theory Roshar's Focus

[Oversleep]

New Year, new theory! Well, the idea isn't new, but I want to provide additional insight.

I'll be drawing pararells with Scadrial here.
So, on Scadrial metal is undoubtely the focus, right? And if we had another Shard come to Scadrial, it would get its own godmetal, probably.
Now, let's take a look at Surgebinders. They get powers by bonding a Splinter (spren in Roshar's example).
What would happen if somebody bonded to a Splinter came to Roshar? Like person from Sel bonded to a Seon?
It would also grant him some abilities (there was a WoB, but I can't find it). So what's important is having a bond.

Parshendi bond spren very tightly, to the point of somewhat merging with them. (Shame we don't know which spren are used in Listeners' forms)
Spren are bound to gems in fabrials to make them work.

Now, let's take a look at Returned. They don't 'bond' a Splinter, they are one with the Splinter. Just like Listeners.
Both of them possess some shapeshifting ability as a result.

Your thoughts?

Edited January 29, 2016 by Oversleep

[Stormgate he/him]

I think Roshar's focus is symmetry. Think about it. The Shardworlds have two forms of written language: one the Shards on the world can read, and one they cannot. Case in point: writing on metal. The artisans script on Nalthis. The Aons on Sel. The glyphs on Roshar.

[DreamEternal]

I think Roshar's focus is symmetry. Think about it. The Shardworlds have two forms of written language: one the Shards on the world can read, and one they cannot. Case in point: writing on metal. The artisans script on Nalthis. The Aons on Sel. The glyphs on Roshar.

The only one of those we know for sure is the writing on metal.

[Moogle]

What would happen if somebody bonded to a Splinter came to Roshar? Like person from Sel bonded to a Seon?

It would also grant him some abilities (there was a WoB, but I can't find it). So what's important is having a bond.

 

I would be very careful with this. As I wrote here (note: the WoB being referenced re. Seons is also at this link), there is a WoB which argues against the idea that specifically going to Roshar will give you powers. Most magic in the Cosmere is location-independent, so a bond giving special powers only while on Roshar is something we should be skeptical of.

[Oversleep]

One the other hand...
 

 

Q:  Could a Seon, or a Skaze, could they turn into a, some sort of Shardblade on their own planet?
A:  That is theoretically possible. It's—I mean they work under the same fundamentals, but they would need to have something to pull them more into the physical realm.
source

[Moogle]

One the other hand...

 

I may be misinterpreting you - I think you're disagreeing with me? - but that WoB just supports my position that Roshar is nothing special. 

 

It says the Seon bond is like a Nahel bond even to the point that you can turn Seons into Shardblades if you found a way to pull them into the Physical (which presumably requires some way to bond them even more strongly - for Honor/Cultivation's Investiture, through personal growth and the saying of Words, but on Sel it might not be easy).

[Master_Moridin he/him]

I may be misinterpreting you - I think you're disagreeing with me? - but that WoB just supports my position that Roshar is nothing special. 

 

It says the Seon bond is like a Nahel bond even to the point that you can turn Seons into Shardblades if you found a way to pull them into the Physical (which presumably requires some way to bond them even more strongly - for Honor/Cultivation's Investiture, through personal growth and the saying of Words, but on Sel it might not be easy).

 

What if then what he meant in that original WoB about Seons and Roshar was that being on Roshar makes it easier for Seons to go into the Physical?  And that that would allow for specific things?

[Moogle]

What if then what he meant in that original WoB about Seons and Roshar was that being on Roshar makes it easier for Seons to go into the Physical?  And that that would allow for specific things?

 

That might be true... there's no spren in Shinovar, so it might be that highstorms help for that sort of thing. But Kaladin for example could not summon Syl as a Shardblade until he swore enough oaths and had a really strong bond with her. 

 

Because of that, I think it's mostly that to get a Seon Shardblade you would need to strengthen your bond to it. (Feruchemical duralumin, perhaps?)

 

It's all just speculation, of course...

