Is Jasnah's Ability to Soulcast not a secret?

[Meg]

I apologize in advance for being terse at the moment (I'm mostly occupied by other things unfortunately).

Reading another topic (more: skimming it, I lack of concentration) it stuck me that I had never realized that Taravangian seemed to have known about Jasnah's abilities. And it's not important whether she Soulcasts herself or with the help of a fabrial, she just Soulcasts.

When I read those chapters, it just came to me as a fact that he would ask Jasnah for her being the only one who could Soulcast in Kharbranth. But on the other side I got the impression that Jasnah's Soulcasting ability is hidden very well. She's not an ardent, worse, she's a heretic.

So: Why did Taravangian know about this? Where did he get his information? Does he really have such a spy network? I'd love to read the conversation when Taravangian asked Jasnah for help. Jasnah must have been in Kharbranth when the accident with Taravangian's granddaughter occured. Or did she offer her help. We know that she was "paid" with getting access to the Kharabanthian library.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I apologize in advance for being terse at the moment (I'm mostly occupied by other things unfortunately).

Reading another topic (more: skimming it, I lack of concentration) it stuck me that I had never realized that Taravangian seemed to have known about Jasnah's abilities. And it's not important whether she Soulcasts herself or with the help of a fabrial, she just Soulcasts.

When I read those chapters, it just came to me as a fact that he would ask Jasnah for her being the only one who could Soulcast in Kharbranth. But on the other side I got the impression that Jasnah's Soulcasting ability is hidden very well. She's not an ardent, worse, she's a heretic.

So: Why did Taravangian know about this? Where did he get his information? Does he really have such a spy network? I'd love to read the conversation when Taravangian asked Jasnah for help. Jasnah must have been in Kharbranth when the accident with Taravangian's granddaughter occured. Or did she offer her help. We know that she was "paid" with getting access to the Kharabanthian library.

Her possession of the "fabrial" is fairly well-known, and, given the nature of the emergency, the closest Soulcaster was what they asked for, heretic and princess or not. I mean, it's well known enough for Shallan to have tracked her down across several kingdoms just to steal the thing - and, given that Soulcasting without a fabrial acts more or less exactly like that with one, it's a convenient disguise that lets her Soulcast whenever she feels like it, as long as she always wears the fabrial.

[Cayden]

Its very well known because it is a scandal, she is a heretic in possession of something which traditionally only Ardents are allowed to use. Its something which everyone who follows the Vorin faith will likely know and frown upon.

[Crysanja]

keep in mind shes the sister of a king, messing alot with her could cause war or other huge problems =)

 

wasnt there something like only the kings ardents are allowed to use soulcasters in the aleti kingdom?

[Meg]

I mean, it's well known enough for Shallan to have tracked her down across several kingdoms just to steal the thing - and, given that Soulcasting without a fabrial acts more or less exactly like that with one, it's a convenient disguise that lets her Soulcast whenever she feels like it, as long as she always wears the fabrial.

This!

I've totally forgotten about Shallan looking for her because of the Soulcaster. My bad.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

keep in mind shes the sister of a king, messing alot with her could cause war or other huge problems =)

 

wasnt there something like only the kings ardents are allowed to use soulcasters in the aleti kingdom?

 

Yes, there was: that's why it's such a huge scandal that Jasnah, a heretic, possesses one. No one knows where she got it, but it is fairly common knowledge that she has one. The ardentia are not happy about this. If you look, it is implied that they have made numerous attempts to reacquire it from her by asking nicely, offering enormous amounts of wealth in trade, or simply trying to stealing it. Remember when Jasnah finds that Shallan has been talking to an ardent? Her first reaction is to ask whether Kabsal has asked Shallan to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster yet.

 

As it turns out, It was fairly easy for her to get her hands on a Soulcaster; all she needed was a few gems, some metal, and a reliably discreet craftsman. This is her actual secret, which I believe is the source of your confusion. It's true that no one knows that she is a Surgebinder; that she can Soulcast without a fabrial. The fake Soulcaster was a part of this deception, allowing her to use her powers in public without revealing their actual source.

 

Now, that said, it's entirely possible that Taravangian, with his epic-scale conniving and scheming, is, in fact, completely aware of the truth. He clearly has at least some understanding of Surgebinding, as Szeth's Windrunner-esque abilities do not catch him off guard.

[Moogle]

As it turns out, It was fairly easy for her to get her hands on a Soulcaster; all she needed was a few gems, some metal, and a reliably discreet craftsman.

 

Or she Soulcasted it herself. I suspect she's cautious enough to do that, rather than trust anyone with her secret.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Or she Soulcasted it herself. I suspect she's cautious enough to do that, rather than trust anyone with her secret.

 

Assuming that's possible. It seems like there are some as-yet-unknown limitations on Soulcasting, as it was only capable of producing barracks in a certain shape.

