theory Origin of Shardplate

[Fiddler]

Hey all, this is gonna be my first theory. I hope it hasn't been brought forward in this way.

 

I have been musing about the origins of Shardplate. I got this idea on my current reread of WoR, in one of Dalinars visions.

 

 

Not just a Shardbearer. Radiant. A knight in resplendent Shardplate that glowed with a deep red at the joints an in certain markings.

(Emphasis is mine)

 

So i went back to WoK:

 

It wasn't a start at all. It was a man - a man in glowing blue Shardplate, bearing a Shardblade, trails of Stormlight rising from his body.

(Emphasis is mine)

From the arrival of the KR, falling from the sky, it seems a good assumtion, that this is either a Windrunner or Skybreaker.

 

Same chapter, the KR that heals Dalinars vision character:

 

The female Shardbearer stood; her armor glowed with an even amber light.

(Emphasis is mine)

 

The next quotes are from Dalinar's vision at Feverstonekeep.

 

"... the Order of the Stonewards, my lod," the still-mounted scout was saying. "And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot."

 

Dalinar looking out at the charging KR:

 

As they drew closer, Dalinar could see that their Plate was unpainted, but it glowed either blue or amber at the joints and across glyphs at the front, as with other Radiants he'd seen in his visions.

(Emphasis is mine)

 

With these quote, it's a good assumtion, that the Orders had Plate glowing with specific colors.

 

What really got me into this theory, is the fact, that both Kaladin and Shallan attract huge amounts of Wind-/Creationspren.

 

From Kaladins first flight in WoR:

 

Syl and her cousins twisted around him in a spiral of light, free and loose, but with a hint of coordination.

(Emphasis is mine)

 

Syl was first described as a Windspren, though this is obviously wrong. But she shares some basic personality traits with them, i.e. playing pranks, flying around in highstorms. At multiple points in the story she calls the Stormfather her father, which seems like a good indication, that she is somewhat related to Windspren.

 

Now 2 quotes about Shallan, boath aboard the Winds Pleasure:

 

The art consumed her, and creationspren popped into existence all around. Dozens of tiny shapes soon crowded the small table beside her cot and the floor of the cabin near where she knelt.

 

Here she is drawing Pattern, notice the amount of creationspren:

 

She blinked, again noticing the creationspren around her - there were hundreds.

 

 

So with all this in mind, I went to check the WoB for any hints Brandon might have dropped there.

 

Question

My question was about Shards actually. So at the end of Words of Radiance Syl is turning into a Shardblade as well as other different weapons. And Kaladin has a whole bunch of Windspren around him. And I am wondering if that is a precursor to Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

I think you are a very smart man and you are asking wise questions.

 

 

So with this quote I think it's save to assume, that Shardplate, much like Shardblades, were originally spren. Lesser spren, related to the bonded spren, that would form Shardplate.

 

A very likely spren coupling is Honor- and Windspren for Windrunners.

 

I presume something like this will come light for the other Orders as well. (Cryptics and Creationspren, maybe?)

 

 

TL;DR: Original Shardplate was formed by lesser spren.

 

edit: typos

Edited January 24, 2016 by Fiddler

[KaIadin he/him]

Great theory. This seems to be very likely, though I wish we had a definite answer from Brandon.

Edited January 23, 2016 by KaIadin StormbIessed

[Rasarr she/her]

I was thinking about something similar, and came across the following WoB:

 

 

 

QUESTION

My question was about Shards actually. So at the end of Words of Radiance Syl is turning into a Shardblade as well as other different weapons. And Kaladin has a whole bunch of Windspren around him. And I am wondering if that is a precursor to Shardplate?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I think you are a very smart man and you are asking wise questions.

 

Original here.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Rasarr

[Oversleep]

I believe there was already a thread about that very idea.

[Fiddler]

I was thinking about something similar, and came across the following WoB:

 

 

Original here.

 

If you would have read my post, you would have seen that i included the very same quote at the end of it...

 

I believe there was already a thread about that very idea.

I have guessed so, but I'm relatively new to the forum and thought i have to start somewhere. Necroing an old thread usually never yields the same results.

[Rasarr she/her]

If you would have read my post, you would have seen that i included the very same quote at the end of it...

 

Ah, sorry. I was rather tired while writing that, failed to notice one last quotebox. But generally, I absolutely agree with the theory.

 

What would Bondsmiths make their armour of, then? Stormspren are some sort of Odium thing apparently, so maybe rainspren?

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Ah, sorry. I was rather tired while writing that, failed to notice one last quotebox. But generally, I absolutely agree with the theory.

 

What would Bondsmiths make their armour of, then? Stormspren are some sort of Odium thing apparently, so maybe rainspren?

He might not have any plate. He is supposed to be a Radiant without shards, IIRC.

[Rasarr she/her]

He might not have any plate. He is supposed to be a Radiant without shards, IIRC.

 

True enough. 

