Pregnancy in the cosmere

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

A topic about babies beeing born in the cognitive realm lead me to think more about how magic would affect pregnant women and their unborn little wonders.

Does iron/gold feruchemy affect the child?

Can babies recieve breath before birth?

Do the basic emotins unborn babies have attract spren?

What would happen to the baby when the mother would be taken by the shaod after the reod.?(I think it would die )

Im curious what you think about them.

[Kynedath]

I don't think that that unborn children would be able to receive breath mostly because of the physical restrictions. The donor would not be able to touch the child unless they were the mother, and even then, the breath would not have a way to reach the infant. Also, I don't know if it would work because of the acoustic restrictions. I am not entirely sure if the recipient has to hear the words or if they just have to be spoken, but if it is the former, then they couldn't hear you.

 

As for the rest, I don't know and I am frankly too tired to think about it.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Kynedath

[Haradion Drogon]

I imagine early on in the Pregnancy, before the unborn child is fully developed, the child's "Identity" would be entangled with the parents. As the child matures, their identities would become distinct, and their would become affected differently.

However, an argument as to when this occurs would likely be as complex as defining when a foetus is considered a distinct human.

 

You will note that on earth, many considered a foetus a complete distinct individual at the moment of conception - and few the immature of the foetus as no different to the age of a child. A Baby, Toddler, and Child are distinct individuals regardless of their age, and many cultures and societies take the same view, regarding a foetus as a natural extension of this.

Others will see the foetus as an offshoot of the mother until a certain point is reached.

This debate is - you will not fail to notice - critical to debates on abortion, embryonic experimentation and certain forms of IVF that involve the destruction of embryos.



Just as this results in different ideals on earth, I propose that this would mean that, on different planets in the Cosmere, embryos and foetuses are affected in different ways depending on how their culture - and themselves view them.

Observe, how Kaladin's Scars remain in place despite his healing, because of how he views himself and how the world views him. They have become a part of his identity.

I suppose that a similar effect would affect the foetus. In a culture where a foetus us regarded as distinct, such forms of investiture might be less likley to affect both parent and child as the same individual.

This would of course, also be subject to change, as perspective shifts with new medical and philosophical thinking develops.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

I imagine early on in the Pregnancy, before the unborn child is fully developed, the child's "Identity" would be entangled with the parents. As the child matures, their identities would become distinct, and their would become affected differently.

However, an argument as to when this occurs would likely be as complex as defining when a foetus is considered a distinct human.

 

You will note that on earth, many considered a foetus a complete distinct individual at the moment of conception - and few the immature of the foetus as no different to the age of a child. A Baby, Toddler, and Child are distinct individuals regardless of their age, and many cultures and societies take the same view, regarding a foetus as a natural extension of this.

Others will see the foetus as an offshoot of the mother until a certain point is reached.

This debate is - you will not fail to notice - critical to debates on abortion, embryonic experimentation and certain forms of IVF that involve the destruction of embryos.

Just as this results in different ideals on earth, I propose that this would mean that, on different planets in the Cosmere, embryos and foetuses are affected in different ways depending on how their culture - and themselves view them.

Observe, how Kaladin's Scars remain in place despite his healing, because of how he views himself and how the world views him. They have become a part of his identity.

I suppose that a similar effect would affect the foetus. In a culture where a foetus us regarded as distinct, such forms of investiture might be less likley to affect both parent and child as the same individual.

This would of course, also be subject to change, as perspective shifts with new medical and philosophical thinking develops.

Wow. I like the complexity and uncertainty it adds to the equation.

But , if I may, play devils advocate. It could just happen(the bestowing of Identity by the Spiritual realm((?) to whatever species once they become self aware. Identity is strongly linked to how one views ones self. Not nearly as complex or cool as your theory, but its and idea, I suppose.

But then theres Stick. That little bugger had Identity, and he really wanted to stay a stick. Would that count as being self aware?

[Kynedath]

I imagine early on in the Pregnancy, before the unborn child is fully developed, the child's "Identity" would be entangled with the parents. As the child matures, their identities would become distinct, and their would become affected differently.