[Auri Garvel Xel'iathi he/him]

She could always have just asked her mum.

[Cromptj he/him]

I think the barracks were a certain design because it minimises the amount of soul casting needed. Presumably, if they wanted, they could build an entire building out of wood and then soulcast each board into stone or metal or glass.

[Crysanja]

i guess there is a huge control difference between a soulcaster(fabrical) and real soulcaster.

 

the mind is just a much better tool, then a few stones on a fabrical.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

As you all know, her soulcaster is fake. She could have gone to several jewelry makers to have the parts commissioned, and then put the thing together herself. It didn't need to be perfect because it's fake.

 

Now does anyone know that she has the ability to soulcast without a fabrial. I doubt it. I think the only person on Roshar that knows that it Shallan

 

Still, the fact that Jasnah can soulcast is well known. That was the main focus of Shallan's story in book one. Everyone is just assuming Jasnah found a rare artifact but didn't give it to the proper authorities.

Edited January 19, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Moogle]

Assuming that's possible. It seems like there are some as-yet-unknown limitations on Soulcasting, as it was only capable of producing barracks in a certain shape.

 

Keep in mind that those are fabrials being used for barracks, which should be much more limited than actual Soulcasting. I highly suspect that being able to create more complicated shapes and things (like specially flavored food) is very similar to the limitations of Awakening - that is, it needs to be very specifically visualized and understood.

 

That said, a Soulcaster is incredibly simple in shape as well as small. It's a few chains and some metal sockets for gemstones. I would guess that basically any Soulcaster should be capable of creating it from air. The fact that all barracks are a similar shape speaks of another quirk of Soulcasting - there's a 'form' or blueprint for barracks, and Soulcasting follows it to create the exact same shape of barracks each time. I would guess that the Soulcaster Jasnah has is the exact same as most Soulcasters are, because she would have used and linked up to the Cognitive conceptions of Soulcasters that everyone shares. If she did Soulcast it, anyways, which I think she would have. Her Order's divine attributes include being careful/cautious. I don't think any jeweler could be trusted to create a fake Soulcaster for you, particularly if rumors start of the person being able to actually Soulcast things shortly after.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Bramble Thorn]

As you all know, her soulcaster is fake. She could have gone to several jewelry makers to have the parts commissioned, and then put the thing together herself. It didn't need to be perfect because it's fake.

 

This would be a bad idea. The ability to make Soulcaster fabrials is currently thought to be lost. Shallan was able to compare her fathers and Jasnah's soulcasters at the same time, and found them identical to visual inspection. So any craftswoman making such parts would have been given enough information that it would be reasonable to assume they might deduce it was parts for a fabrial. Also, her mother is a Artifibrian. So if craftswomen are being hired to make soulcaster parts in secret, and then the a prominent member if the Kholin household turns up with a undocumented Soulcaster that works, people might get the wrong idea. An idea worse that Jasnah being outed as a surgebinder.

 

A found soulcaster in the possession of the Kings sister is not worth the diplomatic hassle, let alone a war. Evidence implying that the Kholin house has rediscovered the secret of soulcasters, and is keeping it a secret for themselves, That is worth going to war over, from everyone who wants that power for themselves. Think of how essential soulcasters are in the current campaign.against the parshendi.

 

I think she either soulcast it herself from a description and/or illustration she researched, or brought her mother into the conspiracy.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Keep in mind that those are fabrials being used for barracks, which should be much more limited than actual Soulcasting. I highly suspect that being able to create more complicated shapes and things (like specially flavored food) is very similar to the limitations of Awakening - that is, it needs to be very specifically visualized and understood.

That said, a Soulcaster is incredibly simple in shape as well as small. It's a few chains and some metal sockets for gemstones. I would guess that basically any Soulcaster should be capable of creating it from air. The fact that all barracks are a similar shape speaks of another quirk of Soulcasting - there's a 'form' or blueprint for barracks, and Soulcasting follows it to create the exact same shape of barracks each time. I would guess that the Soulcaster Jasnah has is the exact same as most Soulcasters are, because she would have used and linked up to the Cognitive conceptions of Soulcasters that everyone shares. If she did Soulcast it, anyways, which I think she would have. Her Order's divine attributes include being careful/cautious. I don't think any jeweler could be trusted to create a fake Soulcaster for you, particularly if rumors start of the person being able to actually Soulcast things shortly after.

"Your service is appriciated. I trust you will be... Discrete about this?"

"Why of cooouuurse, Brightness" (insincere smile)

"I apologize for this, I'm truly sorry. Your wife will be compensated."

"Wait, wha-?"

*Poof*

"I do so hate getting the scent of smoke out of my clothes."