[Yata he/him]

@moogle: There is a WoB about the "symbiotic-magic" that began more powerfull on Roshar.

Maybe a Surgebinder will have need of a "stronger bond" to summon a Sprenblade in other Shardworlds (example: you have to be a complete Radiant Knight).

 

About the Seon bond, it not seems to have some kind of "progress" it may be strong as "Surgbinder's bond with X oath" but it's hard to say.

[Moogle]

@moogle: There is a WoB about the "symbiotic-magic" that began more powerfull on Roshar.

 

I linked it, but if it's this one:

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

(source)

 

I don't agree that it means Roshar grants powers, and he doesn't explicitly say going to Roshar will change things - it is implied to always acts as a Nahel bond in this one, also in my link:

Q: Is [the Nahel/Seon] bond relatively common or is what seons, spren, and night blood do little more rare among splinters. I'm specifically talking about the act of making bonds not a giving of magic powers really, that appearing to be function of Roshar. Also regarding your post about storm light 3 I am personally ok with 2000 pages if need be so make the chapters as long as you want.

A: The bonding is basically the same mechanic, regardless of the world, just with different flavoring. Roshar isn't the only place where the bond gives powers; it's a matter of what's stuffed into the soul, and how.

(source)

 

If you're talking about a different one, I'm afraid I don't recall it.

 

---

 

About the Seon bond, it not seems to have some kind of "progress" it may be strong as "Surgbinder's bond with X oath" but it's hard to say.

 

Well, I mainly attribute progress to Surgebinding due to the presence of Cultivation. So we wouldn't expect anything similar with a Seon.

 

I don't believe the Seon bond is very powerful, myself. Not compared to a Surgebinder with oaths. It does not seem to require a cracked soul (or if it does, the cracks don't need to be big). Which, to be fair, may be an aspect of Devotion's Investiture, but that's my thinking.

[Yata he/him]

First of all, you have probably right about the "power level" of a Seon's Bond.

 

I was talking about another WoB (that at the moment I can't find ). It was a WoB about the Magic Systems that drawn power from an external/internal source and how the two types work differently. One need deeply the Intent (more precise), the other not (more power oriented) and in the end Say something like:

"Surgebinding is a bit strange because the Symbiotic magic is more powerfull on Roshar" (not the exactly words)

[Moogle]

I was talking about another WoB (that at the moment I can't find ). It was a WoB about the Magic Systems that drawn power from an external/internal source and how the two types work differently. One need deeply the Intent (more precise), the other not (more power oriented) and in the end Say something like:

"Surgebinding is a bit strange because the Symbiotic magic is more powerfull on Roshar" (not the exactly words)

 

This one?

 

QUESTION

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

(source)

QUESTION

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

(source)

 

I, *cough cough*, may have asked this particular one so I tend to remember it well. I don't know if I agree that this WoB says that Roshar specifically is important. It seems like the fact that the power has become sentient is what makes the magical symbiosis stronger. (I don't know what means exactly. Does it mean that, because the bits of power are sentient, that Surgebinding becomes less will-intensive?)

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

I, *cough cough*, may have asked this particular one so I tend to remember it well. I don't know if I agree that this WoB says that Roshar specifically is important. It seems like the fact that the power has become sentient is what makes the magical symbiosis stronger. (I don't know what means exactly. Does it mean that, because the bits of power are sentient, that Surgebinding becomes less will-intensive?)

 

 

I think you mean sapient, not sentient, mr. Sanderson has been pretty definitive about the difference.

 

Some surgebindings aren't will-intensive at all, think of Kaladin subconciously pulling arrows into the bridge he was carrying.

But now you've got me wondering whether it's possible that in some cases the spren can provide the intent to perform a surgebinding, much in the same way that Ruin could provide the intent in creating a Hemalurgic spike?

 

Anyway, I doubt Roshar's focus is bonds, because of fabrials. Even though fabrials aren't 'classical' magic, they are magi-tech, so it would make sense to me that it would also require the planet's focus to function.