However, an argument as to when this occurs would likely be as complex as defining when a foetus is considered a distinct human.

 

You will note that on earth, many considered a foetus a complete distinct individual at the moment of conception - and few the immature of the foetus as no different to the age of a child. A Baby, Toddler, and Child are distinct individuals regardless of their age, and many cultures and societies take the same view, regarding a foetus as a natural extension of this.

Others will see the foetus as an offshoot of the mother until a certain point is reached.

This debate is - you will not fail to notice - critical to debates on abortion, embryonic experimentation and certain forms of IVF that involve the destruction of embryos.

Just as this results in different ideals on earth, I propose that this would mean that, on different planets in the Cosmere, embryos and foetuses are affected in different ways depending on how their culture - and themselves view them.

Observe, how Kaladin's Scars remain in place despite his healing, because of how he views himself and how the world views him. They have become a part of his identity.

I suppose that a similar effect would affect the foetus. In a culture where a foetus us regarded as distinct, such forms of investiture might be less likley to affect both parent and child as the same individual.

This would of course, also be subject to change, as perspective shifts with new medical and philosophical thinking develops.

Ummm . . . I applaud you vernacular good sir. While you do make very good points, I find it unlikely that social identities would effect investiture to the extent that you are implying. Also, while I do accept that personal identity can have an effect on the effects of investiture, a foetus does not have the cognitive functions to form such an individual identity. I find it unlikely (but definitely not impossible) that the developing foetus would be considered an individual by such investiture as found in Sanderson's works.

[king of nowhere]

I don't think that that unborn children would be able to receive breath mostly because of the physical restrictions. The donor would not be able to touch the child unless they were the mother,

I beg to disagree

(the spoiler contains an image of a fetus hand reaching out to the surgeon during a surgical interventionon the uterus. While most people find it beautiful, it contains a lot of blood, and I figured someone may not want to see it, hence the spoiler.)

 

Now I may never be able to look at something like that without thinking "my life to yours, my breath becomes yours". In fact, it may actually work as a form of neonatal surgery: the fetus is ill? give it plenty of breath, so it will get better. get it back once the child grows enough to talk. The uusefulness is unfortunately limited because it requires a lot of trust among the people involved.

 

Aside from that nitpick, I have no idea about any of the original questions, although I think haradion makes good points.

[Kynedath]

Alright, I will concede on that. We are talking about the special cases and not the average. I will admit that I didn't think about the surgical possibilities. Those change this entire thread. Again, sorry for not being able to talk about the rest of your questions, but I have read Warbreaker the most recently and I don't quite remember the finer details of the other systems.

[Pathfinder]

So just to be clear this has nothing to do with my stance on abortion and such. Regarding the identity of the fetus purely in Sanderson's fantasy world, I thought an object's identity was also predicated on how OTHERS viewed the object? Which is why the stick said it was a stick, the boat the boat, and the chair a chair. It was viewed as a whole object, instead of its component parts, so it eventually took on the identity of the whole. So couldn't that theoretically happen in reverse? That although the fetus does not have any cognitive functions, the fact that the parents, family and friends of the parents view the fetus as a growing person, and name that growing person, then it could gain an identity that way? Which would also open up another whole host of questions. Such as if the parents knew the woman was pregnant, and happy about the information, so started planning (preparing a room, picking a name, buying baby clothes) would that fetus gain an identity, versus a situation where the mother either did not know she was pregnant or was hoping she was not. And thus by viewing the fetus at that stage as a part of her body, then it does not form its own separate identity till whatever the woman's ultimate decision results in. 

[Kynedath]

So just to be clear this has nothing to do with my stance on abortion and such. Regarding the identity of the fetus purely in Sanderson's fantasy world, I thought an object's identity was also predicated on how OTHERS viewed the object? Which is why the stick said it was a stick, the boat the boat, and the chair a chair. It was viewed as a whole object, instead of its component parts, so it eventually took on the identity of the whole. So couldn't that theoretically happen in reverse? That although the fetus does not have any cognitive functions, the fact that the parents, family and friends of the parents view the fetus as a growing person, and name that growing person, then it could gain an identity that way? Which would also open up another whole host of questions. Such as if the parents knew the woman was pregnant, and happy about the information, so started planning (preparing a room, picking a name, buying baby clothes) would that fetus gain an identity, versus a situation where the mother either did not know she was pregnant or was hoping she was not. And thus by viewing the fetus at that stage as a part of her body, then it does not form its own separate identity till whatever the woman's ultimate decision results in. 

