How would you catch an allomantic assassin?

[Pathfinder]

Coinshots don't need a clear line between themselves and the target, just between the weapon and the target, same as a Lurcher.

You don't need to use any anchors at all, and if you did the easiest anchor would be one directly behind you, which would not narrow it down at all.

DNA isn't foolproof but it's the closest thing we have, due to how our crimes are commited (Generally in solitude, so that there are no witnesses) establishing that someone was there means they either committed or witnessed the murder, so yeah pretty close to foolproof. Get DNA off of a murder weapon and you have a very strong case.

That was my point, you need a clear line between the shooter and the victim. Someone standing in the way would get killed or hurt and indicate all the more where the shooter is. You say you do not need anchors, yet your example with the lurcher was yanking nails and screws out of a wall. How heavy is this lurcher that they can just stand there and tear apart a wall without being yanked foward? Also as I already pointed out, yanking on the anchor would damage it. You know based on the trajectory where the pull was coming from, you know roughly how much range there are on pushes and pulls (since it is a standard phenomena in this example), and you know what type of damage to look for. So just have a group of individuals start looking in that direction. That's how bullets are located for ballistic examination after a shooting. 

 

Ok if DNA is so fullproof then how about OJ Simpson? When I get home I am sure i can pull up 10 cases easy where despite DNA evidence, nothing conclusive was found or the person got off as there was a reason for the presence of that DNA

Edited January 12, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Voidus]

That was my point, you need a clear line between the shooter and the victim. Someone standing in the way would get killed or hurt and indicate all the more where the shooter is. You say you do not need anchors, yet your example with the lurcher was yanking nails and screws out of a wall. How heavy is this lurcher that they can just stand there and tear apart a wall without being yanked foward?

 

Ok if DNA is so fullproof then how about OJ Simpson? When I get home I am sure i can pull up 10 cases easy where despite DNA evidence, nothing conclusive was found or the person got off as there was a reason for the presence of that DNA

No, that was my point, you don't need a clear line between shooter and victim, if the victim is standing on one side of a wall the coinshot can be standing on the other side of the wall with a crowd of 500 people between them and still be able to push the nail in the wall through the person on the other side.

A skilled lurcher can manipulate how strongly they pull on something, apply a low level force on a nail for long enough and you can still pull it free.

Or pull a nail from a building 10 miles away with anchors then keep pulling it towards you until it's in a good position to murder someone. Or as I mentioned use something directly behind you as an anchor (And on that point, there's no feasible way to examine the stress on every piece of metal in the vicinity, and even if you could it's not going to give you a good direction, plus given how common allomancers are almost all of those metals will have been used as an anchor by someone at some point anyway.

Investigative techniques are flawed, DNA isn't going to convict someone 100% of the time, and not all DNA is useful, but it's one of the most reliable, consistent techniques we possess. DNA of a suspect under the fingernails of a victim is a pretty good sign that that person attacked the victim. DNA can place someone at a scene when all else fails, not even eyewitness testimony is as reliable. Fingerprints are flawed, camera footage can't see everything, but DNA doesn't lie.

[Oversleep]

Except for a coinshot there would need to be a clear line of fire from shooter to target limiting your pool, and if it was a lurcher I already pointed out using the stress on the anchors and the amount of damage done would help determine at what point of the "line" stood the lurcher. And motive is not impossible to ascertain. Examine the target's life, who they know and interact with. Based on the crime scene we would know what we would be working with, whether it is a coinshot, lurcher, or mistborn. Mistborn are rare enough that they could be outright discounted, or the pool is so narrow as to point the finger right at them. ALL evidence taken by itself is circumstantial. All DNA says is at some point you were at the location, and the time it takes to collect it degrades the accuracy. It is the gathering of multiple forms of evidence that convicts criminals. A large part of that is research. Research into the victim, who would want that individual killed, how would that murder be accomplished, and applied to how the murder was actually done. That is how murderers are caught. If DNA was so full proof then it would be country wide mandated that everyone has to provide a DNA sample and thus crime would be extinct. But that's not how it works. 

 

Yet by your own logic, a person can get an unregistered sniper rifle, get to the roof of a building, and shoot someone and no one will be able to catch that individual. Yet they do all the time. You mean to tell me no one is going to notice a coinshot flying up the side of a building? Not even the occupants of said building? And again pushing on a chandelier allows the forensics to determine origin of push which would lead them to the top of the building which there they could locate your wonderful magical smoking gun of DNA, finger prints, and so on. If DNA, finger prints, and foot prints were the only way a person could be convicted, then what do you think people did before those means even existed?

That was my point, you need a clear line between the shooter and the victim. Someone standing in the way would get killed or hurt and indicate all the more where the shooter is. You say you do not need anchors, yet your example with the lurcher was yanking nails and screws out of a wall. How heavy is this lurcher that they can just stand there and tear apart a wall without being yanked foward?

Ok if DNA is so fullproof then how about OJ Simpson? When I get home I am sure i can pull up 10 cases easy where despite DNA evidence, nothing conclusive was found or the person got off as there was a reason for the presence of that DNA

You do not need clear line between the shooter and the victim. You need a clear line between weapon and victim.

