From the shattering to the true desolation

[echaozh]

I have 3 theories that I think is not very mainstream and really want to talk about it with you guys:

 

1. I think Nin may be right in thinking that Knights Radiant first trigger the desolations.

 

Though the heroes in the Stormlight Archives are almost all KRs now and they seem really honorable and saving the world, KRs are not considered good from day 1. Actually, Nahodon thinks ill of them and Ishar literally threatens them to behave. And bonding with Spren must be less natural for humans than for the listeners.

 

My idea is that in the beginning, the Oathpact only involves the Heralds as champions for Honor against Odium's champions, presumably the Unmades. At that time, the humans are not involved and they may not experience such huge losses during the showdowns between the champions. Being Honor and binding Odium, it is not hard to imagine Tanavast imposes the "equal firepower" rule on Odium to reduce casualty.

 

I think Odium tricked Honor by introducing the spren bonding to humans and start an arms race between the two sides. When the binders step into the pact, a whole war cannot be avoided. People hates the voidbringers and Odium is satisfied. And Honor is more vulnerable as ordinary people are more prone to be not so honorable.

 

However, at present, after desolations of arms race, you cannot go back to fistfights between Heralds and say, Unmades, so Nin is insane after all. Or he may want to free Odium from the pact and have him go elsewhere and thus save Roshar (only).

 

2. Honor is the one who helped Odium to kill Devotion and Dominion.

 

I think at the beginning of the Rosharian history, Honor and Odium are on good terms. Honor may even consider himself as Odium's friend, considering how nice he is. He bought drinks for Hoid once, and I believe he must have bought drinks for Odium, maybe much more than once.

 

Honor may go with Odium to Sel, and forces the two shards there to fight Odium one on one, rather than overwhelm him by attacking together. This way, it was easy for Odium to kill both shards, and those kills both count as his.

 

I make this assumption because Odium is obviously considered as a worshippable god on Roshar rather than a devil in hell. "Three of sixteen ruled, now the broken one reigns." The opponent of the Almighty should not be considered a ruler of the world, no matter how powerful he is, right? The Titans, the giants in Norwegian myths are all powerful and arguably more powerful than the worshipped gods, but they're not considered rulers of Earth.

 

Also, Honor didn't realize Odium would come for him. If Odium is tricked and trapped on Roshar, as the one who trap him, Honor, no matter how noble and naive he is, he should be able to foresee that Odium will try to kill him without his future seeing powers. Or Cultivation sees the possibility and warn him. It should never have been a surprise. The simplest explanation is, Honor did not trick Odium, and they were on good terms.

 

3. The shards and Hoid together are the opposition to Adonalsium, and Hoid is not seeking to make it whole.

 

Hoid wrote a letter to someone, and in the reply, his quest concerning Odium is compared to the shattering of Adonalsium. I think this comparison is not to prove to Hoid that he is a troublemaker, rather, Hoid's quest is basically the same as the one he was after before the shattering.

 

Adonalsium is from the world for God in Hebrew. God in the Old Testaments is, well, if not hateful, at least very jealous. Odium is "God's wrath without context". My assumption is, in Cosmere, God's wrath, with context, may still be the strongest of his emotions and may overwhelm the others.

 

Hoid and his friends may unite to form an opposition to Adonalsium and finally succeeded in killing and thus shattering him. Now, since the God is full of wrath, Odium the shard is actually the strongest of all and he can easily kill any other shard so long as they're alone.

 

I think Hoid's current quest is to shatter Odium just like Adonalsium. He doesn't want Adonalsium, so he will not try to make it whole, but he also doesn't want Odium to be left alone and able to take actions. He is trying to kill Odium, and the one he's asking for help points out that killing a God may not end up like what you'd expected, and tries to talk him out of it.

 

[littlefox]

toooooooo long to see(๑•ั็ω•็ั๑)

[dyring]

On the first one, actually they are considered good from day one. While desolations are still comon regularily. Not all of them necesserily, they are human. Some will end up being bad, or atleast doing bad things.

 

Also, early on, while the desolations are still ongoing, there are knights radiants even in the periods inbetween desolations, if they caused it, that would be impossible.

 

I´v thought it fairly confirmed that next dosolation happends when the first of the heralds break from torture. with only the herald of stone captured, Odium had to break him, wich took time. Alot of time.

 

On the second, what makes you sure Odium had help?

 I´v rather thought Aona and Skai was att odds with eachother, and Odium basically blindsided them, or possibly convinced one he would help against the other. 