I believe spren themselves to be the more likely focus for Roshar, though we'd have to see some voidbinding or Old Magic first to be certain.

[Moogle]

I believe spren themselves to be the more likely focus for Roshar, though we'd have to see some voidbinding or Old Magic first to be certain.

 

The key part of this is that Honorblades are not spren to anyone's knowledge, so if it's spren as a focus then that doesn't make much sense. And remember - spren modeled themselves after the Honorblades, so it's like they are the "natural" source of magic on Roshar, if that makes sense?

 

Again, it comes down to how you define a focus. I think my definition of "something which acts like 'nozzle' in the magic system is a focus" is the best we're going to get, since a "focus" isn't really a fundamental part of magic, it's just a higher level approximation.

 

All magic systems can have will as their focus, it seems - Vin with the mists, Awakeners with Breath, Surgebinders with Stormlight. If you have "Physical" Investiture it seems that will is almost always your focus. Similarly, for those who do not hold Physical Investiture - Allomancers in most cases and Elantrians - you must use something as a limiter.

 

Given that, as Brandon says in the WoB above, will is your nozzle (to a decent extent) in Surgebindings, I'm inclined to believe that gemstones are in fact "the" focus of Roshar. Surgebinding just bypasses this focus and replaces it with will, much like Vin with the mists replaces the focus of metals. You can say that will is not important, but in every case where Kaladin uses his powers unconsciously he's certainly willing it to happen. (In his head, he was very much likely going "I DON'T WANT TO GET HIT BY ARROWS" and that counts. As the WoB above notes, will is not as important in Surgebinding as it is in Awakening.)

 

Roshar is weird enough that I think saying "X is the focus" is only useful for magitech purposes - much like you probably make mist fabrials on Scadrial from metal. The spren sort of aren't a codified magic system, but all the same gems can focus the power of a captured spren, or focus a Soulcasting.

 

You could make an argument that the Surges are the focus (all codified magic - the 30 systems - apparently uses the Surges as a base), and I believe it was Skaa theorizing that it's the Essences. I don't know how I feel about this, but I think that the fact that Navani outright says "patterns of stormlight filtered through the fabrial determine the power of the gem" seems about as blatant as you can get in calling faceted gems focuses - or whatever the equivalent of Aons in AonDor is. (Aons are the focus in that system, but perhaps there's more to magic systems than sticky materials like gems and metals and focuses like Aons and Commands - metals are both a sticky material and a focus.)

 

However, given how wishy-washy I've been on this in the past (I think I've changed my mind from "gems" to "spren" to "bonds" and now to "gems" again) I would take all this with a heap of salt.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Moogle

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

The key part of this is that Honorblades are not spren to anyone's knowledge, so if it's spren as a focus then that doesn't make much sense. And remember - spren modeled themselves after the Honorblades, so it's like they are the "natural" source of magic on Roshar, if that makes sense?

 

 

But the honorblades were created directly by Honor himself, they could easily be a hack. 

 

Accepting your honorblade requirement for the sake of argument, I seem to recall a description of an honorblade lacking a gemstone (Szeth's, I believe).

 

Roshar is weird enough that I think saying "X is the focus" is only useful for magitech purposes - much like you probably make mist fabrials on Scadrial from metal. The spren sort of aren't a codified magic system, but all the same gems can focus the power of a captured spren, or focus a Soulcasting.

 

On the other hand, the type of gem stormlight was drawn from has so far had no discernible effect on the gravitation and adhesion surges.

 

...

 

Has anyone already considered that due to Odium's presence on another planet in the Greater Roshar system, yet also affecting the magic system(s) on Roshar, Braise's focus might be mixed in there somewhere as well?

