theory Roshar's Focus

[Ari he/him]

I think metals summoning investure directly from the Shard is a bit of a special case for Mistborn. After all commands don't suddenly make Breath and/or color appear, which still have to be added separately.

 

Nope. Selish magic works the same way, although with the complication of the distance factor. It's really Awakening that's unique as far as we know in this case in *not* drawing power as well as being the focus, which seems to be because Endowment just gives the power away before you even ask in the form of breaths. This is why I get a little frustrated sometimes discussing SA because its longer format means we're taking this magic theory thing a lot slower for it and there's a lot more RAFO.

 

 

A focus doesn't necessarily draw power. I would define it as simply shaping power. In Awakening, Commands do not get Endowment's power from the Spiritual - they use what you have.

 

As to why Soulcasting requires a focus and will is not sufficient, I cannot say for sure. I suspect that the mental discipline required to Soulcast an object (ie. form a focus of will) is simply inhumanly difficult due to how you're changing the Spiritual. In Awakening, Commands are really really hard to learn unless you've expanded your mind by gaining a very high Heightening. So in this case, gemstones act as a crutch. Maybe you could learn to Soulcast without them.

 

 

I guess I'm theorizing that Radiants could use gems to direct the power - for example, Lift could have maybe used a heliodor filled with Stormlight and used that to heal her thief friend rather than using her own will. But it's not like it required too much mental discipline from her, so why ever bother?

 

But I'm not sure if, for example, spren are providing the necessary will/focus to Surgebind. I suspect they aren't.

 

 

Technically, Aons in AonDor get power from elsewhere (the Cognitive), so Mistborn isn't unique. But I would agree Sel/Scadrial's systems of drawing Investiture from other Realms is probably rather rare.

 

All good points, I agree but as above my perspective is somewhat different on the drawing external power being more common. That may be shaped by annotations and WoBs referring to the nature of cosmere magic systems- I think Brandon referred to most systems as being "end-positive" in Mistborn terminology, which suggests some way of accessing external power, although that terminology is so messy in comparison to talking about focii that access power and focii that simply direct magic. You're totally right that I may be over-reading that and that highstorms may be the only handy way to get investiture on Roshar, at least, investiture that's compatible with Honour's powers.

 

Aons (and stamps) are definitely doing the same thing metals are doing, we have WoB comparing the two, it's simply likely they're sourcing the power from a different realm.

 

I'll definitely keep more of an open mind on gems. I was convinced on that until recently, but I realised I wasn't using the term focus right, which made me change my mind, and I'm a bit more stubborn about being convinced back to a theory I'd abandoned, lol.

 

 

I am still quite convinced about the "Bond" as Focus on Roshar.

 

The Fabrial may be explained as "Fabrial magic= bond beetween right Polestone and Right Spren".

In the Navani's notebook for example, she call the Fabrial the (gem+spren ) alone and machine the whole tool.

 

In the end also the ability of gemstone to keep stormlight, may be explained through the bonds as focus. The Gemstone is probably the Physical material that contain an elegant series of specific bond between the atoms and the different polestone are just little variation of the same structure. In few words, the gemstone may be see as "pysichal bonds".

 

Fabrials are definitely the weak point of this theory. I don't think that stretching the bond metaphor really helps here because there IS no bond to the polestone, as fabrials encounter stress and break in their normal use a lot. This was part of why I was initially partial to the explanation of gemstones being Roshar's focus.

 

Keep in mind that the focus can be something like gemstones while still maintaining the special nature of bonds on Roshar. (which can be down to something as simple as "honour's power manifests through bonds and that power is heavily invested in Roshar")

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ari

[Edgedancer he/him]

Nope. Selish magic works the same way, although with the complication of the distance factor. It's really Awakening that's unique as far as we know in this case in *not* drawing power as well as being the focus, which seems to be because Endowment just gives the power away before you even ask in the form of breaths. This is why I get a little frustrated sometimes discussing SA because its longer format means we're taking this magic theory thing a lot slower for it and there's a lot more RAFO.

On the Dor, yes and no. the reason I didn't bring it up is that it's kind of plama like nature makes it different from the other systems we know, so it is kind of like Allomancy in that it draws in the Investiture but it is also different and like Surgebinding, Awakening or using the mist for Allomancy in that the Investiture is already there and no signal has to be send to the Shard to beam down the Investiture.

[Stormgate he/him]

The Aons work on exactly the same principle as the Scadrian metals. The Aon draws the investiture, and the shape forms it into the (hopefully) desired effect.

[Edgedancer he/him]

The Aons work on exactly the same principle as the Scadrian metals. The Aon draws the investiture, and the shape forms it into the (hopefully) desired effect.

They work the same way in that the focus shapes the effect. They are different in that Mistborn draw power from the Shards, while the Dor is already kind of there. Extremely similair yes but not exactly the same, because the nature of the investiture they draw from is different.

