theory Roshar's Focus

[Oversleep]

Honor was surprised by the spren being able to grant Surgebinding, which speaks strongly against the idea of Honorblades being "artificial" spren. Not to mention that Soulcasting and the other types of fabrials that the Radiants made exist as well. The spren were said to have actively copied the Honorblades - I would say they are the hack, if anything, and unlikely to be the focus of Roshar as a result.

 

Honor's remark, for reference (WoR):

“I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren— wishing to imitate what I had given men— who made it possible.

 Well, lerasium is similar hack of Allomancy - Mistborns didn't arose in natural way. I'd say Leras would also had been surprised by arrival of Mistborns. It seems Honor did something akin to giving out lerasium to the first Allomancers - he gave them part of his power. But spren were natural way of granting Surgebinding and once they caught on they can bond with humans, they did. It's complicated if focus is a sentient being.

 

On your last point: we have a WoB suggesting that no, coming to Roshar doesn't matter, bond mechanics works everywhere:

Q: Is [the Nahel/Seon] bond relatively common or is what seons, spren, and night blood do little more rare among splinters. I'm specifically talking about the act of making bonds not a giving of magic powers really, that appearing to be function of Roshar. Also regarding your post about storm light 3 I am personally ok with 2000 pages if need be so make the chapters as long as you want.

A: The bonding is basically the same mechanic, regardless of the world, just with different flavoring. Roshar isn't the only place where the bond gives powers; it's a matter of what's stuffed into the soul, and how.

(source)

The way I see it is that Roshar is one of the places that having a bond gives powers. No. Let's me put it another way. Having a bond is part of Surgebinding - fabrials and forms of Listeners require spren, but not necessarily a bond with spren.

 

Here's the one you're referring to for reference:

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

(source)

Note that Surgebinding works off-world, which we wouldn't expect if it was Roshar itself granting special powers to people with bonds.

You're wrong. Allomancy works off Scadrial and it still requires Scadrial's focus.

The Elantrian bonded to a Seon coming to Roshar would hack into existing mechanic of Nahel Bond. That Seon bond would be enough to fool the system to give the Elantrian access to some sort of Surgebinding. (It's like Shard Investing on Scadrial gets godmetal and Shard Investing on Roshar gets his spren [like Odium gets voidspren]).

Note that people merged with Splinters have some sort of shapeshifting (Returned, Listeners). It's not exactly the same, but similar.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Oversleep

[Moogle]

You're wrong. Allomancy works off Scadrial and it still requires Scadrial's focus.

The Elantrian bonded to a Seon coming to Roshar would hack into existing mechanic of Nahel Bond. That Seon bond would be enough to fool the system to give the Elantrian access to some sort of Surgebinding. (It's like Shard Investing on Scadrial gets godmetal and Shard Investing on Roshar gets his spren [like Odium gets voidspren]).

Note that people merged with Splinters have some sort of shapeshifting (Returned, Listeners). It's not exactly the same, but similar.

 

To be clear, I am arguing that moving to Roshar should not do anything for someone with a Seon bond because moving away from Roshar does not stop a Radiant from Surgebinding. The presence of Roshar does not matter.

 

I do not understand your analogy with regards to Invested on Scadrial. The equivalent in that case would be Devotion Investing on Roshar and having spren arise from that. This is not what happens when a Seon comes to Roshar. Seons do not Invest Roshar just by arriving on its soil.

 

A Seon has an Aon at its core, the focus of Sel, not Roshar! That should be more than clear enough that there's no Rosharan focus involved.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Yata]

Note that Surgebinding works off-world, which we wouldn't expect if it was Roshar itself granting special powers to people with bonds.

But we don't know if Surgebinding off-world works in the same way or if it is something like "as a Seon may actuallizate his Aon, A Radiant Spren may actualizzate his Surge".

[Moogle]

But we don't know if Surgebinding off-world works in the same way or if it is something like "as a Seon may actuallizate his Aon, A Radiant Spren may actualizzate his Surge".

 

Here's the WoB, for reference (not agreeing or disagreeing with you):

 

Q: You've previously mentioned that someone bonded to a Seon would get some benefits if they went to Roshar , basically that it would be treated sort of like a Nahel bond. This implies to me that something about Roshar likes to give powers from bonds. (Hi there, Honor...)