Again, that's going back to social identity. Magic doesn't have the time to find out what everyone thinks of one person. All that it can do is find out what that person thinks about themselves. Going back to the stick boat and chair, they knew what they were, but they didn't have the cognitive ability to assert it. In The reason that they could say what they were was because Shadesmar translated their identity into a language that humans can understand.

 

However, this is just my reasoning and is probably wrong, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Stormgate he/him]

Basically, it depends on whether or not the fetus is alive enough to view itself as something more than what other people view it as. I'm not equipped to answer this question, and it can be argued that nobody really knows how sentient a fetus is. The idea that unborn fetuses can potentially have a Spiritweb is doubtful.

On the other hand, I have an idea for how Forgery could be used to maybe save a fetus. If the umbilical cord strangles it (which sadly does happen) or if the baby won't turn upside down, perhaps Forgery could change it so that happened. I'm not sure if it would work, but it could save lives.

[Haradion Drogon]

I don't know if it is "Soely" about what the Feotus considers itself.
After all, how does a Stick consider itself a Stick?

It doesn't. It isn't sentient. It simply views itself as others view it.

What about a Person who is rendered unconscious - or brain dead?

It seems to me that both an individual's personal identity, and how it is viewed by others would both be taken into account by cosmeric forces which govern identity and investiture.

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

As we know from vin's case, babies can snap before/during birth. Therefore it has to have the identety required for getting invested.

The interesting thing here is. Babies have a different sDNA the

Than the mother but they kind of share a body.

But it would be useful to humanity if an investet woman could use her abilities to protect her child.

Stormlight spoilers

I have a theory that when transforming to mateform, the now fertile listener (woman??) Bonds actually two spren. At birth her body releases one for her child to take up to give it it's first form.

Assuming the listeners don't lay eggs or something.

Because we honestly don't know that for shure :-)

[Stormgate he/him]

I personally think that there was no reason why Shallan couldn't Soulcast Stick except she wasn't good enough. Stick viewed itself as a stick. I think you're right about the identity part.

[Pathfinder]

As we know from vin's case, babies can snap before/during birth. Therefore it has to have the identety required for getting invested.

Right but the debate seems primarily at the fetus stage, where it is less clear about its sense of self and or identity (and I am happy and want to thank everyone that we are all being careful discussing this, as this could very quickly become a problematic fight about abortion.)

 

edit: and I concur with those that state identity is both self and societal driven. It is mentioned in stormlight as well as in the emperor's soul that objects gained an identity as something due to how people viewed it over time. I feel that would just as easily apply to a fetus. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Oversleep]

With that Identity thing going on... In Cosmere, "becoming the mask" trope is in full effect because of Cognitive Aspect, right?
What if somebody made an illusion that apple is orange and everybody would always think about it "that's orange". How would Cognitive Aspect of that apple be affected?

[Pathfinder]

With that Identity thing going on... In Cosmere, "becoming the mask" trope is in full effect because of Cognitive Aspect, right?

What if somebody made an illusion that apple is orange and everybody would always think about it "that's orange". How would Cognitive Aspect of that apple be affected?

Well is that illusion able to be manifested 24/7? Will the illusion of an orange rot if left on the table exposed to air? When bit into will it taste like an orange?

[Oversleep]

Okay, maybe something less subjective to the passage of time. Place an illusion on diamond to make it appear like ruby.

[Alfa he/him]

I guess a foetus has to go throw a developement in all three realms.

 

 

The Physical Realm is relatively easy - interactions on physical level are relatively easy to understand

Since the Spiritual Realm is a place of ultimate truth, the phoetus will be there always the same, regardless of culture and everything else. But here we are confronted with the problem of how the spiritual aspect shifts over time of the pregnancy - and I bet it shifts. The spiritweb basics already stand, but around it, something will happen.