[Stormgate he/him]

There is speculation that the Dor is the combined Cognitive shadows of Devotion and Dominion, or something like that.

[Oversleep]

Isn't Dor just rough Shard power? Dominion and Devotion are no more and their power kind of flooded the planet. It leaks to Physical Realm through Sel's focus, which is correct shape and pattern.

The same would happen on Roshar with Honor's power if it weren't for the sprens - the power assumed the form which was already prevalent on Roshar, creating more sprens.

...Then, what is Stormlight? It doesn't belong to any of the Shards, I believe. It is something not seen before like Breaths, I guess?

[Stormgate he/him]

Stormlight is probably of Honor, and is sustained by the Stormfather?

[Edgedancer he/him]

Isn't Dor just rough Shard power? Dominion and Devotion are no more and their power kind of flooded the planet. It leaks to Physical Realm through Sel's focus, which is correct shape and pattern.

Honestly, I don't know. The only thing Brandon really tells us about the Dor is that it is different from other systems and that people should ask more questions about it and that it is kind of like plasma. So is the Dor more like stormlight or like drawing energy directly from a Shard? I dunno, that'd require us to actually know what the Dor is.

[Stormgate he/him]

He wants more questions? What are we doing, then?

[Ari he/him]

On the Dor, yes and no. the reason I didn't bring it up is that it's kind of plama like nature makes it different from the other systems we know, so it is kind of like Allomancy in that it draws in the Investiture but it is also different and like Surgebinding, Awakening or using the mist for Allomancy in that the Investiture is already there and no signal has to be send to the Shard to beam down the Investiture.

 

The only functional difference from Allomancy that we're aware of is the distance modifier. (Granted, we're aware of a lot of things going on behind the scenes with Selish magic, and it has modifiers that can shape the effects to be more subtle. But those don't really stop it from being a "focus draws power" type system) We know little enough about magic systems that we really can't set any of them aside in considering how realmatics as a whole works. It also seems that Forgery and the funny dancing system both use a similar method of drawing power, and while we can't be sure, it's entirely possible that so do the Dakhor monks.

 

Isn't Dor just rough Shard power? Dominion and Devotion are no more and their power kind of flooded the planet. It leaks to Physical Realm through Sel's focus, which is correct shape and pattern.

The same would happen on Roshar with Honor's power if it weren't for the sprens - the power assumed the form which was already prevalent on Roshar, creating more sprens.

...Then, what is Stormlight? It doesn't belong to any of the Shards, I believe. It is something not seen before like Breaths, I guess?

 

Stormlight is definitely at least partially composed of Honour's equivalent to the Mists on Scadrial. (iirc there's a WoB about this, which I might you looking for) It might also have some of Cultivation's power in it, too.

[Edgedancer he/him]

The only functional difference from Allomancy that we're aware of is the distance modifier. (Granted, we're aware of a lot of things going on behind the scenes with Selish magic, and it has modifiers that can shape the effects to be more subtle. But those don't really stop it from being a "focus draws power" type system) We know little enough about magic systems that we really can't set any of them aside in considering how realmatics as a whole works. It also seems that Forgery and the funny dancing system both use a similar method of drawing power, and while we can't be sure, it's entirely possible that so do the Dakhor monks.

 

 

Stormlight is definitely at least partially composed of Honour's equivalent to the Mists on Scadrial. (iirc there's a WoB about this, which I might you looking for) It might also have some of Cultivation's power in it, too.

The only thing I'm saying is that we can not use the Dor as a data point for the focus drawing the power from a Shard, because the Dor is not connected to a Shard but already spread over all of Sel. That the focus can draw in power stands for much more systems but Allomancy is the only one that we know for certain draws in the Investiture directly from the Shard, without said power already being present in one form or another.

[Moogle]

Stormlight is definitely at least partially composed of Honour's equivalent to the Mists on Scadrial. (iirc there's a WoB about this, which I might you looking for) It might also have some of Cultivation's power in it, too.

 

I don't believe there's any such WoB saying the highstorms are of Honor - if there is I've missed it, though it seems very likely. The nature of Stormlight is really interesting and one of the major unexplained things so far to my knowledge.

[Yata he/him]

I don't believe there's any such WoB saying the highstorms are of Honor - if there is I've missed it, though it seems very likely. The nature of Stormlight is really interesting and one of the major unexplained things so far to my knowledge.

The HighStorm probably predate Honor & Coltivation (the Rider of the Storm was present in the early days of the Listener) and the Listener need (at least I presume) Stormlight to change Form.

 

Therefore probably the Stormlight isn't of H&C. But of course I may be wrong

[Moogle]

Therefore probably the Stormlight isn't of H&C. But of course I may be wrong

 

After H&C&O came, it may be that their Investiture infused the highstorms. I can't say for sure, but it seems likely. We know that this sort of thing will happen for most Shards, a sort of "Spiritual humidity":

 

Q. Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the physical realm? About the different states of matter, what determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I’ve read the relevant sections carefully, haven’t noticed much about temperature difference.