 

 

Third, peronally I think Hoid was part of the cabal to shatter Adonalsium, but he either changed his mind before and tried to stop it at the end(wich would explain why he didnt get a shard like the others), or he decided afterwards that it was a mistake.

Edited February 4, 2016 by dyring

[yurisses]

I'm not convinced that there's evidence for Honor having a hand in Sel's Splinterings, but I like the idea that Honor and Odium were buddies. It really does provide an explanation for Honor's "I should have known Odium would come for me" and the "three of sixteen" quote.

[echaozh]

I think Odium definitely has a hand in the first bonds between humans and spren. For listeners, it's part of their lifecycle, and sounds suspiciously like Cultivation's work. Odium found it a vulnerability of the listeners and corrupted them with his own spren. And he somehow persuaded the spren to bond with humans. There can be another motivation for him to try it: Strengthening his opponents, he can increase the chance of more surviving Heralds, which also increases the chance of deserting Heralds. He is Odium, and he must know exactly how the Heralds hate to go back to be tortured.

[Pathfinder]

The main reason I am not feeling the theory that Honor helped Odium spinter Aona and Skar is there is not a reason I can think of as to why Honor would help Odium do that at all. There is no evidence of problems between Honor, Aona and Skar for Honor to want to see them gone, and I don't buy the idea that Odium could convince Honor that it is a good idea to kill two people he used to know. Only way I could see that, is if Odium somehow fooled him into thinking Aona and Skar are bad, and if that is the case I could see that being a big thing to come up in the visions or for the spren. I think Stormfather would be saying things like "You humans are so much like Odium. Betrayal seems to be rooted within you.". 

[echaozh]

Honor definitely knew that Devotion and Dominion were splintered. In one of Dalinar's visions, 2 stars winked out and then he said he didn't realize he would be the next one. If the splintering was the reason Honor decided Odium was dangerous and should be trapped, he should have been Odium's target from the beginning, like the struggle between Preservation and Ruin.

 

Honorspren binds things, Honor is good at oaths and bounds. I think Honor may want to unite the Adonalsium and thought splintering the shards as the first step. When the Adonalsium is whole again, only 1 person can be the vessel, and I think the others will not give up their powers so easily. Hanging onto powers not belonging to you can be considered dishonorable if you look at it from the right angle.

[Pathfinder]

Honor definitely knew that Devotion and Dominion were splintered. In one of Dalinar's visions, 2 stars winked out and then he said he didn't realize he would be the next one. If the splintering was the reason Honor decided Odium was dangerous and should be trapped, he should have been Odium's target from the beginning, like the struggle between Preservation and Ruin.

 

Honorspren binds things, Honor is good at oaths and bounds. I think Honor may want to unite the Adonalsium and thought splintering the shards as the first step. When the Adonalsium is whole again, only 1 person can be the vessel, and I think the others will not give up their powers so easily. Hanging onto powers not belonging to you can be considered dishonorable if you look at it from the right angle.

Killing people who disagree with you sounds dishonorable to me. if that was his motivation, then one, i do not see why he would allow himself to be shattered so early from the end game of shattering all the other shards to unite them as adonalsium. Second, if a shattered shard if left alone long enough, it could gain sentience. So shattering them by itself wouldn't be enough otherwise you would still have an entity to contend with. So shattering them with the goal of joining them, would require some sort of mechanism to keep them shattered, which I have not seen any hint or mention of. Finally if Odium convinced Honor this was a good idea, and then back stabbed him by shattering him too, then again that is far too early to pull the back stab. it would make more sense to wait till 90 percent or more of the shards are taken care of. Otherwise he is just hamstringing himself. Not saying the theory is wrong, just that it doesn't fit right for myself. 

[Stormgate]

If people swear to give up power Invested in them and they refuse, they will indeed be dishonorable and worthy of being turned into Roshar's first bunny rabbits.

[King's Twit]

Even though I disagree with you on all counts, I like the way you think!

 

A couple things, though:

 

Theory 1:

 

My idea is that in the beginning, the Oathpact only involves the Heralds as champions for Honor against Odium's champions, presumably the Unmades. At that time, the humans are not involved and they may not experience such huge losses during the showdowns between the champions. Being Honor and binding Odium, it is not hard to imagine Tanavast imposes the "equal firepower" rule on Odium to reduce casualty.

 

I think the Desolations were horrifyingly destructive right from the start, even before the Knights Radiant. This is based on this quote from Dalinar's vision from Honor.