Should this be taken to mean that spren-bond based Surgebinding won't work off-world, as it's a benefit Roshar gives from having a bond? Or would it be more specific, and mean that some of the passive benefits Radiants get (visions, Windrunner squire strengths) would be lost, but Surgebinding retained?

Mainly I'm interested in whether or not we can reach maximum Jasnah levels and have the possibility of her appearing in non-SA books. I don't think she'd be much into worldhopping if she couldn't get back with the Travel Surge...

A: Surgebinding will work off-world.

(source)

[Oversleep]

To be clear, I am arguing that moving to Roshar should not do anything for someone with a Seon bond because moving away from Roshar does not stop a Radiant from Surgebinding. The presence of Roshar does not matter.

I do not understand your analogy with regards to Invested on Scadrial. The equivalent in that case would be Devotion Investing on Roshar and having spren arise from that. This is not what happens when a Seon comes to Roshar. Seons do not Invest Roshar just by arriving on its soil.

A Seon has an Aon at its core, the focus of Sel, not Roshar! That should be more than clear enough that there's no Rosharan focus involved.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I meant it more like hacking into the system - Zahel feeds himself with Stormlight just fine. To be a Surgebinder you need to bond a Splinter and that will allow you to draw in Stormlight and use the Surges. Having a bond with Splinter of another Shard may allow you to hack into the system - it won't work the same way, but it will work.

... Wait, how did Zahel manage to draw in Stormlight? The answer to that question would be very helpful.

 

I have something against gemstones being Roshar's focus - only recently Listeners have discovered that they can use them to trap spren. Before that, changing form was about exposing yourself to highstorm, having correct attitude in hopes of attracting the spren you wanted. Stormlight and spren, nothing else.

There's also another thing: When Dominion and Devotion were Splintered, their power just kind of flooded Cognitive Realm and only a part of it became Seons and Skaze. There's also o WoB out there that implies if it wasn't for Kelsier to hold Preservation between Leras final death and Vin's Ascension something similar could have happened.

Also on Scadrial power of Shards condensed into metal nuggets (and Shardpools and mists. Hm. Why the mists?)

But on Roshar, all of Honor's power just turned into spren.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Oversleep

[Moogle]

I have something against gemstones being Roshar's focus - only recently Listeners have discovered that they can use them to trap spren. Before that, changing form was about exposing yourself to highstorm, having correct attitude in hopes of attracting the spren you wanted. Stormlight and spren, nothing else.

 

Even if Roshar's focus were gemstones, you don't need the planet's focus to perform magic. Just because gemstones' magical properties are a recent discovery does not mean Roshar's focus is not gemstones. Will can substitute for a focus. And of course, Splinters like the spren should have the planet's focus at their core, like Seons have Aons at their core, so the fact that listeners bond spren tells us nothing about the planet's focus. WoB:

 

QUESTION

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

(source)

QUESTION

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

(source)

[Lilamal]

Personally, I think that Roshar's focus is gemstones. They are used in favelas, they store Investure, and not all types of gemstones hold Stormlight(hmm... Just like how some metals aren't allomantic. Similar, wouldn't you say?), and Spren can be bonded to them.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Lilamal

[Oversleep]

Even if Roshar's focus were gemstones, you don't need the planet's focus to perform magic.

So far we've only seen two people who performed magic without focus - Vin directly burning mists and Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy. Both are extremely special cases. Even Tenth Heightening still requires Command (mental, sure, but it's said it's dificult).

Just because gemstones' magical properties are a recent discovery does not mean Roshar's focus is not gemstones. Will can substitute for a focus. And of course, Splinters like the spren should have the planet's focus at their core, like Seons have Aons at their core, so the fact that listeners bond spren tells us nothing about the planet's focus.

Well, the idea is that Splinter of Honor assumed the form of the focus - in this case, spren. All the magic on Roshar can be performed without gemstones (apart from fabrials, but that's obvious). Just walk into the highstorm.

If magic doesn't really require certain element to work, it's highly unlikely that this element is the focus. All magic on Roshar require spren and Stormlight, and seeing as there are different types of spren who do different things and one type of Stormlight (really, paralells with Breaths and Command are just waiting to be drawn here!) I am almost sure that spren are the focus.

[Moogle]

So far we've only seen two people who performed magic without focus - Vin directly burning mists and Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy. Both are extremely special cases. Even Tenth Heightening still requires Command (mental, sure, but it's said it's dificult).