A. The idea for me working on this is that they transcend, they permeate everything. They permeate all life on all the realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it’s kind of like they appear there in the various states. When you say that you’ve got the gas, you’ve got the liquid, you’ve got the solid: but you’ve also got inside of you, inside of that plant, like they’re everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it’s just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distils, just like water. There’s some water in the air, there’s some that freezes: that’s temperature. But it’s not always temperature whether it’s in the air, or whether it’s falling. Imagine a spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what’s happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that’s what you get.

Q. Because you’ve talked about alloying the god metals, I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.

A. If you could distil the god metal: you could distil it out of the mist, that’s theoretically possible.

(source)

[Yata he/him]

 

After H&C&O came, it may be that their Investiture infused the highstorms. I can't say for sure, but it seems likely. We know that this sort of thing will happen for most Shards, a sort of "Spiritual humidity":

 

The Problem is that the Listener needed of Investiture to change Form also before H&C.

Unless before H&C the Highstorm was infused of X (where X was a natural leak of Investiture without any shard) and after H&C they replaced X with Stormlight (probably more powerfull and carrying their Intent).

 

But it seems to me a bit strange this "replacing investiture thing".

 

Roshar seems a place  where the walls between the realms is more weak than on other Shardworlds. It's possible that the Stormlight is just a natural Leaking from the Spiritual Realm.

If I remember right once Mr. Sanderson said something like "The Stormlight is like light bulm from the Spiritual Realm" (not the exact words).

[z²22222]

The only thing I'm saying is that we can not use the Dor as a data point for the focus drawing the power from a Shard, because the Dor is not connected to a Shard but already spread over all of Sel. That the focus can draw in power stands for much more systems but Allomancy is the only one that we know for certain draws in the Investiture directly from the Shard, without said power already being present in one form or another.

The new Elantris Ars Arcanum mentions that the Elantrians channel the corpse of their God. This would mean that they are indeed drawing power from a shard, albeit a splintered one. Perhaps someone can get the exact quote, I can't access my copy right now.

[Moogle]

The Problem is that the Listener needed of Investiture to change Form also before H&C.

Unless before H&C the Highstorm was infused of X (where X was a natural leak of Investiture without any shard) and after H&C they replaced X with Stormlight (probably more powerfull and carrying their Intent).

 

I would guess the highstorm Investiture was added to, rather than replaced, by H&C&O's Investiture, but I can't say for sure. It's something to keep in mind if there's another AMA, I guess...

[Yata he/him]

The new Elantris Ars Arcanum mentions that the Elantrians channel the corpse of their God. This would mean that they are indeed drawing power from a shard, albeit a splintered one. Perhaps someone can get the exact quote, I can't access my copy right now.

Well every magic system is made possible by the body of a Shard (or more Shards). In the current state of Sel (with the Shards dead) is no wrong to say that the Dor is actually their "corpses" as fuel of magic.

I am with the one who say that the Dor works exactly like a Shard unless the "geographical problem".

 

EDIT: Anyway we must remember that Ars Arcanum was written with In-Cosmere knowledge and it's not 100% accurate. It's written by an Human. And only the Shard may understand the whole Realmatic theory

Edited January 6, 2016 by Yata

[Ari he/him]

I don't believe there's any such WoB saying the highstorms are of Honor - if there is I've missed it, though it seems very likely. The nature of Stormlight is really interesting and one of the major unexplained things so far to my knowledge.

 

Brandon never mentions they're of honour himself, just that they're the Rosharan equivalent to the mists. I'm the one who thinks they're at least somewhat of Honour nowadays.

 

It would be very interesting that Tanavast's cognitive shadow could direct them around if his power wasn't somehow invested in them, however.

 

I'm not ruling out that the highstorms existed from innate investiture before Honour's arrival, of course.

 

I'm not with Yata that the existence of Parshendi forms requires a pre-arrival Stormfather, however. If the Parshendi were changing forms back then, (it's always possible the forms are something of Odium...) they could always have been doing it with innate investiture. We know from Seventh of Dusk that you don't need a Shard to get magic.

[natc]

Parshendi apparently predate the Shattering outright, so they wouldn't have had Odious forms at first.

I highly doubt they had a different method before and then evolved to the point that they can't perform a fundamental function without standing in the middle of a storm that will kill a guy. The Storm was likely already there.

Edited January 29, 2016 by natc

[Ari he/him]

Yeah, pre-existing highstorms is definitely a valid explanation for how they used innate investiture to transform, if such an explanation is needed.