[+eveorjoy she/her]

This would be a bad idea. The ability to make Soulcaster fabrials is currently thought to be lost. Shallan was able to compare her fathers and Jasnah's soulcasters at the same time, and found them identical to visual inspection. So any craftswoman making such parts would have been given enough information that it would be reasonable to assume they might deduce it was parts for a fabrial. Also, her mother is a Artifibrian. So if craftswomen are being hired to make soulcaster parts in secret, and then the a prominent member if the Kholin household turns up with a undocumented Soulcaster that works, people might get the wrong idea. An idea worse that Jasnah being outed as a surgebinder.

 

A found soulcaster in the possession of the Kings sister is not worth the diplomatic hassle, let alone a war. Evidence implying that the Kholin house has rediscovered the secret of soulcasters, and is keeping it a secret for themselves, That is worth going to war over, from everyone who wants that power for themselves. Think of how essential soulcasters are in the current campaign.against the parshendi.

 

I think she either soulcast it herself from a description and/or illustration she researched, or brought her mother into the conspiracy.

 

I think a gold chain from a craftwoman in one city and a frame from a goldsmith in another city would not lead anyone to believe Jasnah was making a soulcaster, especially because the skill to make them was lost. It just bugs me that people assume soulcasting means you can make things out of thin air. I don't think that is how it works. Something is made from something. May she whittled wood into the proper shape and soulcast it. That would be consistent with the text.

 

If it is never clearly stated in text where Jasnah got the fake, we might have to ask Brandon.

[Moogle]

Something is made from something. May she whittled wood into the proper shape and soulcast it. That would be consistent with the text.

 

Air (zephyr) is one of the Ten Essences. You're turning air into something else (metal). No whittling needed! Shallan even remarks that it's possible:

 

 

Jasnah really did have a functioning Soulcaster. And a powerful one too. Nine out of ten Soulcasters were capable of a few limited transformations: creating water or grain from stone; forming bland, single-roomed rock buildings out of air or cloth.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Air (zephyr) is one of the Ten Essences. You're turning air into something else (metal). No whittling needed! Shallan even remarks that it's possible:

 

Okay, but could she shape the soulcaster into the correct shape from thin air? A room is a box, easy to imagine. I have doubts that a soulcaster would be as simple. If she can then I hope this is explained in WoR or a later book.

[Moogle]

Okay, but could she shape the soulcaster into the correct shape from thin air? A room is a box, easy to imagine. I have doubts that a soulcaster would be as simple. If she can then I hope this is explained in WoR or a later book.

 

I, too, hope that it's expanded. Soulcasting fascinates me. Originally I found the concept stupid (bribing the spirits of objects with Stormlight?) but the entire process has really started to intrigue me more thanks to some WoR material.

 

Soulcasters really aren't that complicated, though, and they're popular enough in people's mind's that I imagine there's some sort of readily available form for them out in the Cognitive realm, if that's how it even works.

 

There's also the fact that fabrials will naturally be more limited than true Soulcasting, so I would hesitate to say the limitation of single-box rooms for normal Soulcasters is what Jasnah is limited to.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Moogle

[11thorderknight]

Okay, but could she shape the soulcaster into the correct shape from thin air? A room is a box, easy to imagine. I have doubts that a soulcaster would be as simple. If she can then I hope this is explained in WoR or a later book.

 

Remember: in the hospital rooms scene with Kabsal, Jasnah tries to Soulcast strawberry jam - a processed mush made from an exotic fruit she may very well have never tasted. Of course, it didn't work. But she thought that there was enough of a chance for it to work that she still tried it. The point is that her innate Soulcasting is obviously much less constrained than what the ardents are capable of using fabrials. 

 

As for making things out of thin air....I've often wondered about this. We know that the relative value of gemstones is based on their utility in Soulcasting, which is why emeralds are most valuable (to make food). However, sapphires are the next-most valuable, and they can be used to turn things into....air? I guess that could be useful to get rid of stuff you don't want, except whenever we see soulcasting used for that, things are transformed into smoke rather than air. So here's my theory - sapphires are useful/valuable, not in order to turn things into air, but in order to make things out of air. Remember, the density/mass of objects aren't affected by soulcasting, which is why turning a boulder into smoke created a big burst of pressure - this would likely have been must worse/stronger if the boulder had been changed into air rather than smoke, since pure air is much less dense. Anyway.....what if sapphires are necessary to concentrate air into sufficient density to make useful objects. It would be a two-step process: step 1, use sapphire to concentrate air into the shape of a building, or chair, or whatever.....step 2, use another gemstone to transform that air into whatever you actually want. That would certainly make sapphires valuable.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

You have a point about the jam. If she did make the soulcaster out of air, I still hope it is explained how. Much of what people assume Jasnah can do is still speculation. Brandon tends to always make his magic more costly than a mere waving of the hands and what you wish for appears. What was the cost to make that soulcaster? How long did it take her to learn how to make it? And, most importantly, how did she practice and hide her powers without it?