*gets back to re-reading WoR*

[Fiddler]

On the bondsmith:

 

But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

From Words of Radiance, Roshar edition

 

So apperantly there was never a big number of bondsmith and i assume not all KR had Plate, since not all of them were out on the battlefield. (Jasnah mentions this at some point)

[hoidhunter he/him]

I've seen this idea on the forum before...and I think it makes a lot of sense.  (especially when supported by a positive WoB)

 

Assuming that this is true...what I'm curious about is this...does this mean that every piece of shard plate in the world is essentially a dead "lesser" spren.  And the reason that knights radiant don't have a bad reaction to touching them is simply that they don't matter that much?

[Fiddler]

I just found another quote, correlating to the Stormfather (and maybe Bondsmith):

 

"Not just on people," Pattern said, solemn. "Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance."

(Emphasis is mine)

 

So according to Pattern, the Stormfather has bonded to humans before and survived the Recreance.

 

 

I've seen this idea on the forum before...and I think it makes a lot of sense.  (especially when supported by a positive WoB)

 

Assuming that this is true...what I'm curious about is this...does this mean that every piece of shard plate in the world is essentially a dead "lesser" spren.  And the reason that knights radiant don't have a bad reaction to touching them is simply that they don't matter that much?

I would assume, it's because those lesser spren don't have consciousness.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

I've seen this idea on the forum before...and I think it makes a lot of sense.  (especially when supported by a positive WoB)

 

Assuming that this is true...what I'm curious about is this...does this mean that every piece of shard plate in the world is essentially a dead "lesser" spren.  And the reason that knights radiant don't have a bad reaction to touching them is simply that they don't matter that much?

 

 

It's probably less "they don't matter that much" and a lot more that they aren't sapient, and so don't get trapped in mind hell when the bond is broken, cause they had nothing to loose.

 

Probably.

 

Edit: Beaten to the punch by seconds

Edited January 24, 2016 by Master_Moridin

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Ah, sorry. I was rather tired while writing that, failed to notice one last quotebox. But generally, I absolutely agree with the theory.

 

What would Bondsmiths make their armour of, then? Stormspren are some sort of Odium thing apparently, so maybe rainspren?

 

Well bondsmiths presumably aren't all bound to the stormfather. A quote from "words of radiance" (not as in the second book in the stormlight archive, but rather as in the account of the knight's radiant present in sanderson's book) states that there were usually around three bondsmiths at one time (much less than other orders but still more than one).

They may well have all lacked shardblades and shardplate though.

 

Oh I see somebody else already brought up that quote I was talking about

 

Also, it is also quite possible that radiants can touch shardplate because those spren aren't really dead. An honorspren would be broken when the person they were bonded to turned their back on honor. But a windspren... Might not be killed by the oath breaking.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[DreamEternal]

Well bondsmiths presumably aren't all bound to the stormfather. A quote from "words of radiance" (not as in the second book in the stormlight archive, but rather as in the account of the knight's radiant present in sanderson's book) states that there were usually around three bondsmiths at one time (much less than other orders but still more than one).

The Stormfather is his own category and seems to follow completely different rules from regular nahel-bond spren more often than not. I wouldn't put it past his capacities to bond multiple people.

It could also explain his survival to the recreance, the usual limit of three, which is implied to be possible to exceed, and his relutance to bond humans: when a bondsmith breaks oaths, he tears part of the Stormfather's mind and spiritweb apart, but being so much greater than a regular spren, he survived it once... or twice... or thrice... but ge is afraid he will be unable to do so again when( since he thinks it is inevitable) Dalinar forswears.

[DSC01 he/him]

I don't think we necessarily have any reason to believe that no Bondsmith ever had any Shards. Not only might it be particular to the Stormfather, but it also may be something he just recently decided on. He was pretty upset about the Recreance. The way he asks if Dalinar is willing to be a Radiant without Shards suggests that maybe this has never been asked of a Radiant before. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I don't think we necessarily have any reason to believe that no Bondsmith ever had any Shards. Not only might it be particular to the Stormfather, but it also may be something he just recently decided on. He was pretty upset about the Recreance. The way he asks if Dalinar is willing to be a Radiant without Shards suggests that maybe this has never been asked of a Radiant before. 

This also implies that he hasn't ever bonded with somebody... But then, what other spren would create a bondsmith then?

[DSC01 he/him]

I was saying that he has bonded with someone before, and he actually was willing to become a Shardblade then. After the major betrayal of the Recreance, he isn't so keen on entering the Physical Realm so concretely anymore. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Hm... Maybe. Wait, does that mean there might be a handful of shardblades on Roshar that are little pieces of the stormfather that died?

[DreamEternal]

Hm... Maybe. Wait, does that mean there might be a handful of shardblades on Roshar that are little pieces of the stormfather that died?

Now that is something I didn't think about. Maybe we just found the dawnshards?

More seriously, maybe he can only become a single super shardblade, and he chooses when, so the oathbreaking didn't leave Stormblades around because he survived.