 

The upper Heightenings are not well-studied. I would be very surprised if the Tenth Heightening needed a "Command" if it was entirely mental.

 

All magic on Roshar require spren and Stormlight, and seeing as there are different types of spren who do different things and one type of Stormlight (really, paralells with Breaths and Command are just waiting to be drawn here!)

 

Sure, most magic seems to use spren, but you're not really justifying to me here why spren are different from Seons, who have a focus at their core. Seons, Splinters, walk around with a nice shiny Aon at their center. Nightblood has a Command (a focus) at his core. Why should spren be any different? If Syl is in fact carrying a focus at her core (cough cough Gravity and Pressure?), then it would make sense for her to be providing the focus to Kaladin without Roshar's focus being spren.

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We'll see what future Roshar magic looks like, I guess. I'm suspicious that Voidbinding's "ten levels" will not require spren.

[Oversleep]

The upper Heightenings are not well-studied. I would be very surprised if the Tenth Heightening needed a "Command" if it was entirely mental.

 

Vasher shrugged. “The Tenth Heightening allows a man to Command mentally, without speaking, but it can take months of training to learn how to do that—even if you have someone to teach you. ”

Sure, most magic seems to use spren, but you're not really justifying to me here why spren are different from Seons, who have a focus at their core. Seons, Splinters, walk around with a nice shiny Aon at their center. Nightblood has a Command (a focus) at his core. Why should spren be any different? If Syl is in fact carrying a focus at her core (cough cough Gravity and Pressure?), then it would make sense for her to be providing the focus to Kaladin without Roshar's focus being spren.

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We'll see what future Roshar magic looks like, I guess. I'm suspicious that Voidbinding's "ten levels" will not require spren.

I'm totally OK with spren carrying around two Surges as focus. It's consistent with my theory about spren being focus.

On the side note, chunks of Preservation's and Ruin's power condensed as the world's focus - as nuggets of metal which could be used in Metallic Arts. If my theory is true, Honor's power assumed the Roshar's focus as spren or (if it's the Surges) assumed the form of beings who carry focus.

[Moogle]

On the side note, chunks of Preservation's and Ruin's power condensed as the world's focus - as nuggets of metal which could be used in Metallic Arts. If my theory is true, Honor's power assumed the Roshar's focus as spren or (if it's the Surges) assumed the form of beings who carry focus.

 

The equivalent on Roshar for that is gemhearts.

[Oversleep]

It's the same process (leak from the spiritual) but nobody said that gems are Splinters of Honor.

...

I'll think of a way to word it better, since right now it doesn't make sense. BTW, I think I don't have anything more to add about Roshar's Focus but this: the bonding part to me seems very similar to how Awakening requires Endowing. So Surgebinding is of Honor, because it requires Bonds and Oaths.

[Ari]

But my main point was that the Stormlight isn't H&C investiture, but natural Adonalsium's Investiture   

 

We don't actually have any evidence for that, do we? I mean, it's not impossible, but it's all empty speculation at this point. And it would be very interesting that Honour's cognitive shadow could affect them so much if he wasn't already heavily Invested in the highstorms.

 

The equivalent on Roshar for that is gemhearts.

 

Shouldn't investiture only be leaking as a solid/liquid at the relevant Perpendicularity? In which case, we'd expect to see all the greatshells up in Horneater territory, or perhaps in Shin if we're talking Cultivation. I'm not sure I buy gemhearts as the relevant leak, I'm pretty sure we just have traditional Shardpools in play, filled with liquid Investiture.

 

That said, I don't agree with Oversleep either- the leak from the Cognitive and Spiritual for using large amounts of Investiture on a planet does not have to be manifest as the planetary focus. (Hell, good luck with that for Endowment- her focus are Commands) For example on Nalthis, Endowment's leak appears to be flowers, used to make the best dyes, which plays in to colours being a catalyst for Investing objects on Nalthis.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ari

[Moogle]

Shouldn't investiture only be leaking as a solid/liquid at the relevant Perpendicularity? In which case, we'd expect to see all the greatshells up in Horneater territory, or perhaps in Shin if we're talking Cultivation. I'm not sure I buy gemhearts as the relevant leak, I'm pretty sure we just have traditional Shardpools in play, filled with liquid Investiture.