I already pointed out how there would be no stress on the anchors...

The killer doesn't have to know the victim.

The analogy with the sniper rifle is deeply flawed. The sniper has to somehow have clear line of shooting. He has to sneak in to that position.

Coinshot doesn't even need to see the person with his own eyes, he has steelsight. Coinshot can fly to almost anywhere and nobody, even if somebody has seen him do it, won't see his face.

The police would be able to determine that Coinshot was at the top of the building (or a Lurcher somewhere below) and nothing else. Fingerprints? On what? He didn't need to touch anything, and if he did, there are gloves. He didn't leave any DNA, why would he? Maybe he could leave behind a hair while jumping, but that won't help them find the man - it could be proof against him, but unless they have DNA database with him registered, that won't help them.

Footprints? Not really helpful. People can wear the same shoes. And Coinshot doesn't even need to stand on the ground, he can float all the time.

There is some issue with getting on the roof in the firstplace, but how often do you look out in the window?

 

They could also measure how much force it would take to move said chandelier, and use that to determine the strength of the Allomancer. Then they take their theoretical list of Metalborn and go to all the suspects and measure their strength and hope they haven't gone savant since then.

The difference in Allomantic strength is very little. Even if they knew how to measure it, you can burn metals at different rates, so that's not really helpful.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Oversleep

[Pathfinder]

No, that was my point, you don't need a clear line between shooter and victim, if the victim is standing on one side of a wall the coinshot can be standing on the other side of the wall with a crowd of 500 people between them and still be able to push the nail in the wall through the person on the other side.

A skilled lurcher can manipulate how strongly they pull on something, apply a low level force on a nail for long enough and you can still pull it free.

Or pull a nail from a building 10 miles away with anchors then keep pulling it towards you until it's in a good position to murder someone. Or as I mentioned use something directly behind you as an anchor (And on that point, there's no feasible way to examine the stress on every piece of metal in the vicinity, and even if you could it's not going to give you a good direction, plus given how common allomancers are almost all of those metals will have been used as an anchor by someone at some point anyway.

Investigative techniques are flawed, DNA isn't going to convict someone 100% of the time, and not all DNA is useful, but it's one of the most reliable, consistent techniques we possess. DNA of a suspect under the fingernails of a victim is a pretty good sign that that person attacked the victim. DNA can place someone at a scene when all else fails, not even eyewitness testimony is as reliable. Fingerprints are flawed, camera footage can't see everything, but DNA doesn't lie.

The wall is then damaged which reveals where you are. Each subsequent scenario you offer reveals the assassin's location more. Damaging surrounding environment can reveal countless things assuming you can even shoot a coin through a wall in a modern day setting with steel insets and thick plaster. But lets say you can, then the dust and debris from the shot gets thrown into the air. Shards could hit the shooter giving more evidence to track. The shooter had to get into the room somehow, which means people saw the shooter go in making him or her easier to identify. 

 

Have you ever tried to pull a nail out? No matter how subtle the pull, when a nail is driven into a building it is jammed in there good. So now our assassin is standing in one spot for an extended period of time, for multiple people to see them, while working on this one nail, waiting for his or her target to walk exactly in front of that one nail he or she has been working on? 

 

Since when has a push or a pull extended 10 miles?!?! You also mean to tell me the police wouldn't have their own pushers or pullers to view steel or iron lines to find what would have been good anchors in that scenario?

 

DNA does in fact lie, and as I said tonight I will be happy to provide numerous examples of exactly that. When DNA has been employed to convict someone, it was thanks to that and additional evidence. 

[Voidus]

The wall is then damaged which reveals where you are. Each subsequent scenario you offer reveals the assassin's location more. Damaging surrounding environment can reveal countless things assuming you can even shoot a coin through a wall in a modern day setting with steel insets and thick plaster. But lets say you can, then the dust and debris from the shot gets thrown into the air. Shards could hit the shooter giving more evidence to track. The shooter had to get into the room somehow, which means people saw the shooter go in making him or her easier to identify. 

 

Have you ever tried to pull a nail out? No matter how subtle the pull, when a nail is driven into a building it is jammed in there good. So now our assassin is standing in one spot for an extended period of time, for multiple people to see them, while working on this one nail, waiting for his or her target to walk exactly in front of that one nail he or she has been working on? 

 

Since when has a push or a pull extended 10 miles?!?! You also mean to tell me the police wouldn't have their own pushers or pullers to view steel or iron lines to find what would have been good anchors in that scenario?

 

DNA does in fact lie, and as I said tonight I will be happy to provide numerous examples of exactly that. When DNA has been employed to convict someone, it was thanks to that and additional evidence. 

It again reveals a line extending in both directions, anyone on that line could be the murderer. And I suggested pushing a nail out of a wall rather than shooting a coin through it.

So? They entered a room, along with 50 other people. Anyone in that room, or the room behind them, or the room behind that, or the room in front of them (Since there's little way to tell whether it was a lurcher or coinshot, the line extends in both directions) could be the killer.

I've never had magic powers that could grasp the nail perfectly, the main difficulty in pulling a nail out is getting a grip on it, I've never needed to use anything even remotely approaching my full weight to pull a nail.

Pull it out while you're 10 miles away, then, without touching it, continue pulling it til you're in the right area, not pull it from 10 miles away. In a modern city? There would be thousands of reliable anchors, plenty of which (Those along the line of probable killer) would tell you absolutely nothing. Most of which would have been subjected to plenty of stress anyway, from general wear, as well as other Allomancers. There's absolutely no way you could tell that the stress on a metal was caused by one particular incident. The weight of one person wouldn't even warp most kinds of metal, especially not those used in heavy construction since they're designed to withstand the weight of hundreds of people.

No it doesn't, people can make mistaken assumptions but the DNA meant exactly what it said, that that piece of organic matter belongs to that person.

[natc]

DNA definitely can't lie.

Whether there can be multiple matches to the surviving portion of the sample or whether the guy is actually guilty is a different matter. But it can't BS you, it must match the person in actuality.

[Edgedancer he/him]

I can see Metalborn Registraction Act thing going on... How would you force somebody to reveal himself being Feruchemist? You can't force anybody to store. The same problem with Allomancy, you can't just force somebody to swallow something and even if you manage that, there is no way to force him to burn.

Not to mention the social issues with registrating people only because they are Metalborn.

For more problems like catching Metalborn killers check out the topic "Everyday life on Shardworlds" in my sign

Hemalurgy? Do some accupuncture spiking that doesn't actually have a chance of hurting the subject, as long as you don't rip out their soul, for every power, if they claim to have nothing. If they told you the truth nothing happened and if they lied... human rights are so going to outlaw this method.

[DeadFencer]

The only reason registration acts are controversial in real life is because they target normal people for no reason other than prejudice. Metalborn actually have powers that make them dangerous. Registration for them would be like gun licenses- protecting others from a genuine threat.

[Moogle]

If I were an Allomancer, I would be strongly against any sort of registry. You're helping Hemalurgists find targets. Not that Hemalurgy is well-known for now, but at what point does the cat get out of the bag?

[Pathfinder]

You do not need clear line between the shooter and the victim. You need a clear line between weapon and victim.

I already pointed out how there would be no stress on the anchors...

The killer doesn't have to know the victim.

The analogy with the sniper rifle is deeply flawed. The sniper has to somehow have clear line of shooting. He has to sneak in to that position.

Coinshot doesn't even need to see the person with his own eyes, he has steelsight. Coinshot can fly to almost anywhere and nobody, even if somebody has seen him do it, won't see his face.

The police would be able to determine that Coinshot was at the top of the building (or a Lurcher somewhere below) and nothing else. Fingerprints? On what? He didn't need to touch anything, and if he did, there are gloves. He didn't leave any DNA, why would he? Maybe he could leave behind a hair while jumping, but that won't help them find the man - it could be proof against him, but unless they have DNA database with him registered, that won't help them.

Footprints? Not really helpful. People can wear the same shoes. And Coinshot doesn't even need to stand on the ground, he can float all the time.

There is some issue with getting on the roof in the firstplace, but how often do you look out in the window?

 

The difference in Allomantic strength is very little. Even if they knew how to measure it, you can burn metals at different rates, so that's not really helpful.

 

Ok, this is getting into semantics. That is my point, the original example was that a coin started from coinshot (gloved so no fingerprints) to then shoot to victim. You need a line that is clear from the origin of the coin to the target. Point A to Point B. If you then want to claim that you would use a random person’s buttons or change in their pocket, you are still ripping it from that person. Which will call attention to the occurance, and still result in a line. All pushes are straight out and all pulls are straight in. If it was psychokinesis we are talking about, then you have me, but we aren’t. We are talking about a projectile with a definable trajectory. We are talking about a world where coinshots and lurchers exist and are normal. So the investigator would know how both work, and thereby would know to look for all my examples. The killer is still an individual that does not live in a bubble. If the killer has no personal connection to the victim, then they were hired by someone. So by investigating the victim and finding out why someone would want the person dead, you can work your way back. Find those people that want the victim dead, investigate their means, their financial statements. Track their movements prior to the death. That way you can get your “smoking gun” to prove they hired a hitman and also by doing so learn the identity of said hitman. All without a single personal connection between the hitman and target. 

 

