Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) When I was reading WoR there was one decision of Dalinar that I found seriously ODD. He appointed Amaram as the head of the Knights Radiant, despite having zero Radiant abilities. I mean, Dalinar even had these visions where he had seen first hand what KR means and what abilities you have to have in order to be one. I mean, this is a joke! He knew, Amaram was only a normal person and how is a normal person be the head of the order of the KR. This decision seems so completely nonsensical. And has Dalinar, when it became clear to him that he has to refound the order, never looked out for people, who repeatedly succeed at stuff when normally the odds should be against them? Did he really never investigate into how bridge four held that bridge and Kaladin was able to rescue him? When Kaladin admitted, he had killed a shardbearer? When some irrational gut feeling tells him to trust Kaladin, despite knowing nothing about his past? He never considered it possible and investigated, instead even appointed a non radiant? Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 He didn't know that the true Radiants had begun reforming. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I assume you mean Dalinar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Oops, fixed that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLerasNosed he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 My timeline might be off a little, but isn't Dalinar running his "Sting" on Amaram while also appointing him head of the New KR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) He didn't know that the true Radiants had begun reforming. Doesn't matter, appointing a random human doesn't make him Radiant and he knows that, because he has seen the true Radiants in his visions. It s like giving me the nobel prize for physics and then expecting me to be a physicist or handing me a diploma in medicine and then expecting me to operate on someone's appendix. Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Dalinar thought that the Radiants were gone and would not be reforming as they had been, so he decided to make do with what he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Dalinar thought that the Radiants were gone and would not be reforming as they had been, so he decided to make do with what he had.exactly this. As far as dalinar knew at the time, amaram was the best paragon of virtue around. dalinar was ordered to refound the radiants by the visions, so he did the best he could. yes, it would make no sense otherwise.To keep with the analogy, it's like some visions you have good reasons to trust tell you to form a team of people with supernatural powers, which you never believed even existed in the first place; you have no idea how to find such people, or even if they exist in the first place, so you apppoint someone who is lucky at cards. yeah, it doesn't make that much sense, but what else can you do? Edited January 5, 2016 by king of nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Mmh, he thought that there wouldn't be any new true Radiants and he had to try to turn the shardbearers of Roshar into some sort of surrogate KRs. Do the books mention if he believed (or didn't believe) that the true KRs could be back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLerasNosed he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Mmh, he thought that there wouldn't be any new true Radiants and he had to try to turn the shardbearers of Roshar into some sort of surrogate KRs. Do the books mention if he believed (or didn't believe) that the true KRs could be back? I think he believes, or rather. might hope the KR might come back. Cause he asks Kal if he's (Kal) the one he's (Dal) been looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) I think he believes, or rather. might hope the KR might come back. Cause he asks Kal if he's (Kal) the one he's (Dal) been looking for But that's almost at the end of book two. If he had suspected this, or considered it possible, he could have investigated and found evidence. He could have confronted him much earlier. Like "how exactly did you save us at the Tower, how is it that we are not dead when the assassin attacked us, how did you figh in that arena fight, unarmoured and without a shardblade. Son, what you are doing is suspicious. What is going on with you?" Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I'm still trying to figure out how nobody realized that Kaladin was a radiant. First, the Szeth fight. Kaladin through himself out of the window, and the other characters (definitely Adolin, possibly others) noticed that his sleeve was cut off. And second, HE SENT A FULL SHARDBEARER RUNNING OUT OF THE ARENA!!!! Seriously, how did that NOT raise any red flags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I'm still trying to figure out how nobody realized that Kaladin was a radiant. First, the Szeth fight. Kaladin through himself out of the window, and the other characters (definitely Adolin, possibly others) noticed that his sleeve was cut off. And second, HE SENT A FULL SHARDBEARER RUNNING OUT OF THE ARENA!!!! Seriously, how did that NOT raise any red flags? Exactly what I was wondering. Okay, the Nightwatcher could also be behind this, or some other supernatural force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Exactly what I was wondering. Okay, the Nightwatcher could also be behind this, or some other supernatural force. If there was a serious possibility one of my most trusted soldiers had been blessed by the Nightwatcher with the power to make shardbearers run away traumatized, I'd investigate it. Edited January 5, 2016 by DreamEternal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Maybe is just because a Darkeyes is quite unseen in the Alethi society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Maybe is just because a Darkeyes is quite unseen in the Alethi society. You mean, the unseen darkeyes newcomer-brigdeman-slave that has saved Dalinar Kholin and his army and has just been made Captain of the highprinces personal guard? He must have been the gossip of all the warcamps, along with Dalinar's fits during highstorms. Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaidenbo he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I think what I can guess as to why no one realized Kal is a radiant simply because the radiants have been gone and their powers "dead" for most of their history. In Szeth's very first chapter he noted that no one would recognize his powers and would be confused by him because the powers he has was "dead" for centuries or whatever it was. So I guess it'd just be hard for them to think that these powers are back from forever ago and this random bridgeman has these powers. It'd kind of be like if someone in our world randomly possessed anicent Greek-like powers and ended up being a Greek god from ancient times. Thinking they are an ancient greek god wouldn't come first to mind I don't think. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) I'm still trying to figure out how nobody realized that Kaladin was a radiant. First, the Szeth fight. Kaladin through himself out of the window, and the other characters (definitely Adolin, possibly others) noticed that his sleeve was cut off. And second, HE SENT A FULL SHARDBEARER RUNNING OUT OF THE ARENA!!!! Seriously, how did that NOT raise any red flags? ok, let's assume you are general of an army. one of your soldiers survive impossible odds three times. What do you think? 