Where it starts to get more complicated is the Cognitive aspect. The Cognitive Realm is very interesting: It is based on how somebody or something sees himself AND how other see him, her or it. Here probably the cultural aspect will take place.

 

My theory is, that different magic systems will interact with phoeti depending how their aspects are distributed over the Three Realms (to learn more about it see Chaos's theory about the Aspects of Magic Systems); AonDor, for example has a strong Cognitive aspect; Surgebinding is relatively Spiritual, while Allomancy is very Physical-based: going from this, the interactions with unborn children may be explained better.

[Pathfinder]

Okay, maybe something less subjective to the passage of time. Place an illusion on diamond to make it appear like ruby.

Well that is already subjective as the value given a gem is what we prescribe it. Diamonds are numerous yet thanks to Debeers campaign, they are a "girls best friend" and all but expected for a engagement ring. 

[Oversleep]

Well that is already subjective as the value given a gem is what we prescribe it. Diamonds are numerous yet thanks to Debeers campaign, they are a "girls best friend" and all but expected for a engagement ring. 

But we're discussing how the Cognitive aspect of such diamond would be affected, not its value or anything...

[Quiver he/him]

I am torn between wanting to ask this kind of question to Brandon, and worrying that asking him to weigh in on it would be the equivalent of asking his stance on abortion and be a MAJOR social faux pas...

Considering the various real-world analagies here...yeah, I don't see this being answered any time soon.

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

Well, brandon still writes fantasy. I think we all agree thqt the realmantic theory doesn't apply in real life.

So whatever Sanderson may say about this topic doesn't influence us.

As long as the question is more relatet to how it interacts with magic than when it has it's own identity or at wich point it is a human there shouldn't be a problem.

Maybe a human gets access to magic as soon as it has its own blood flow.

We know from hemalurgy that blood is important in the spiritual aspect.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Shaukan-son-Hasweth

[Pathfinder]

But we're discussing how the Cognitive aspect of such diamond would be affected, not its value or anything...

but its value does come into play with how it views itself and it would probably say "i am a diamond with an illusion of a ruby on me". You could still cut a ruby easier than a diamond, so it would not stand up to tests. An Illusion is still an illusion. it could not function in all ways as a diamond does enough to last extended scrutiny and time it would take to change its cognitive aspect. 

[Oversleep]

but its value does come into play with how it views itself and it would probably say "i am a diamond with an illusion of a ruby on me". You could still cut a ruby easier than a diamond, so it would not stand up to tests. An Illusion is still an illusion. it could not function in all ways as a diamond does enough to last extended scrutiny and time it would take to change its cognitive aspect. 

I don't mean simulating Physical Aspect. I just wonder how the Cognitive Aspect of the diamond would change over time if everybody thought that's a ruby. Cognitive Aspect is shaped both by how the object sees itself AND how others see it.

[Pathfinder]

I don't mean simulating Physical Aspect. I just wonder how the Cognitive Aspect of the diamond would change over time if everybody thought that's a ruby. Cognitive Aspect is shaped both by how the object sees itself AND how others see it.

And I am not disagreeing with you that it is both. Just we are discussing a situation where the object involved might not have a self to see itself to begin with. This gets into which comes first the chicken or the egg? A tree is seen as a tree and thinks itself as a tree. It sprouts a bud. The bud becomes a flower. That flower is fertilized and becomes a nut. That nut falls to the ground and grows into a sprout. That sprout grows into a tree and whole process starts again. At what point in the process does that bud stop thinking of itself as part of the tree as a whole, and instead thinks of itself as a separate entity? We have names for individual parts of things, but until they are seen as separate, and used as separate over a period of time, it is my interpretation of what I have learned in Emperor's Soul, Stormlight and on this board, that the object does not gain a separate identity/sense of self. 

 

edit: Another example. A leaf. On a tree it would be part of a tree and when "spoken to" would say "i am a tree". Yet when it falls off in fall, it would say "i am a leaf". Just like the stick used to be a branch. 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Pathfinder