 

It's Spiritual humidity:

 

Q. Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the physical realm? About the different states of matter, what determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I’ve read the relevant sections carefully, haven’t noticed much about temperature difference.

A. The idea for me working on this is that they transcend, they permeate everything. They permeate all life on all the realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it’s kind of like they appear there in the various states. When you say that you’ve got the gas, you’ve got the liquid, you’ve got the solid: but you’ve also got inside of you, inside of that plant, like they’re everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it’s just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distils, just like water. There’s some water in the air, there’s some that freezes: that’s temperature. But it’s not always temperature whether it’s in the air, or whether it’s falling. Imagine a spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what’s happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that’s what you get.

Q. Because you’ve talked about alloying the god metals, I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.

A. If you could distil the god metal: you could distil it out of the mist, that’s theoretically possible.

(source)

[Ari]

Yeah, I understand the Investiture Cycle is effectively a thing that happens as a result of a Shard being heavily Invested in a planet, and it functions a bit like humidity. But doesn't the recycled investiture show up at a Shard's perpendicularity? (somewhat like water running downhill towards lakes or in rivers in the water cycle, the perpendicularity seems to act as the place where investiture goes when it's used up all its potential energy)

[Oversleep]

That said, I don't agree with Oversleep either- the leak from the Cognitive and Spiritual for using large amounts of Investiture on a planet does not have to be manifest as the planetary focus. (Hell, good luck with that for Endowment- her focus are Commands) For example on Nalthis, Endowment's leak appears to be flowers, used to make the best dyes, which plays in to colours being a catalyst for Investing objects on Nalthis.

You're right. You're so right. How could I overlook this? Of course, it only means it's not mandatory for Investiture to assume the form of focus, but it's still possible.

Anyway, how do I see magic:

Investiture -> focus -> effect

The magic user actively uses the focus: draws a shape, burns/taps or stores/stabs with metal, gives the Command.

Investiture is on one side of the room, it flows through the focus and produces effect. Of course, sometimes a mind must tell specifically what to do: what to Steelpush; which memory to retrieve; that you want not only stab this guy with a spike but also steal his power; a Command needs mental image (or something like this, cannot recall).

So then I take a look on Roshar and what do I see?

Radiant inhales himself with Stormlight. That's Investiture.

Radiant Binds a Surge. That's effect.

Focus is somewhere in between. There is mind to guide it (like with Steelpushing), but there is no sensation of choosing one Surge or another (like is with metals). So what's left, since it isn't Stormlight, Surge nor mind? The spren.

Similar analyse can be done with other forms of magic.

That was my train of thought; that is why I think spren are Roshar's focus (and a couple of different things, but let's leave it at that).

[Ari]

You're right. You're so right. How could I overlook this? Of course, it only means it's not mandatory for Investiture to assume the form of focus, but it's still possible.

Anyway, how do I see magic:

Investiture -> focus -> effect

The magic user actively uses the focus: draws a shape, burns/taps or stores/stabs with metal, gives the Command.

Investiture is on one side of the room, it flows through the focus and produces effect. Of course, sometimes a mind must tell specifically what to do: what to Steelpush; which memory to retrieve; that you want not only stab this guy with a spike but also steal his power; a Command needs mental image (or something like this, cannot recall).

So then I take a look on Roshar and what do I see?

Radiant inhales himself with Stormlight. That's Investiture.

Radiant Binds a Surge. That's effect.

Focus is somewhere in between. There is mind to guide it (like with Steelpushing), but there is no sensation of choosing one Surge or another (like is with metals). So what's left, since it isn't Stormlight, Surge nor mind? The spren.

Similar analyse can be done with other forms of magic.

That was my train of thought; that is why I think spren are Roshar's focus (and a couple of different things, but let's leave it at that).

 

I'm definitely down to Spren, Oaths, or Gems as the focus for Roshar. lol. The argument against Oaths is that Fabrials don't seem to need them, the argument against Spren that none of the other foci work that way, and the argument against gems is that Radiants only seem to need them to store Stormlight. I'm sure we'll RAFO more and Brandon will poke holes in one of these three theories. I just can't make up my mind anymore on which it is, even though back a few months ago I would have been screaming that it was gems.