1) that guy is really good, and also very lucky. 2) that guy has supernatural powers. Well, if you are reaing a book about a guy having supernatural powers, you know that guy has those powers, and it makes sense. If you are one person in that world, you instead know that supernatural powers do not exist. If you are a general, you also command thousands of soldiers, hundreds of whom are very good. One of them could also be very lucky. So, from an in-world perspective, answer 1) is the most likely, and answer 1) is the one that will turn out to be correct. People applying story conventions to the real world is the reason we have all those conspiracy theories. Want an actual example? During world war 2, many thousand pilots dropped out of their plane without a parachute for a number of reasons. A few dozen of them survived, one of them without significant injury. What do you think? those guys are mutant who can secretly fly? Or they just got lucky falling over something soft enough to cushion the fall? EDIT: here, kaidembo said more or less the same thing, and probably better than I did Edited January 5, 2016 by king of nowhere 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Why did Dalinar chose Amaram of all people to lead the new Radiants? Because he was looking for someone more honorable than honor itself and such was Amaram's reputation. Why did Dalinar still choose Amaram after Kaladin made his accusations? Because his investigation led him to 17 people disapproving Kaladin's words. Not one, not two, but seventeen. He couldn't find one person to confirm Kaladin's words: he was thus left to believe Kaladin was extracting unjust vengeance on Amaram from wrongs done to him. He warns him he wouldn't tolerate this kind of behavior forever, but he has no reason at that point in time to think Amaram is anything less but honorable. Why didn't Kaladin's words carry on more weight when Dalinar had enough instinct to trust him early on? Dalinar's instincts are battle oriented: Kaladin performed a feat on the battle ground. It makes him worthy in Dalinar's eyes. He does not need more than that to promote a man, military speaking. He was willing to give him a chance, his 1000 men and see what he could do. Had he not delivered, I suspect he would have been out of there within the blink of an eye. Why didn't Dalinar questioned Kaladin's actions at the Tower? Because he is Dalinar, he does not question feats on the battlefield: he has seen many men be more than they were. He does not think he has reason to doubt Kaladin. Adolin doubts. Adolin questions, but Dalinar never listens to Adolin and thinks his son is resentful for being ordered around. Why doesn't Dalinar question Kaladin after the fight with Szeth? Because he saw nothing. Kaladin did better than Adolin, but that's only because Szeth saw Adolin as the greatest thread and he disarms him right away. He doesn't bother with Kaladin until later.The only one who saw something was Adolin, but he was half-unconscious. He didn't trust his recollection of events so he didn't share his thoughts or perhaps he did, but Dalinar ignore them as he always does. Why doesn't nobody questions Kaladin after the 4 on 1 duel? Because they weren't watching HIM, they were watching Adolin. All they saw was a man with a spear who cracked already weakened Plate parts. In a time where TV and replay don't exist, people only tend to focus on one aspect while being blind to the others. It is obvious all eyes were on Adolin and none were on Kaladin. All in all, there is nothing surprising with Dalinar's behavior. He is guilty of being too trustful and not observant enough, but to be fair even if he had, there is not much more he would have gathered. Adolin truly is the only one who had enough information to piece it out, but Dalinar has made a point to dismiss his eldest son more often than not. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaidenbo he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Amaran also had what he thought the qualitys of the radiants were which were honor and such too. Little did he know... Edited January 5, 2016 by Kaidenbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) I think what I can guess as to why no one realized Kal is a radiant simply because the radiants have been gone and their powers "dead" for most of their history. In Szeth's very first chapter he noted that no one would recognize his powers and would be confused by him because the powers he has was "dead" for centuries or whatever it was. So I guess it'd just be hard for them to think that these powers are back from forever ago and this random bridgeman has these powers. It'd kind of be like if someone in our world randomly possessed anicent Greek-like powers and ended up being a Greek god from ancient times. Thinking they are an ancient greek god wouldn't come first to mind I don't think. For the normal people, true. But not Dalinar with his visions. And there is still real, powerful magic in this world, people seek out the Nightwatcher and the boons he grants are real. There is soulcasting. In the middle ages in Europe people believed in the return of Christ. In a society like that supernatural forces are seen as very much a reality. And on Roshar exist all kinds of sects that believe in odd "supernatural" stuff. Jasnah seems to be the only person immune to supernatural superstitions and ideas. Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 My timeline might be off a little, but isn't Dalinar running his "Sting" on Amaram while also appointing him head of the New KR? Hard to say, the book isn't entirely clear if Dalinar actually believed that Amaram was clear but changed his mind after the duel or if he was just pretending (The interlude in which Dalinar decides to use the Shardblade for his ploy is much earlier in the book than the prision scene after the duel but nothing actually proves that it is in cronological order, apart from all other interludes being.) and Dalinar himself handeled giving information to Kaladin (and with that the reader) rather poorly no matter what is actually the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 The books seems to indicate Amaram's refusal to defend his sons during the 4 on 1 duel caused him to doubt his previous investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 From the way the book lays it out Dalinar didn't begin his sting operation until after Kaladin asked him why Amaram didn't go to help Adolin in the duel if he was so honorable. I think at that point Dalinar started wondering if there was some truth to what Kaladin was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer he/him Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 The books seems to indicate Amaram's refusal to defend his sons during the 4 on 1 duel caused him to doubt his previous investigation. That's why I said it's hard to say. It's kind of implied this changed Dalinar's mind, yet that doesn't explain why the Interlude is so strongly out of order, after all there are interludes right in front of the segment in which Kaladin gets put into prision, which would have fit much better into the order, the Lift interlude for example could easily have switched places with it. On a more minor note, given that he decided to use the Shardblade immediately in the interlude, the timing would also have been rather convenient. I guess another option is that he wanted to keep the posibility open but didn't deem it necessary right at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts