacrifice might also have some effect. Therefore, I would think the sacrifice creates the connection to the Dor, which allows Investiture to be drawn out and infused into something, or expended for a dramatic single-use power like teleportation. Alternatively, it creates the bone symbols, which allow the Monk to draw on the Dor and get the investiture that way. I'm still not clear as to which it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Probably the sacrifices "tear" a hole in the "veil" between the Physical Realm (Sel) and the Cognitive Realm (Dor), as aons do. The bone-symbols are necessary to channel this energy and can probably store it. I suppose, that the Initiation in Dahkor comes from two parts - first, Dahkor is built in a "focal point" of Fjordell, second, the high amount of sacrifices in Dahkor leads to a permanent "Dor-storm", which fills the monastery and leads to mutation. Probably the "solemn chanting, that had a strange power to it" (Chapter 36) has also some part in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Well, AonDor itself has an apparent contradiction in its existence. Only Elantrians appear to be able to invoke the aons, but Elantrians themselves are initiated from humans by the Shaod, which is itself an aon-powered system as evidenced by the repair of Aon Rao. So there must have been something that created Elantris, that is not "Elantrian" in the modern sense but has that capability. What it is isn't immediately important. It somewhat stands to reason, then, that there was some entity or creature located in that monastery, with a Dakhor bone-rune that sacrifices humans somehow to cause the monks' skeletons to mutate and become able to use the power themselves. Something with a similarly self-contradictory origin. I can't imagine just randomly killing people will work, that happens all the time I'm sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Well, AonDor itself has an apparent contradiction in its existence. Only Elantrians appear to be able to invoke the aons, but Elantrians themselves are initiated from humans by the Shaod, which is itself an aon-powered system as evidenced by the repair of Aon Rao. So there must have been something that created Elantris, that is not "Elantrian" in the modern sense but has that capability. What it is isn't immediately important. It somewhat stands to reason, then, that there was some entity or creature located in that monastery, with a Dakhor bone-rune that sacrifices humans somehow to cause the monks' skeletons to mutate and become able to use the power themselves. Something with a similarly self-contradictory origin. I can't imagine just randomly killing people will work, that happens all the time I'm sure. Elantris just enhances the effect it doesn't create it, hence why they could still use Aons before fixing Elantris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 And yet for some reason, when the aon fails, it actually goes about halfway and then messes up like a misdrawn aon, instead of simply doing nothing like everything else missing the chasm line. Unless the Shaod actually defaults to zombie state or something. Shaod is weird. Still though, wasn't Elantris supposed to predate Arelon? Something is definitely up with it. Why does the distance decay become so drastic for Arelon alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Elantris just enhances the effect it doesn't create it, hence why they could still use Aons before fixing Elantris. Citation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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