I have already commented regarding the line of shoot. The coin shot has to also sneak into whatever position, unless he somehow has become invisible. Flying up to the top of the build yields us these situations. One the coin shot does so the night before so as to not be observed. Said coinshot has to now wait on the room all night till the appointed time the next day which risks leaving evidence. If the coinshot goes up during the day, then there are people within the building to see said coinshot go to the roof. Finally in your scenario you mention a coinshot going to a room, which implies the target is outside on the street to be shot, yet mention using a chandelier in which to kill the target. Where is this chandelier being suspended from in this example? Also Voidus assumes that a coin can be shot 10 miles away. When Vin flew up to the top of the wall in Luthadel she reached the limit of her push. Average height of a town wall is 30 ft. But let me push things in your favor. Let us double it to 60 feet. That is still incredibly shy of the 52,800 feet that is 10 miles. Now a typical story on a building is 10 feet. So in this example our coinshot could stand on a 6 story building and still get his coin to his target. Except now the target is the size of a penny, your steel lines are super thin and all mushed together with every other person down there. That is assuming the target is carrying metal to find via steel line and that you can pick out which steel line is your targets. Finally due to your distance you also have to worry about windspeed as the coin reaches the extent of your range, the force of your push has diminished as well as due to how high up you are. Regarding evidence, the same would apply as if the hitman were on ground floor. Shoeprints, threads from the gloves, and eye witness accounts when the hitman then flees the scene. As for identifying the hitman even if he did not leave any DNA evidence, please reference my point above regarding researching the victim. If the coinshot is floating above the building, unless he is hemalurgically spiked line Zane, that compromises further his already impressive and unlikely shot of 6 stories away. Sniper rifles are designed to shoot at that kind of distance, coinshots are not. How often do people look out the window? Have you ever been bored at work? Wanted to check what the weather looks like outside before you go to lunch? Check on your car parked below? Heard a noise outside and decided to take a peek? Add to the fact that it is a 6 story building, and there are now a lot  of people that can chance peeking out.

 

It again reveals a line extending in both directions, anyone on that line could be the murderer. And I suggested pushing a nail out of a wall rather than shooting a coin through it.

So? They entered a room, along with 50 other people. Anyone in that room, or the room behind them, or the room behind that, or the room in front of them (Since there's little way to tell whether it was a lurcher or coinshot, the line extends in both directions) could be the killer.

I've never had magic powers that could grasp the nail perfectly, the main difficulty in pulling a nail out is getting a grip on it, I've never needed to use anything even remotely approaching my full weight to pull a nail.

Pull it out while you're 10 miles away, then, without touching it, continue pulling it til you're in the right area, not pull it from 10 miles away. In a modern city? There would be thousands of reliable anchors, plenty of which (Those along the line of probable killer) would tell you absolutely nothing. Most of which would have been subjected to plenty of stress anyway, from general wear, as well as other Allomancers. There's absolutely no way you could tell that the stress on a metal was caused by one particular incident. The weight of one person wouldn't even warp most kinds of metal, especially not those used in heavy construction since they're designed to withstand the weight of hundreds of people.

No it doesn't, people can make mistaken assumptions but the DNA meant exactly what it said, that that piece of organic matter belongs to that person.

Yes it reveals a line in both directions, that the coinshots and lurchers of the police force can look into both those directions for anchors damaged with their own steel and iron lines. Again that is how ballistics work. I already commented out shooting a nail out of a wall would be difficult given the materials of a modern day scenario, as well as by damaging the wall you leave further evidence to locate the coinshot or lurcher. Anyone in that room of fifty, except the one standing directly opposite the wall that just got tore up and can now be identified by 49 other people in the room. Nails are driven into planks of wood in a wall. If you rip the nail outwards, you shatter the plank of wood, like taking a hammer to it. That will cause the plank to cave in away while the top and bottom of the plank is driven inwards damaging the wall. Which a room full of 49 people will notice. Removing a nail with a hammer is using leverage. Removing a nail using pulls would require an anchor for leverage. Try hammering a 2 inch nail into wood block till half an inch is exposed (so you have something to grab on), then using pliers pull straight out of the block, and tell me you can do that easily with slow and steady pressure with no affect on your body and no need to brace against something. The reason for my example is multiple. First, I used 2 inch, to give you enough space for it to poke out to grab on since you are not an allomancer to grab it by the metal alone. Second, it is 2 inches so it will be in the wood deep enough to re-create a nail actually driven into a structure via a nailgun or hammer as based on how secure those nails are, results in the stability of a building so they better be fixed in there pretty good. Also the lurcher you mentioned is not a crasher, so would not be able to increase their weight to increase the force of the pull. Even if the example included a twin born, by increasing the weight, you would be leaving a clearer footprint on the ground for identification. Regarding your 10 miles example, let me get this straight, you want your hitman to walk 10 miles while pulling a piece of metal like a dog on a leash and expect no one to notice that as odd? The weight of one person wouldn’t warp an anchor, but using an anchor to rip nails or what have you from a wall will. 

 

Now this replies to Voidus’s last comment and natc’s comment. Critics assert that statistical estimates of a match may be skewed by incorrect assumptions about the genetic variation across population. In some population subgroups, individuals may be so genetically similar that a DNA match is more likely to occur when comparing samples drawn from within that subgroup. Other problems may occur in cases where suspects are closely related to one another. Critics also call for a number of other procedures to make DNA testing more accurate. They advocate sample splitting which is a prodcedure by which samples of physical evidence are sent to two forensic laboratories in order to better guard against mistaken matches. They also ask that all DNA laboratories be required to undergo proficiency testing through blind trials. Such trials would have laboratories analyze DNA samples without knowing whether the analysis was being done for an actually investigation or for evaluation purposes only to help eliminate bias. Blind trials would also yield error rates for each laboratory that could be given to a jury to help it weight the significance of the DNA evidence. Blind trials would also provide incentives for laboratories to lower their error rates. Criminal defense lawyers have also called for state funded access to the services of experts who can evaluate the handling and analysis of DNA evidence. These “counter experts” would give the defense a chance to scrutinize DNA evidence more closely. Defense attorneys also assert the need for access to laboratory records and physical samples for retesting. So it is far from perfected and an automatic win for the prosecution. 

