theory Voidbringers, the Knights Radiant, and Gavilar

[Oversleep]

Also an additional note on this

It is easy to say Ameram and possibly even Gavilar were misguided in thinking that the voidbringers returning meant other things like the radiants returning

But we should also remember that Nin, Herald of justice, has a quite similar belief...

For one reason or other, the presence of voidbringers and the presence of radiants are closely linked to each other. The actions of all these characters imply that you can't have one without the other.

Possibly something to do with how the shards invest. They try to maintain a balance, perhaps? The shard of honor is dead, so it would mindlessly try to balance anything odium is doing.

Sons of Honor wanted the return of Voidbringers because it meant that Heralds come back. There is a correlation, but you got causation wrong - spren anticipate Desolation, so they start bonding with humans (according to Taravangian).

It is implied that when a Herald breaks under torture, Heralds are sent to Roshar and Desolation follows.

Unfortunately we know next to nothing about the exact mechanism of Desolations. The fact that The Last Desolation and Everstorm are different from the previous ones doesn't help.

You may want to check this topic.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Oversleep

[Ari he/him]

I mean that is not confirmed in any way and, from my knowledge in Mistborn forums, is not the forum consensus. Big assumption!

 

 

Do we even know of anything else with glowing red eyes? I mean, it might not be a Voidbringer, but to date Voidbringers are the only thing that would be a candidate for what it is...

[Pathfinder]

Do we even know of anything else with glowing red eyes? I mean, it might not be a Voidbringer, but to date Voidbringers are the only thing that would be a candidate for what it is...

have you read bands of mourning?

 

Marasi described the southern scadrielian much like the newspaper did before she realized it was just a person in a mask. The glowing eyes are probably an embellishment of a newspaper

Edited March 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[entropist]

have you read bands of mourning?

Marasi described the southern scadrielian much like the newspaper did before she realized it was just a person in a mask. The glowing eyes are probably an embellishment of a newspaper

I think he was referring to the creature who visits Suit at the end of the book, not the creature described in the newspaper. Although the two may be related.

[Pathfinder]

I think he was referring to the creature who visits Suit at the end of the book, not the creature described in the newspaper. Although the two may be related.

Ah if that is the case, then I understand ari's assumption more now. Personally I am on the fence between that, and the dominion/devotion theory. Haven't seen enough evidence either way to sway me definitively to either side yet.  

[Ari he/him]

Ah if that is the case, then I understand ari's assumption more now. Personally I am on the fence between that, and the dominion/devotion theory. Haven't seen enough evidence either way to sway me definitively to either side yet.  

 

Yeah I was talking about the creature that visited Suit, not the one in the boardsheet, I thought it was pretty obvious from the narrative that the broadsheet was actually referring to southern Scadrians.

 

I'm really not sure what else would fit the description of the being that visited the Suit other than a Voidbringer. Looking at the BoM forums there seems to be a bunch of baseless speculation about Svrakiss or Kandra spiked with alien god metals, or something we've never even heard of that works like a Kandra- I can't see any reason to suspect the Svrakiss, (the floated rationale that they can take over bodies doesn't gel, as we don't even know that that was what was going on) and any kandra would need to be just as insane as Paalm was at the end to function without Harmony seizing them. The only evidence we got given was glowing red eyes, which we know Parshendi Voidbringer forms possess.

 

If the Svrakiss are involved, it's because they're a Selish name for Voidbringers IMO.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Ari

[Pathfinder]

Yeah I was talking about the creature that visited Suit, not the one in the boardsheet, I thought it was pretty obvious from the narrative that the broadsheet was actually referring to southern Scadrians.

 

I'm really not sure what else would fit the description of the being that visited the Suit other than a Voidbringer. Looking at the BoM forums there seems to be a bunch of baseless speculation about Svrakiss or Kandra spiked with alien god metals, or something we've never even heard of that works like a Kandra- I can't see any reason to suspect the Svrakiss, (the floated rationale that they can take over bodies doesn't gel, as we don't even know that that was what was going on) and any kandra would need to be just as insane as Paalm was at the end to function without Harmony seizing them. The only evidence we got given was glowing red eyes, which we know Parshendi Voidbringer forms possess.

 

If the Svrakiss are involved, it's because they're a Selish name for Voidbringers IMO.

I am going to spoiler just in case because I will be referencing a lot of books so rather err on the side of caution

 

I agree it is far from conclusive, but I think saying it is baseless is also a stretch. We have seen Sel's interest in Scadrial in Secret History, and the rigid structure of the Set, each having a rank and standing very much like Wyrm's religion in Elantris is very telling. Again I am not sold completely myself, but I do see there are some valid points.

[Ari he/him]

It absolutely is baseless in terms of there is no direct evidence for it in any text that anyone is referencing. That's what "baseless" in "baseless speculation" means, you feel good about it, (and could even be right) but there's no real evidence to date to back it up.

 

The Ire's interest was in Preservation, not in Scadrial, remember. If they have continued interest in Scadrial for its Shards, they've essentially made the jump from scavenging from a dead vessel to wanting to murder a live one. I'm not sure you can assume that when we have direct evidence suggesting Odium's involvement in whatever was going on. We have no evidence that the Ire's interest in Sel has morphed into a different type of interest and continued. We have no evidence anyone from Sel is even on Scadrial yet. They're speculating to fuel speculation because they've invested very heavily in their theory.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

...and through all of this theory I seem to have forgotten about Gavilar's sphere...