[Ari he/him]

Moogle's right to be urging caution about taking those particular WoBs too far. Yes, Splinter Bonds behave differently on Roshar. No, that doesn't necessarily mean that bringing a Seon to Roshar would make you into a Knight of Devotion with similar powers to a Knight Radiant. (it *could* mean something along those lines, but don't assume it will happen before collecting some evidence)

 

On clarification of the term focus, (it's specifically how you select which investiture ability to use if you have access to more than one) I have no idea how it applies to Roshar any more, and I think gems play a role more similar to that of Colour in awakening- they're a required catalyst for some Radiant abilities, and a good holder for Stormlight and captured Spren. This would seem to make them some sort of combination of battery and catalyst for Honour's (and maybe Cultivation's) power.

[Moogle]

But the honorblades were created directly by Honor himself, they could easily be a hack. 

 

Accepting your honorblade requirement for the sake of argument, I seem to recall a description of an honorblade lacking a gemstone (Szeth's, I believe).

 

I don't know if I got it across in my last post, so I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record if I try to clarify this:

 

A magic system's focus is not always required for magic. This is not speculation on my part, this comes directly from the WoB in my previous post above which says, summarized and bolded to note that this part is super important to my point:

 

Q: What turns Investiture into an effect like a Steelpush in Allomancy?

A: Metals act like little nozzles you put on playdough things. You squirt the playdough through the nozzle, and the nozzle shapes the playdough. With Allomancy, you push Preservation's Investiture through the metal nozzle and the nozzle turns it into a Steelpush.

 

Q: But wait, how the heck do the mists work, then? There's no metal nozzles!

A: When you get actual Investiture inside of you like the mists/Stormlight/Breath, will can also act as a nozzle. You don't need a metal nozzle in this case.

 

I'm theorizing that gemstones are the focus of Roshar, but you don't need them to perform Surgebindings (though you do for Soulcasting!), and we shouldn't expect you to need them to perform Surgebindings. Because you're using Stormlight and letting it infuse you (like the mists infused Vin and let her bypass the use of metals), will can replace whatever the actual focus of Roshar is.

 

Honorblades not having gemstones is perfectly fine and is consistent with the idea that gemstones are the focus of Roshar.

 

---

 

To speculate further with the gem idea, when will is absent - when you need an actual focus to make up for it - we see that Surgebinding fabrials use gemstones. Which heavily points towards gems being the focus of Roshar (or at least Surgebinding). Surgebinding fabrials, to our knowledge, do not use trapped spren in gemstones. If they did, artifabrians would have learned how to replicate them by now.

 

To speculate on gem-spren fabrials, consider Allomancy: when you power gold through Ruin, ie. with malatium, you get a different effect. The Intent of the Investiture changes what happens when filtered. So when you take different spren types, each with different Intents, and filter them through the gem, we get different non-Surgebindey effects.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Moogle

[Ari he/him]

I don't know if I got it across in my last post, so I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record if I try to clarify this:

 

A magic system's focus is not always required for magic. This is not speculation on my part, this comes directly from the WoB in my previous post above which says, summarized and bolded to note that this part is super important to my point:

 

Q: What turns Investiture into an effect like a Steelpush in Allomancy?

A: Metals act like little nozzles you put on playdough things. You squirt the playdough through the nozzle, and the nozzle shapes the playdough. With Allomancy, you push Preservation's Investiture through the metal nozzle and the nozzle turns it into a Steelpush.

 

Q: But wait, how the heck do the mists work, then? There's no metal nozzles!

A: When you get actual Investiture inside of you like the mists/Stormlight/Breath, will can also act as a nozzle. You don't need a metal nozzle in this case.

 

I'm theorizing that gemstones are the focus of Roshar, but you don't need them to perform Surgebindings (though you do for Soulcasting!), and we shouldn't expect you to need them to perform Surgebindings. Because you're using Stormlight and letting it infuse you (like the mists infused Vin and let her bypass the use of metals), will can replace whatever the actual focus of Roshar is.

 

Of course, when will is absent - when you need an actual focus to make up for it - we see that Surgebinding fabrials use gemstones. Which heavily points towards gems being the focus of Roshar (or at least Surgebinding).