[Voidus]

A single quote would probably be too big at this point so I'm going to quote snippets here.
 

 

 

Ok, this is getting into semantics.

Defining the difference between the weapon and the allomancer is not a matter of semantics, it's the difference between needing 50 meters of clear space and needing half a meter of clear space.

 

 

 

the original example was that a coin started from coinshot (gloved so no fingerprints) to then shoot to victim.

That was one of many, many examples that have been given, in that particular example, yes the distance to both the allomancer and the weapon is functionally identical, but in many of the other examples it's not.

 

 

 

and still result in a line. All pushes are straight out and all pulls are straight in. 

Yes, it will result in a line then, not a single person. If you need clear space between the Allomancer and the target then you only have one suspect, the person along that line who is not obstructed. If you only need clear space between the weapon and the target it can then be anyone along that line in either direction.

 

 

 

Also Voidus assumes that a coin can be shot 10 miles away. 

 

Are you familiar with the fallacy of logic called a straw man? I didn't say that, you misunderstood what I originally said and I have since clarified that that's not what I said.

 

 

 

Yes it reveals a line in both directions, that the coinshots and lurchers of the police force can look into both those directions for anchors damaged with their own steel and iron lines.

The anchor doesn't have to come from either direction, it would be impossible to check all possible anchors, there is no way to test that something has been used as an anchor, some anchors are not recoverable and in addition to all of that, even if you found the perfect anchor, you could remove it, you determined (Somehow) that it had been used as an anchor that still proves absolutely nothing, as you mentioned, Allomancers are incredibly common, almost everything that conceivable could be used as an anchor probably has been at some point.

 

 

 

I already commented out shooting a nail out of a wall would be difficult given the materials of a modern day scenario, as well as by damaging the wall you leave further evidence to locate the coinshot or lurcher.

And I already corrected you that it wouldn't, and damaging the wall gives no more information than the wound itself would. All it does is give a straight line.

 

 

 

Anyone in that room of fifty, except the one standing directly opposite the wall that just got tore up and can now be identified by 49 other people in the room.

Are you telling me that if you went into a room of fifty people you would remember not only the appearance of everyone in that room (Despite you having no idea that any tragedy had just happened for a significant stretch of time, let alone that it had anything to do with the people in that room) but also exactly where they stood at every point in time?

 

 

 

Nails are driven into planks of wood in a wall. If you rip the nail outwards, you shatter the plank of wood, like taking a hammer to it.

Not if you're an allomancer you don't, you'd probably crack the plank a bit but that's about it.

 

 

 

Removing a nail with a hammer is using leverage.

It makes it easier but it's by no means necessary. It's just a means of conserving strength, not because you need to brace yourself against it.

 

 

Try hammering a 2 inch nail into wood block till half an inch is exposed (so you have something to grab on), then using pliers pull straight out of the block, and tell me you can do that easily with slow and steady pressure with no affect on your body and no need to brace against something. 

I've done exactly that on numerous occasions. Imagine that nail is suspended from the ceiling. Would you grab onto that nail and assume it will hold your weight?

 

 

 

Regarding your 10 miles example, let me get this straight, you want your hitman to walk 10 miles while pulling a piece of metal like a dog on a leash and expect no one to notice that as odd? 

10 miles is an example but yeah pretty much, you give much thought to every piece of trash you see blowing along the street? Maybe if a particularly observant and allomantically aware person were watching they'd notice it was an Allomancer pulling it along, but would they be able to identify who? Would they even remember it for longer than about 5 minutes? Would they ever think to connect it with a random assasination attempt several miles away?

 

 

 

The weight of one person wouldn’t warp an anchor, but using an anchor to rip nails or what have you from a wall will. 

No it most certainly won't, how much extra strength do you think is needed to pull a nail from a wall? Do you really think it would take more weight than 100 men? I seriously doubt it would even approach needing the weight of 1 but if you really think so then surely you'd think it would be two at the most?

 

 

 

Critics assert that statistical estimates of a match may be skewed by incorrect assumptions about the genetic variation across population.

That's again confusing DNA with the people testing it. DNA is either a match or it isn't, if you test it and it matches someone completely then either that person or their identical twin is the owner.

[Pathfinder]

How do I break up quotes so I may reply to each of your responses as you have done?

[Voidus]

Copy and paste into Quote boxes?
Otherwise Quote a bunch of times but delete all the unrelated content in each quote as you address them.

[Pathfinder]

I am having trouble using the quotes on this site with this work computer so I will space out my responses for reference.

 

It is still a mute point as you still need to arrange where the weapon is in order to line it up with your target and push it away from you. Whether that starts from a coin in your hand, or a nail in the wall, or someone’s pocket change, it causes a trajectory. Since there is a range on steel pushes and iron pulls, and the force of the implement hitting the target can be measured, you can determine a sphere of influence to work within. There was an instance where a little girl died mysteriously in someone’s backyard. Upon investigation they discovered she got hit by a falling bullet. They were able to determine from the caliber, and the arch in with the bullet hit the child’s body the range and curve through the air to work it back to the backyard miles away of some random individual who decided to shoot off their gun in the air, despite the weapon and ammo being unregistered and the bullet itself having no DNA nor fingerprints on it. As this replies to multiple quotes, I will jump to the next.
 

The nature of an anchor is that it is a fixed point to brace yourself against when you do a push or a pull. How could you remove the anchor, and again without being seen? Are you going to drive a stake in the ground, use it as an anchor, kill the person, and then take the time to go back and yank the anchor out of the ground, during which you are somehow not seen by anyone?

 

Damaging the wall is saying in big words that there is a person in this room with you that is a coin shot and just ripped it up. How is this assassin supposed to judge through a wall where his target is, to pick the right nail that when shot out of, will hit the target? He cannot see through the wall, and if you are going on oversleep’s premise that the individual is carrying metal, it is mentioned repeatedly in word that people do not wear metal on them for fear of it being used as a weapon. And even if the target did wear metal, you have to also separate it from anyone else wearing metal.
 

And are you telling me in a room of 50 people, no one, not a single one of the 49 saw something? That is statistically impossible. One person doesn’t have to remember everything, but testimony from 49 people can put together a decent picture of what happened. 

 

This is reaching a point I will bring up at the end of this post.

 

That example is faulty and does not apply to the example of an assassin standing pulling on a nail. By pulling a nail out from above you are using your entire body weight to pull down. The equivalency would be an allomancer using a pull to pull down a nail from overhead. Then you may feel yourself lightly tugged upwards as the nail pops loose. Standing straight up, not leaning whatsoever, extending one arm holding pliers and pulling ur arm straight back from a 2 inch nail driven into a solid block of wood 1 and a half inches deep. That you could not do without leverage, or if you were an allomancer, without an anchor. You disagree which will be confronted at the end of this post

In a crowded city, for 10 miles, you feel only one person is going to notice a piece of metal being periodically yanked through the air, of which magically hits no one along the way. That of all these people in a public place, for 10 miles are not going to note that as odd. I disagree due to the sheer numbers but again, refer to the end of my post.
 

Time and again when Wax does so, he increases his weight to heavier than his original weight (not just heavier than his lightened weight). If a crasher has to increase his weight beyond his normal weight, then why would a lurcher or a coinshot be able to with their natural weight? And when did 100 men come into this? 

 

 

My point that I stated three times now was that DNA is not alone a smoking gun and an automatic win for the prosecution. That it needs additional evidence which is evidence I have been referencing this entire post. You wanted to know how to bring someone into court and prove them guilty of a crime. If a defense attorney can call into question the validity of DNA based on the people running on the tests, and if you read what I wrote the issues with relatives and familial DNA, then the DNA evidence can be seen as faulty. You stated at the beginning of this whole thing and I quote “So how would you catch a Lurcher or Coinshot assassin?”. I have replied in how I thought a lurcher or coinshot could be caught. We have reached an impasse where some fundamental foundations of our arguments we simply do not agree to. For example you state you can remove a nail without leverage, I disagree (this is not meant to be an oversimplification of your argument but merely a shortening for time sake). Baring we putting a nail in a wall and trying to remove it, which would be functionally impossible as we live no where remotely near each other, this will never be resolved. I have reached the point where I feel it is better to agree to disagree. Other posters want to look at this from another angle and with me persisting in my posts, it has taken away from that. So although I still feel the way I do and feel it is valid, and you feel the way you do and feel it is valid, I am going to step away. I am not trying to get the last word, feel free to reply, after all this is the thread you started, just I will not reply. 

[natc]

Copy and paste into Quote boxes?

Otherwise Quote a bunch of times but delete all the unrelated content in each quote as you address them.

I'm sure adding start and end quote tags in the middle of a quote would work. Probably.

[Voidus]

Splitting this up again for clarity's sake.

It is still a mute point as you still need to arrange where the weapon is in order to line it up with your target and push it away from you. Whether that starts from a coin in your hand, or a nail in the wall, or someone’s pocket change, it causes a trajectory. Since there is a range on steel pushes and iron pulls, and the force of the implement hitting the target can be measured, you can determine a sphere of influence to work within. There was an instance where a little girl died mysteriously in someone’s backyard. Upon investigation they discovered she got hit by a falling bullet. They were able to determine from the caliber, and the arch in with the bullet hit the child’s body the range and curve through the air to work it back to the backyard miles away of some random individual who decided to shoot off their gun in the air, despite the weapon and ammo being unregistered and the bullet itself having no DNA nor fingerprints on it. 

It's not a moot point, yes you need to arrange a weapon of some kind, yes that causes a trajectory and yes that can be estimated. But having a line extending in two directions for probably around 100 meters in each direction to be safe is very different from being able to pinpoint the precise place that it must have been.