 

There's also another relevant element- what I'm currently calling the Manfestation of investiture, which is reflected in the cognitive realm of each planet. (I've also heard it called the Essence, but I dislike that terminology) On Scadrial, it's as Mist. On Roshar, it's some weird mixture of storms and glass/crystal/gems. On Nalthis, it's as colours. It seems like the leakage can happen in any number of forms, so long as that form is either solid or liquid. Nalthis leaks its manifestation. Scadrial leaks its focus for one Shard. Aona's cognitive shadow on Sel leaks liquid investiture the same way Preservation does, and who else other than Brandon knows what that signifies?. The only thing that we've seen be consistent about these leakages is that we've never confirmed that the perpendicularity is anywhere but where the leakage occurs.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Sure, most magic seems to use spren, but you're not really justifying to me here why spren are different from Seons, who have a focus at their core. Seons, Splinters, walk around with a nice shiny Aon at their center. Nightblood has a Command (a focus) at his core. Why should spren be any different? If Syl is in fact carrying a focus at her core (cough cough Gravity and Pressure?), then it would make sense for her to be providing the focus to Kaladin without Roshar's focus being spren.

 

One major difference between spren and Seons is that spren already existed before the destruction of honor.

Seons were uniquely created by the splintering of Devotion (as far as we know: IIRC there was some talk in Elantris of the possibility of creating new Seons).

 

Nightblood is not a splinter, and therefore irrelevant as a comparison IMO.

If you wanted to reference the Divine Breaths as the splinters on Nalthis, I guess it could be argued that the mission a deceased person assigns him or herself when becoming a Returned is the Command at their core. (It seems logical, actually, but I feel there's a paradox in there somehow, though I can't quite put my finger on it.)

 

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We'll see what future Roshar magic looks like, I guess. I'm suspicious that Voidbinding's "ten levels" will not require spren.

 

The fact remains however, that in all the magics (and magic science) we've yet seen in SA, the involvement of spren is the only consistent factor. Though if your Voidbinding suspicions pan out, I fear everyone will have to look for an option that hasn't been brought up yet.

[Yata]

We don't actually have any evidence for that, do we? I mean, it's not impossible, but it's all empty speculation at this point. And it would be very interesting that Honour's cognitive shadow could affect them so much if he wasn't already heavily Invested in the highstorms.

Yes, it was a speculation of mine, I didn't say it was sure.

Just a little point, in my model the Stormfather is the outcome of an Adonalsium's Spren (Rider of the Storm) merging with Tanavast's Cognitive-Shadow.

If this is the case, Rider of the Storm (and the Stormfather) is very compatible with Stormlight (as both is quite Adonalsium-power).

[Moogle]

One major difference between spren and Seons is that spren already existed before the destruction of honor.

Seons were uniquely created by the splintering of Devotion (as far as we know: IIRC there was some talk in Elantris of the possibility of creating new Seons).

 

I don't see what this has to do with anything. More spren were created by the Splitering of Honor, so they seem to be working on the same mechanics to me. The difference, such as it is, seems to be that something about Roshar allows the process to happen with free-floating power. (If I may be speculative: the highstorms seems to break down the barriers between Realms, which might allow the Spiritual and Cognitive to interact properly and allow the Investiture of Roshar to become sentient more often than on Sel.)

 

Nightblood is not a splinter, and therefore irrelevant as a comparison IMO.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Nightblood is like a robot spren. As far as I'm concerned, he's close enough for all intents and purposes to be considered a Splinter.

 

The fact remains however, that in all the magics (and magic science) we've yet seen in SA, the involvement of spren is the only consistent factor. Though if your Voidbinding suspicions pan out, I fear everyone will have to look for an option that hasn't been brought up yet.

 

Except for Honorblades, the original way to use the system which spren just hacked. Except for old-style fabrials (Soulcasters, Shardblade guards, the Oathgate keyholes, Regrowth fabrials, Shardplate), which to our knowledge are not made of spren. (Though I'm very partial to the idea that they are made of spren, it's certainly not confirmed.) Except for the Heralds, who likely have abilities of their own not related to Surgebinding by WoB.

 

Just so I'm clear on the Honorblades thing: I consider that strong evidence in and of itself that the focus of Roshar can't be spren. I don't think Harmony could create an object which grants Allomancy/Feruchemy that wasn't made of metal ala Surgebinding fabrials, and I don't think Honor could have created similar things without involving the planet's focus.