Edited January 26, 2016 by DreamEternal

[icy1155]

Now that is something I didn't think about. Maybe we just found the dawnshards?

More seriously, maybe he can only become a single super shardblade, and he chooses when, so the oathbreaking didn't leave Stormblades around because he survived.

 

My thoughts exactly.  My belief is that Dawnshards refers to spren that existed prior to Honor/Cultivation/Odium that formed a Nahel bond and became shards that were far more powerful since they were pieces of Adonalsium, not pieces of 1/16 of Adonalsium.

[HurinThalion he/him]

If shardplate is actually made of multiple spren, which I accept as a great theory, I have three questions: 

1. How does the visor black out to protect the wearer from lightning, as in the end of WoR (pretty sure that happened, too lazy to go dig the book out)

 

2. How is shardplate powered by gems?

 

3. How can you regrow a full set by feeding one piece stormlight?

 

 

 

I think, assuming this theory to be true, two and three could lead to some interesting points. If shardplate, made of spren, is powered by stormlight, is it reasonable to assume you could somehow power a shardblade with stormlight? what would it do? 

[Pathfinder]

If shardplate is actually made of multiple spren, which I accept as a great theory, I have three questions: 

1. How does the visor black out to protect the wearer from lightning, as in the end of WoR (pretty sure that happened, too lazy to go dig the book out)

 

2. How is shardplate powered by gems?

 

3. How can you regrow a full set by feeding one piece stormlight?

 

 

 

I think, assuming this theory to be true, two and three could lead to some interesting points. If shardplate, made of spren, is powered by stormlight, is it reasonable to assume you could somehow power a shardblade with stormlight? what would it do? 

Well shardblades are made of dead spren and yet they are still able to cut through any non living matter, and phase through flesh cutting the limbs spiritual connection, so why shouldn't shardplate still have some of its functionality? 

[Rasarr she/her]

If shardplate is actually made of multiple spren, which I accept as a great theory, I have three questions: 

1. How does the visor black out to protect the wearer from lightning, as in the end of WoR (pretty sure that happened, too lazy to go dig the book out)

 

2. How is shardplate powered by gems?

 

3. How can you regrow a full set by feeding one piece stormlight?

 

 

 

I think, assuming this theory to be true, two and three could lead to some interesting points. If shardplate, made of spren, is powered by stormlight, is it reasonable to assume you could somehow power a shardblade with stormlight? what would it do? 

 

1. My guess would be that the spren that makes up the visor is moving a bit further "towards" Cognitive Realm so that it's less visible in Physical Realm. No idea how the visor would keep being protective, though.

 

2. The same way Shardblades can be bonded and unbonded via gems and the Honorblade of Szeth's needs idiotic amounts of Stormlight to fuel it. I'd suppose it's necessary because Plate's original "power source" - which would be spren? - was lost with sprens' death. Kind of like jury-rigging a diesel motor to solar-powered machine because solar cells were broken.

 

3. Perhaps shattering a Shardplate sends the spren back into Cognitive Realm and feeding it with Stormlight "pulls" them back in?

 

As for what would happen if you fuelled Shardblade with Stormlight, if I recall correctly, Shardblades change their appearance a little bit over time (anybody has WoB or can disprove this?). Maybe actively feeding the Blade with Stormlight could replicate the shape-changing capability to some extent?

[Oversleep]

Q: Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

A: It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

source

It gives a new context to Stormfather telling Dalinar he will be a Radiant without Shards.

[scifan he/him]

1. My guess would be that the spren that makes up the visor is moving a bit further "towards" Cognitive Realm so that it's less visible in Physical Realm. No idea how the visor would keep being protective, though.

 

2. The same way Shardblades can be bonded and unbonded via gems and the Honorblade of Szeth's needs idiotic amounts of Stormlight to fuel it. I'd suppose it's necessary because Plate's original "power source" - which would be spren? - was lost with sprens' death. Kind of like jury-rigging a diesel motor to solar-powered machine because solar cells were broken.

 

3. Perhaps shattering a Shardplate sends the spren back into Cognitive Realm and feeding it with Stormlight "pulls" them back in?

 

As for what would happen if you fuelled Shardblade with Stormlight, if I recall correctly, Shardblades change their appearance a little bit over time (anybody has WoB or can disprove this?). Maybe actively feeding the Blade with Stormlight could replicate the shape-changing capability to some extent?

 

When thinking about #2...

 

I remember that Kaladin notes after saying the 2nd oath that he can use stormlight more effectively... I interpret that to mean it requires less to do the same thing... and I believe the effect was amplified after the 3rd oath was said... 

 

That being said, I wonder if after the 4th oath he will have the ability to "power" the armor because while he can consume/hold a significant amount, he won't "need" as much for other activities... 

 

Also, I tend to wonder if when the lesser spren are "alive" if they won't require as much stormlight power...

 

Just a thought or two...

 

I also find it interesting how Syl can shift her form/requirements as Kaladin needs/desires... and I wonder if that won't play a role with shard plate...

 

dunno