The amount of force needed to actually kill someone is pretty significant, a bullet shot into the air is not particularly likely to have that amount of force. Additionally tracking a bullets trajectory like that without having precise measurements of wind, temperature, spin, air pressure and so forth would be virtually impossible. Otherwise Snipers would be able to hit their targets consistently at that kind of distance. So count me somewhat dubious on that story. I think it more likely that they tracked it to one of several possible neighborhoods and asked around if anyone heard or saw someone shooting into the air. Something you can't do with an Allomancer because they neither do anything visible nor make noticeable sound.

 

 

The nature of an anchor is that it is a fixed point to brace yourself against when you do a push or a pull. How could you remove the anchor, and again without being seen? Are you going to drive a stake in the ground, use it as an anchor, kill the person, and then take the time to go back and yank the anchor out of the ground, during which you are somehow not seen by anyone?

That's my point? How would the police remove anchors to analyze them? I never suggested the perpetrator would remove the anchor.

 

 

And are you telling me in a room of 50 people, no one, not a single one of the 49 saw something? That is statistically impossible. One person doesn’t have to remember everything, but testimony from 49 people can put together a decent picture of what happened. 

No, all of them will have seen something, most of them will be remembering incorrectly. Some will be able to eliminate certain people as suspects (ie. they were conversing near the entrance when the assassination happened and so were no where near the middle of the room)
But other than that? You're not going to get much useful information. Plus at least one of those people giving information is probably the assassin, you don't know who and so don't know what information is or isn't correct.
You could perhaps narrow your list of 50 people down to 40, maybe even as low as 25 if it was a particularly segregated area that the assassin fired from. You will not get anywhere close to 1 suspect though.
 

 

That example is faulty and does not apply to the example of an assassin standing pulling on a nail. By pulling a nail out from above you are using your entire body weight to pull down. The equivalency would be an allomancer using a pull to pull down a nail from overhead. Then you may feel yourself lightly tugged upwards as the nail pops loose. Standing straight up, not leaning whatsoever, extending one arm holding pliers and pulling ur arm straight back from a 2 inch nail driven into a solid block of wood 1 and a half inches deep. That you could not do without leverage, or if you were an allomancer, without an anchor. You disagree which will be confronted at the end of this post

Yes it does, that's exactly what Allomancy does, pit your weight against that of the object you are pulling, in fact since Allomantic force is enough to counter gravity it would be as though several versions of you were hanging off that nail. Now if you needed all of that force it would obviously put you off balance as well but then a nail hardly needs anywhere close to your full weight. Even if you did need your full weight (Which again is highly unlikely) there is still no reason to believe that:
1) Your anchor could ever be found
2) Your anchor would be in any way noticeably altered
3) That that anchor would in any way point to your position, if it's on the line of trajectory (The most sensible place for an anchor to be) all it will do is confirm that you were somewhere on that line.

Which is not even getting into the possibility of using something other than an anchor to brace yourself. A table, a column, a wall, another person? Plenty of ways around it.

 

 

In a crowded city, for 10 miles, you feel only one person is going to notice a piece of metal being periodically yanked through the air, of which magically hits no one along the way. That of all these people in a public place, for 10 miles are not going to note that as odd. I disagree due to the sheer numbers but again, refer to the end of my post.

 

Time and again when Wax does so, he increases his weight to heavier than his original weight (not just heavier than his lightened weight). If a crasher has to increase his weight beyond his normal weight, then why would a lurcher or a coinshot be able to with their natural weight? And when did 100 men come into this? 

Put a nail on a piece of string, then go for a short walk and notice how many times you need to yank it into the air, most of the time you need a very slight nudge if anything. So do you think people would notice a nail rolling along the ground?

Wax does so because he can mostly, but it'd be by no means necessary simply for a nail.

 

 

My point that I stated three times now was that DNA is not alone a smoking gun and an automatic win for the prosecution. That it needs additional evidence which is evidence I have been referencing this entire post. You wanted to know how to bring someone into court and prove them guilty of a crime. If a defense attorney can call into question the validity of DNA based on the people running on the tests, and if you read what I wrote the issues with relatives and familial DNA, then the DNA evidence can be seen as faulty. You stated at the beginning of this whole thing and I quote “So how would you catch a Lurcher or Coinshot assassin?”. I have replied in how I thought a lurcher or coinshot could be caught. We have reached an impasse where some fundamental foundations of our arguments we simply do not agree to. For example you state you can remove a nail without leverage, I disagree (this is not meant to be an oversimplification of your argument but merely a shortening for time sake). Baring we putting a nail in a wall and trying to remove it, which would be functionally impossible as we live no where remotely near each other, this will never be resolved. I have reached the point where I feel it is better to agree to disagree. Other posters want to look at this from another angle and with me persisting in my posts, it has taken away from that. So although I still feel the way I do and feel it is valid, and you feel the way you do and feel it is valid, I am going to step away. I am not trying to get the last word, feel free to reply, after all this is the thread you started, just I will not reply. 