Which I would say is a bit important. There is some confirmation that this artifact is of another shard.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1078#9

 

So chances are, Gavilar's agenda is closely tied to that of an interfering shard. Odium perhaps (it would make some sense if he was trying to restore the voidbringers), but more likely a new shard. One that isn't invested on roshar particularly, but appears to be meddling in some ways...

[CaptainRyan he/him]

The only evidence we got given was glowing red eyes, which we know Parshendi Voidbringer forms possess.

 

This is exactly why I distrust the connection between the creature at the end of BoM and Voidbringers. Sanderson is drawing way too straight of a line between to two for me to invest (pun intended) in the Red Eyes == Voidbringer theory. I think the phrase, "There is always another secret", applies quite nicely here.

[Nedyah Drallid]

Does anyone have the exact quote for that part of the story? My impression is that it was one of the kaandra that didn't pull their spikes out at the end of Hero of Ages. If I remember correctly, it said something about the form he was now using. Perhaps this is just a crazy assumption that I had no evidence for.

[Blackhoof]

Suit referred to it as one of Trell's own Faceless Immortals, which implies in context to me that Suit just meant like "divine agent on earth" as opposed to literally a Kandra. Much like how you could say a demon is one of the Devil's own angels.

I think "this form" meant it possessed some homeless guy.

I'd assume those Kandra survived and are with Harmony now. They were defeated, but not killed, i see no reason they wouldn't still be around. It isn't like Odium ever controlled them.

[Nedyah Drallid]

Suit referred to it as one of Trell's own Faceless Immortals, which implies in context to me that Suit just meant like "divine agent on earth" as opposed to literally a Kandra. Much like how you could say a demon is one of the Devil's own angels.

Funny analogy, as Christian, and most other religions, doctrine states that demons are angels who have turned.

[Argel he/him]

This is exactly why I distrust the connection between the creature at the end of BoM and Voidbringers. Sanderson is drawing way too straight of a line between to two for me to invest (pun intended) in the Red Eyes == Voidbringer theory. I think the phrase, "There is always another secret", applies quite nicely here.

 

Brandon could be trying to give casual readers a clue about the connection. He could also be playing mind games with us.

[Vissy]

Kandra are Harmony's. I feel like it could be a svrakiss or something else from Sel.

[Blackhoof]

And if Svrakiss are anything like the stories - spirits that hated Jaddeth and could possess people, then they are likely voidspren/Odium related too.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Well we know that there is some kind of shard (or similar force?) that is hostile to Scadrial. Not only is there the glowing red-eye creature in bands of mourning, but there is also the vision Sazed shows Wax.

 

And odium so far as we know does favor the color red. Some shards appear to have color preferences (I wonder what endowment's favorite color is, given how closely tied colors are to nalthis magic...)

 

But it could be a totally different shard than odium, especially since odium is already rather busy I think, and because Rayse is scared of Sazed last I checked.

 

And considering the fact that it can actually be concerning to Sazed, who holds two shards, it could be more than simply a hostile individual shard.

[Nedyah Drallid]

And odium so far as we know does favor the color red. Some shards appear to have color preferences (I wonder what endowment's favorite color is, given how closely tied colors are to nalthis magic...)

I've always suspected that Shards have their own colors, but what was Ruin's color? Was it red, because I remember it being red, but that could just be my own imagination.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I've always suspected that Shards have their own colors, but what was Ruin's color? Was it red, because I remember it being red, but that could just be my own imagination.

M:SH spoilers

Kelsier saw Ruin as a black mist in the Cognitive Realm. I think Ruin is associated with the color black.

[Nedyah Drallid]

M:SH spoilers

Kelsier saw Ruin as a black mist in the Cognitive Realm. I think Ruin is associated with the color black.

Okay, thanks for that. Maybe it was just the blood associated with Hemalurgy that got me thinking that.

[Argel he/him]

M:SH spoilers

Kelsier saw Ruin as a black mist in the Cognitive Realm. I think Ruin is associated with the color black.

 

If I recall recent WoBs correctly, black is the result of mixing shard powers (also said mixing is what some call corruption).

 

We  also need to be careful mixing colors from the CR and PR. We might need a list for each. I don't think we  should assume there is a one-for-one relationship between CR and PR  colors.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Argel

[happyman he/him]

It's pretty obvious from the Mistborn annotations that Preservation's color is White and Ruin's color is Black.  This is why, in HoA, Vin wears black and Elend wears white-together, they were balanced.  (This is while Vin is wearing the earring, so it is appropriate to consider her an emissary of Ruin at that point.  Obviously it changed.)

 

One of the annotations from FE mentions that TLR deliberately chose to wear Black and White to represent his connections with the two powers.  The annotation goes on to say that this a lie, because TLR had only touched one of the powers, and only lightly at that.  Sazed, the true hero, touched both equally.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I'm not sure if all the shards have a color so to speak... Especially since with 16 shards there is bound to be overlap.

But it seems that shards do have color affiliations, like ruin being associated with black, and preservation white. There are numerous instances of this, most of which you have already pointed out.

It just seems to me that odium favors the color red. The voidbringers are notably dominated by a red color scheme, red lightning, a red everstorm...

I'm not saying that the instances of red eyes in BoM is odium at all... I think Sanderson might want to make us think that...

But it is worth noting the red eyes and their obvious affiliations. It could straight up be odium meddling.