 

 

"The Knights Radiant," the Almighty said... "They were a solution, a way to offset the destruction of the Desolations. Ten orders of knights, founded with the purpose of helping men fight, then rebuild."

 

You could still be right, however, about the Knights Radiant leading to an escalation of the conflict, but the sides were still similarly matched and so Roshar was still, well, desolated.

 

Theory 2: 

 

I make this assumption because Odium is obviously considered as a worshippable god on Roshar rather than a devil in hell. "Three of sixteen ruled, now the broken one reigns." The opponent of the Almighty should not be considered a ruler of the world, no matter how powerful he is, right? The Titans, the giants in Norwegian myths are all powerful and arguably more powerful than the worshipped gods, but they're not considered rulers of Earth.

 

Your quote that you use to support this is one of the death rattles from the epigraphs, is it not? Those contain a lot of information that would not be known to almost anyone on Roshar. I don't remember any groups, besides maybe the Parshendi, who were even aware of the existence of Odium. Doesn't the Vorin religion only teach about the Voidbringers as being the enemies of the Almighty, and not Odium? I would not say that Odium is a worshiped god on Roshar.

 

Theory 3:

 

Hoid and his friends may unite to form an opposition to Adonalsium and finally succeeded in killing and thus shattering him. Now, since the God is full of wrath, Odium the shard is actually the strongest of all and he can easily kill any other shard so long as they're alone.

 

I can't find it at the moment, but somewhere out in the ether is a WoB which says that all of the Shards started on very equal footing, Investiture-wise, and that Odium has only become stronger than many Shards because he has not Invested as much of his power in people and planets as other Shards have, similar to how Ruin was stronger than Preservation because Preservation Invested more into humanity than Ruin did.

Edited February 9, 2016 by King's Twit

[PallonianFire]

 

 

I can't find it at the moment, but somewhere out in the ether is a WoB which says that all of the Shards started on very equal footing, Investiture-wise, and that Odium is stronger than many Shards because he has not Invested as much of his power in people and planets as other Shards have, similar to how Ruin was stronger than Preservation because Preservation Invested more into humanity than Ruin did.

 

And his particular Intent allows him to splinter Shards more easily than other Shards might be able to.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Killing people who disagree with you sounds dishonorable to me. if that was his motivation, then one, i do not see why he would allow himself to be shattered so early from the end game of shattering all the other shards to unite them as adonalsium. Second, if a shattered shard if left alone long enough, it could gain sentience. So shattering them by itself wouldn't be enough otherwise you would still have an entity to contend with. So shattering them with the goal of joining them, would require some sort of mechanism to keep them shattered, which I have not seen any hint or mention of. Finally if Odium convinced Honor this was a good idea, and then back stabbed him by shattering him too, then again that is far too early to pull the back stab. it would make more sense to wait till 90 percent or more of the shards are taken care of. Otherwise he is just hamstringing himself. Not saying the theory is wrong, just that it doesn't fit right for myself.

Well, strategically, it would make more sense for Odium to hit Honor when Honor thinks he still has 90% of the objective left to complete, therefore making him less watchful than he would be further down the road. Other than that I agree with you. Edited February 10, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Pathfinder]

Well, strategically, it would make more sense for Odium to hit Honor when Honor thinks he still has 90% of the objective left to complete, therefore making him less watchful than he would be further down the road. Other than that I agree with you.

Lol I think the opposite. If i am trying to take out 15 people, and I ally myself with one of those 15 to help take the others out, it is now 2 against 14. Subtract 2 that we take out by working together leaves us 12 shards to still fight. I betray honor, leaves 12 shards I now have to fight 1 against 12. If however I wait, then the odds are still 2 to 12. This gives me added strength to reduce the opposing number to a more manageable amount till ideally either only honor remains, for the cinematic backstab, or the opposing force is reduced significantly enough that I would be able to manage them alone. To still have 75 percent left active and ready to fight you, and only you when you could have still had an ally, is strategically unsound. Add to the fact of Hamorny scaring Odium because he is two shards combined. If Honor and Odium had been working together, he is sure as crem kicking himself now by leaving himself outclassed when had he not backstabbed honor, he would be on level with Harmony. And that is not counting theories about autonomy. If Odium is in fact working with him, then he would have had nothing to fear from Harmony because there would have been three shards to Harmony's two. It just doesn't make sense when you have resources to accomplish a goal, to destroy those resources so early unless there is a compelling reason, or ability to further that goal without those resources. That's standard Sun Tzu logistics. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Pathfinder