 

Honorblades not having gemstones is perfectly fine and is consistent with the idea that gemstones are the focus of Roshar.

 

That's well and good, but what about the orders of KR that don't use gemstones for their abilities? (Kaladin, for instance, can fly directly off the Stormlight from a highstorm) And there doesn't seem to be any role in which gemstone you draw Stormlight from selecting which ability you use, unlike Commands or Metals. They really don't act like other focii at all. If anything, the best argument you could make so far is that the nature of the Spren bond is the focus, as it determines which two surges you have access to- but that's a little different from how things work in other magic systems as well, as you still can choose between the two available surges without any special requirements or change in the nature of the KR's Spren or their bond. So nothing really works as expected just yet.

 

All in all, I wonder if "Roshar is weird" is simply where we need to start until we have some more information about how magic works there. I mean, we barely know much more than the basics how Initiation and Stormlight work, and what powers fabrials, at this stage.

[Moogle]

That's well and good, but what about the orders of KR that don't use gemstones for their abilities? (Kaladin, for instance, can fly directly off the Stormlight from a highstorm) And there doesn't seem to be any role in which gemstone you draw Stormlight from selecting which ability you use, unlike Commands or Metals. They really don't act like other focii at all. If anything, the best argument you could make so far is that the nature of the Spren bond is the focus, as it determines which two surges you have access to- but that's a little different from how things work in other magic systems as well, as you still can choose between the two available surges without any special requirements or change in the nature of the KR's Spren or their bond. So nothing really works as expected just yet.

 

Again, I apologize if I sound like a broken record, because I think I'm not making my point well:

 

Focuses are not related to how you get your powers. An Allomancer is an Allomancer whether or not they have metal in their stomach. You can use Allomancy if you have the mists and no metals. If Scadrial ran out of metals and only had the mists, Allomancers would still exist and could use the mists to power their abilities.

 

But metals are a focus. They shape power into an effect. But an Allomancer does not need to use metals, they can use the mists and, instead of using metals as a focus, use their will instead.

 

Similarly, Surgebinders - because they're using pure Investiture like the mists Vin used - don't care about gems.  And, like with Allomancy, one can seemingly replace their will in Surgebinding and use a material focus - in other words, use a Surgebinding fabrial. Or so I'm theorizing here.

 

Gemstones do choose which ability you use and how it is used. In Soulcasting, your gem type determines the target material you wish to make - the gem focuses Stormlight into making one of the ten Essences (or something more complicated when you add your will to further refine the nozzle). Brandon explicitly notes this in this WoB, in which he explicitly compares gems to metals:

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the Mistborn world, emerald and heliodor can be very similar—but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic—it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

(source)

 

If this doesn't sound exactly like the definition of a focus to you, then I'm not sure how to define it.

 

In Surgebinding fabrials, we should expect gemstones to control how the power is used. And we do see this! Soulcasting is the obvious example, but here's Regrowth:

 

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand.

 

Heliodor and topaz are associated with flesh and bone respectively. Which is exactly what the Regrowth fabrial - using the Growth Surge in other words - targets on Dalinar as it heals his broken flesh. (This part is speculation, but not, I think, unlikely.)

 

And again, we see this with modern fabrials using spren in gemstones. The Ars Arcanum explicitly notes that the gem type and shape is what determines things.

 

I hope that gets my thought process across more clearly, and I apologize if any of this seems condescending because I'm repeating myself.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Moogle

[Master_Moridin he/him]

I think the concept isn't confusing, just that Surgebinding is different in that it's the only system we've seen so far where your average magic user doesn't need a focus to help them use their powers.

 

And that disconnect is what's confusing for some people.

 

Roshar is weird.

[Ari he/him]

 

Again, I apologize if I sound like a broken record, because I think I'm not making my point well:

 

Focuses are not related to how you get your powers. An Allomancer is an Allomancer whether or not they have metal in their stomach. You can use Allomancy if you have the mists and no metals. If Scadrial ran out of metals and only had the mists, Allomancers would still exist and could use the mists to power their abilities.