 

But this is fine. It gives me something to be excited about for the next SA book. Maybe we'll learn how the Honorblades actually work from the Shin.

[Oversleep]

Here I am again. Just when I think I have nothing more to add. Sigh.

Okay, in today's Oversleep's rant about focuses we will talk about subdivisions of magic! *applause* Well, let's discuss subdivisions of focuses. And what it determines. Let's start with:

 

Sel: the focus is shape (probably tied to geographic location. Or not. I don't know, honestly). One magic with many subdivisions:

• Aons - the user is an Elantrian
• Seals - the user is a Forger (haven't read Emperor's Soul, don't kill me if I got soemthing wrong please)
• Body movements - the user of ChayShan
• Some others I don't know about

Nalthis: no subdivisions.
Scadrial: three systems with further subdivisions.

- Allomancy: the type of metal determines the power the Misting has. Mistborns have all of them.

- Feruchemy: the type of metal determines the power the Ferring has. Full Feruchemists have all of them.

- Hemalurgy: the type of metal determines the power the Hemalurgist can steal. Also, bind points come into play, what's interesting.

Roshar:

- Surgebinding: the type of spren determines the power Surgebinder has.

• honorspren - the Surgebinder is a Windrunner and has control over Gravity and Adhesion
• liespren - the Surgebinder is a Lightweaver and controls Illumination and Transformation
• I don't remember more spren

- Voidbinding: the voidspren determines the type Voidbringer has.

• stormspren - the Voidbringer is in Stormform and it controlls wind (???) and lightining (???). I'm guessing here.

- Listener's forms require different spren

- Fabrials require different spren

 

You all see where I'm getting with these, so I won't state the obvious thing for me to say.

THE END OF "SPREN ARE ROSHAR'S FOCUS"

THE REST OF THE POST:

Now, what's interesting is that the only magic system without subfocuses is Awakening. Sure, there are different Commands, but they work more in way like "there are different Aons". I wonder what would be another magic system using Commands (more Shards on Nalthis or not Endowment).

Sure, Mistborn use all of these metals, but they're still just users of all the subdivisions. Like they're superMisting. (If I start talking about classes and inheriting and superclasses and interfaces, just shoot me.)
Another new terms (apart from "subfocus"): Discrete Magic™ and Continuous Magic™.

Discrete Magic™ is any magic with subdivisions (and subfocuses, of course): Sel, Scadrial, Roshar.
Continuous Magic™ is any magic without subdivisions: Nalthis.

 

Now, what does it mean? I forgot where I was getting with this.

Another thing worth a note: on Scadrial, all the metals in different systems where the same (that's why Compounding is possible). But on Roshar, there are different spren for different systems (Radiantspren and Voidspren). But on the other hand, all Surge- and Void- Binding gives access to the same ten Surges but in different ways (there is a WoB about this). I wonder what would happen if you attracted both a Radiantspren and Voidspren which give access to the same Surges. Maybe this is a way to mix the magics and achieve some sort of Rosharan Compounding.

[Confused]

"We murder to dissect."

- The Tables Turned, William Wordsworth

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Except for Honorblades, the original way to use the system which spren just hacked. Except for old-style fabrials (Soulcasters, Shardblade guards, the Oathgate keyholes, Regrowth fabrials, Shardplate), which to our knowledge are not made of spren. (Though I'm very partial to the idea that they are made of spren, it's certainly not confirmed.) Except for the Heralds, who likely have abilities of their own not related to Surgebinding by WoB.

 

Just so I'm clear on the Honorblades thing: I consider that strong evidence in and of itself that the focus of Roshar can't be spren. I don't think Harmony could create an object which grants Allomancy/Feruchemy that wasn't made of metal ala Surgebinding fabrials, and I don't think Honor could have created similar things without involving the planet's focus.

 

But this is fine. It gives me something to be excited about for the next SA book. Maybe we'll learn how the Honorblades actually work from the Shin.

 

Honorblades grant access to surgebinding, true enough, but not any other magic system (voidinding, old magic). What I look for in a focus is something that is present in every system. That does not mean it has to be the only way into the system.

 

Oathgate keyholes are part of a larger entity - the Oathgates - which contain big fabrial-style gems that could easily contain spren.

You admit that Shardplate could very well be made out of spren, so why not the other items on your list (apart from Honorblades)?