It's a pretty big win if you have any other evidence, if the prosecution argues based on inaccuracy of tests the simple solution is to do more time-consuming but also more-accurate tests. Again you're latching onto one idea, I still think a nail would work but if it didn't it's not difficult to use something else. Wait til they're around food and use a knife, use someones earring, move something from somewhere else, using a nail is by no means necessary.

[Moogle]

Probably unreasonable, but maybe something to take into account if you're a police officer investigating a murder:

 

A lot of this assumes there's a direct line to/from you and your target, since you need to Push from your center of weight. But if you had two Allomancers Pushing on a coin, they could manage more extreme angles. For example, they could theoretically Push a coin at any angle less than 90 degrees to their sides.

 

This depends on how Allomantic friction works, but it seems not unreasonable to accomplish.

[Voidus]

Probably unreasonable, but maybe something to take into account if you're a police officer investigating a murder:

 

A lot of this assumes there's a direct line to/from you and your target, since you need to Push from your center of weight. But if you had two Allomancers Pushing on a coin, they could manage more extreme angles. For example, they could theoretically Push a coin at any angle less than 90 degrees to their sides.

 

This depends on how Allomantic friction works, but it seems not unreasonable to accomplish.

It'd be very difficult to co-ordinate but I imagine there'd be a few very practiced hitmen who trained for it who might be able to pull it off. Ad a third person in an elevated or lowered position (Higher floor, hiding in sewers, etc.) and you could get even more angles, essentially you'd get an area that looked something like a p-orbital.

[king of nowhere]

Sorry for not reading every single post so far, maybe someone mentioned it already and I missed it, but:

maybe you can use tin metalborns as a sort of lie detector? Having a seeker in the very place of the crime - one actively burning and in a good enough position to spot the assassin - is an unlikely coincidence, but trained people could use tin supersenses to detect the small clues that someone is lying. Get a team of them (say, half a dozen) and if they all agree the suspect is lying, then it's probably good enough for a jury. You don't need a specific twinborn combination, any tineye or tin ferring will do, so it would be feasible.

 

Still convicting someone of allomantic murder would not be easy, but if you have a registry of allomancers and you can identify those in the scene of crime and interrogate them that way, it may be worth something. It is even possible scadrian society will not require the same level of proof that we require exactly because it would be near impossible to achieve.

[Oversleep]

Again, even polygraph can be fooled (no hard evidence here, since it's something I read somewhere and I am too lazy to go on searching spree) and polygraph would be way more accurate than another person, even Tin Metalborn.

I'd like to finally kill the anchor argument:

• metal is too hard to be affected by a simple Push equivalent to shooting a coin or a nail or something like that
• even if it would, simply increasing the number of the anchors would be sufficient
• to balance shooting a coin you simply can walk in that direction and Push mid-step simultaneuosly increasing the force which you use to walk on the foot in the back (If what I wrote is unreadable, please say so, English is not native to me, I will rephrase it)

[DeadFencer]

So basically the solution to allomancy is more allomancy

[Stormgate he/him]

So basically the solution to allomancy is more allomancy

Isn't it always? The main reason Kelsier and the crew managed to succeed was because they had Allomancy.

[Dahak he/him]

DNA definitely can't lie.

Whether there can be multiple matches to the surviving portion of the sample or whether the guy is actually guilty is a different matter. But it can't BS you, it must match the person in actuality.

 

Also chimerism can give false negatives and there is the possibility of cross contamination in the lab.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Also chimerism can give false negatives and there is the possibility of cross contamination in the lab.

Let's assume everyone involved in the investigation is competent and that there are no rare mutations or medical anomalies.

Those can happen (rarely), but don't invalidate the concept of dna evidence in general.

[Weltall]

"How would you catch an allomantic assassin?"

 

Aluminum-laced flypaper? I'll see myself out...

 

Okay, humor aside this is a cool topic so I have some thoughts. First, freuchemical chromium. We don't really know how it works yet but I have to imagine that if you have an investigator with that skillset, store enough luck and they'll eventually blunder into the solution to the case by accident, a la Nobby and Colon in Discworld. Doubly so if you can compound luck. Spotting the tiny bits of evidence you might have missed, making a brilliant leap of logic that turns out to be correct, that sort of thing.

 

Other than that, yeah, maybe a bronze Savant or a mechanical application of it could be used to sense some sort of unique signature, if such a thing is possible.

 

I wonder how the laws would handle the use of Rioters/Soothers in interrogations. Did it come up in Shadows of Self? Because we know that with a powerful enough allomancer, it becomes very hard to knowingly tell them a lie, as with Vin and the Lord Ruler. Once you get a suspect in a position where you could ask questions, that might come into play.

 

And less a hypothetical for our universe but one from an in-universe perspective... worldhop to Roshar, find a Skybreaker and ask them to do whatever it is that lets them sense guilt? True, we'll be well past the point in the story where we're going to see a Mistborn serial killer by the time that's really an option but I could see that kind of cooperation in the future of the Cosmere.

 

Darn, all of this makes me want Third Era Mistborn even more than I already do. Marasi, if you don't want your powers I'll gladly take them so I can get the books faster. Please?

Edited January 18, 2016 by Weltall