[natc]

Though either way the Letter suggest that Adonalsium himself (her? It?) set up this nonsensical ecology they have there. Such biological dependency on sentient investiture entities in the cognitive realm doesn't feel natural at all, though from that starting point onwards everything currently around besides Shinovar seems like understandable evolutionary progression.

[Yata he/him]

I'm not with Yata that the existence of Parshendi forms requires a pre-arrival Stormfather, however. If the Parshendi were changing forms back then, (it's always possible the forms are something of Odium...) they could always have been doing it with innate investiture. We know from Seventh of Dusk that you don't need a Shard to get magic.

But my main point was that the Stormlight isn't H&C investiture, but natural Adonalsium's Investiture   

[Oversleep]

I thought about this lately. Magic is interaction between focus and Intent - focus is the means by which you access the Investiture and Intent is how you do it.
Nalthis: you Endow Investiture by using a Command.

Scadrial:

• you Preserve yourself by burning metal
• you Ruin yourself while storing in metal and Preserve by tapping the metal
• you Ruin by spiking with metal both the donor and recipient

Sel: it's gonna be tricky, since both Shards are Splintered and rough power mixed. Shape/form is definitely the focus, but to use AonDor you need to be an Elantrian and to be taken by Shaod you need to be Devoted. No idea about the rest of the systems (also, I haven't read Emperor's soul).

 

Roshar: every form of magic uses spren and Stormlight. Gems are also there, but on the other hand on Nalthis there is also the condition of human-like forms. This human-likeness is everywhere, but it's not the focus. It's something else.
Other things also hold Stormlight (briefly and not very good, but they do) and gems tend to be perfect.

The focus is spren.

Much like Shard moving to Scadrial needs to Invest to get its godmetal, Shards on Roshar Invest to create spren. At least Odium does, since with Honor situation is special since he doesn't have another choice because he is Splintered.

• Surgebinding: there are spren there, but with Honor the case is binding them (binding things together seems Honor thing) and speaking Oaths (another Honor thing) to deepen the bond. You access Investiture by the bond with the spren (drawing in Stormlight) and spren filters Investiture into Surges. Honorblades probably are just a hack with artificial spren (much like Divine Breath of Returned).
• Fabrials use the focus in form of spren, which filter Stormlight. Right gem cut and color may seem to be important, but maybe it's because different spren are trapped in different gemstones. Again, parallel to Nalthis human body similarity. Since they use normal sprens and not Radiantspren or voidspren, I guess they bypass Shards accessing natural Investiture.
• Listeners' forms are similar, they attract and merge with spren (probably pre-Shard spren). Where is Stormlight in the process? Listeners change forms in the highstorm, so Stormlight is probably needed.
  I just realized that we don't know if the form can be maintained indefinitely long or if they need to change it sometimes or atleast supply Stormlight by coming out in the highstorm. Much like Returned need to consume Breaths; but Returned are unnatural so they need Breaths much more often than Listeners would do. We need to ask Brandon.
• Voidbringers are a Odium's hack of natural Listener forms - he Invests and creates his own spren to exploit their forms.

We know that Seon bond also could grant some powers, but by moving on Roshar Seon would be similar to spren enough to do it.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Oversleep

[Moogle]

• Surgebinding: there are spren there, but with Honor the case is binding them (binding things together seems Honor thing) and speaking Oaths (another Honor thing) to deepen the bond. You access Investiture by the bond with the spren (drawing in Stormlight) and spren filters Investiture into Surges. Honorblades probably are just a hack with artificial spren (much like Divine Breath of Returned).

We know that Seon bond also could grant some powers, but by moving on Roshar Seon would be similar to spren enough to do it.

 

Honor was surprised by the spren being able to grant Surgebinding, which speaks strongly against the idea of Honorblades being "artificial" spren. Not to mention that Soulcasting and the other types of fabrials that the Radiants made exist as well. The spren were said to have actively copied the Honorblades - I would say they are the hack, if anything, and unlikely to be the focus of Roshar as a result.

 

Honor's remark, for reference (WoR):

“I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren— wishing to imitate what I had given men— who made it possible.

 

On your last point: we have a WoB suggesting that no, coming to Roshar doesn't matter, bond mechanics works everywhere:

 

Q: Is [the Nahel/Seon] bond relatively common or is what seons, spren, and night blood do little more rare among splinters. I'm specifically talking about the act of making bonds not a giving of magic powers really, that appearing to be function of Roshar. Also regarding your post about storm light 3 I am personally ok with 2000 pages if need be so make the chapters as long as you want.

A: The bonding is basically the same mechanic, regardless of the world, just with different flavoring. Roshar isn't the only place where the bond gives powers; it's a matter of what's stuffed into the soul, and how.

(source)

 

Here's the one you're referring to for reference:

 

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

(source)

 

Note that Surgebinding works off-world, which we wouldn't expect if it was Roshar itself granting special powers to people with bonds.