 

Harmony does create something that grants allomancy while not being a metal: the Mists, IMO the Honorblades are something similar.

Just because they were the first way the system was used, does not mean that it is the 'natural' way. To me, the (likely) shardic involvement in the (creation of the) Honorblades makes them the more likely candidate to be the hack.

[Moogle]

Honorblades grant access to surgebinding, true enough, but not any other magic system (voidinding, old magic). What I look for in a focus is something that is present in every system. That does not mean it has to be the only way into the system.

 

Ok, here's the other big example: Soulcasting. In Soulcasting, one requires gems:

 

ArsenoPyrite ()

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gems? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements—in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron)? Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

Brandon Sanderson

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the Mistborn world, emerald and heliodor can be very similar—but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic—it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

(source)

 

Note the explicit comparison to metals and talk of the gem as being a "key".

 

As you yourself note, fabrials involve gems. Almost as if... gems were the focus of Roshar?

 

Harmony does create something that grants allomancy while not being a metal: the Mists, IMO the Honorblades are something similar.

Just because they were the first way the system was used, does not mean that it is the 'natural' way. To me, the (likely) shardic involvement in the (creation of the) Honorblades makes them the more likely candidate to be the hack.

 

I hope you won't take it in poor taste if I quote the same WoB again:

 

QUESTION

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

(source)

QUESTION

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

(source)

 

I want to bring attention to the first sentence of the second part of this WoB. Like, paint it in flaming letters on a mountain or something.

 

"Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle."

 

When you have Stormlight, it is like having the mists: the power has permeated you, and you no longer fully require a nozzle (the planet's focus, it appears). Vin takes in the mist, she no longer needs to use metals as a focus. The clear parallel would be when a Surgebinder takes in Stormlight and no longer needs to use gems as a focus (except in the case of Soulcasting).

 

We see this in Breath, to a degree. As Oversleep notes, Breath is special in that an Awakener is capable of doing almost anything. The system is "continuous". The clear implication is that this is because the Awakener gets to use his will to shape the power, he does not need to use much of a focus - will and intent shape the magic to a huge degree, and your will is very malleable (unlike a metal). This is also seemingly why Awakening is so difficult to do without taking in a lot of Breath - your mind is not expanded enough to shape Investiture except very crudely.

 

So we need to look at magic on Roshar where the practitioner is not taking in Stormlight directly if we're going to find the focus of the planet. And in that case... gems seem pretty important. Spren too of, course, but as Brandon notes, Roshar is a little special. And there is the Honorblades, which show spren are not needed.

 

I differentiate strongly between how magic is used and how it is obtained: spren can be used to obtain the magic in a lot of cases (the equivalent of a Mistborn's sDNA), but ultimately on Roshar a bond with a Splinter seems sufficient (sort of like eating lerasium, which is sort of like a Splinter). Spren do not seem to be a needed part of using the power - will and intent are what is used there.

 

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that the mists are at all similar to an Honorblade. For one, they're the equivalent of the highstorms:

 

Wetlander

Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.

(source)

Edited February 2, 2016 by Moogle

[Oversleep]

Moogle, I am not sure you correctly understood what I meant by Continuous and Discrete magic. Continuous magic system is a system with all the users capable of the same things - Awakeners can all use the same Commands.
But users of Discrete Magic do not. All Allomancers use the same focus (metal) but not the same subfocuses: Coinshots use steel and Seekers use bronze. One cannot use the other's subfocus.
All magic users on Sel use forms and shapes, but ChayShanist cannot draw Aons in the air like Elantrians do.

And you're not quite right about Awakening - all Awakeners use Commands. Vasher himself said that Awakeners of Tenth Heightening use Commands (they can be mental, but still needed). It's not that will and intent are more important here - I'd actually say that Allomancy allows for more free room with the power than Awakening. Awakening would be between Aons and metals, I'd say.
Once you're burning steel you can do anything you want with it, but with Commands you have to be very specific about what the Awakened Object is to do and your mind have to give context to it.

I'd be easier to explain if you were a programmer, but I'll try.
AonDor is like assembler - rough, do very specific thing and consists of (relatively) small set of instructions. To do complex thing you have to use a lot of instructions.
Awakening is like a a higher level programming - it needs context (mental image), it has a large set of instructions (a whole language, I'd say XD) and very complex things can be contained in few words.