 

But metals are a focus. They shape power into an effect. But an Allomancer does not need to use metals, they can use the mists and, instead of using metals as a focus, use their will instead.

 

Similarly, Surgebinders - because they're using pure Investiture like the mists Vin used - don't care about gems.  And, like with Allomancy, one can seemingly replace their will in Surgebinding and use a material focus - in other words, use a Surgebinding fabrial. Or so I'm theorizing here.

 

Gemstones do choose which ability you use and how it is used. In Soulcasting, your gem type determines the target material you wish to make - the gem focuses Stormlight into making one of the ten Essences (or something more complicated when you add your will to further refine the nozzle). Brandon explicitly notes this in this WoB, in which he explicitly compares gems to metals:

 

If this doesn't sound exactly like the definition of a focus to you, then I'm not sure how to define it.

 

In Surgebinding fabrials, we should expect gemstones to control how the power is used. And we do see this! Soulcasting is the obvious example, but here's Regrowth:

 

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand.

 

Heliodor and topaz are associated with flesh and bone respectively. Which is exactly what the Regrowth fabrial - using the Growth Surge in other words - targets on Dalinar as it heals his broken flesh. (This part is speculation, but not, I think, unlikely.)

 

And again, we see this with modern fabrials using spren in gemstones. The Ars Arcanum explicitly notes that the gem type and shape is what determines things.

 

I hope that gets my thought process across more clearly, and I apologize if any of this seems condescending because I'm repeating myself.

 

Oh, I understood the difference, I just didn't appreciate as obvious the parallels between Stormlight and the mists that you were making. Not condescending at all, and useful for clarifying each of our assumptions, thanks.

 

The thing that bothers me the most about this is why do you also (at least sometimes) need Stormlight for the soulcasting? If the gemstone is the focus, it should presumably allow you to access power directly from Honour and/or Cultivation without using the Stormlight. (otherwise Mistborn wouldn't be able to use allomancy inside) Or has Shallan been doing an end-run around the gem requirement entirely to date in using Stormlight? And wouldn't we see KRs in other orders using gemstones as opposed to stormlight for their powers?

 

It makes sense that Stormlight would be analogous to the mists, as both seem to follow the same pattern of investiture mimicking weather phenomenon, and thus you'd be able to simply use your own will in the place of a focus. Are you arguing that all KRs can simply use gems instead but they simply don't know how? It's hard to argue that directly from the text because we know as per Kaladin that you can breathe in Stormlight subtly enough to not be noticed as carrying it, so we need an actual viewpoint from a Soulcaster not using stormlight to be sure, which we don't have yet iirc. I'm not yet convinced, although you've certainly got an internally consistent structure there. At the very least, we would expect to see cracked sphere more often around radiants if gemstones are the focus, so I suppose we could look for that as confirming evidence.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Oh, I understood the difference, I just didn't appreciate as obvious the parallels between Stormlight and the mists that you were making. Not condescending at all, and useful for clarifying each of our assumptions, thanks.

 

The thing that bothers me the most about this is why do you also (at least sometimes) need Stormlight for the soulcasting? If the gemstone is the focus, it should presumably allow you to access power directly from Honour and/or Cultivation without using the Stormlight. (otherwise Mistborn wouldn't be able to use allomancy inside) Or has Shallan been doing an end-run around the gem requirement entirely to date in using Stormlight? And wouldn't we see KRs in other orders using gemstones as opposed to stormlight for their powers?

 

It makes sense that Stormlight would be analogous to the mists, as both seem to follow the same pattern of investiture mimicking weather phenomenon, and thus you'd be able to simply use your own will in the place of a focus. Are you arguing that all KRs can simply use gems instead but they simply don't know how? It's hard to argue that directly from the text because we know as per Kaladin that you can breathe in Stormlight subtly enough to not be noticed as carrying it, so we need an actual viewpoint from a Soulcaster not using stormlight to be sure, which we don't have yet iirc. I'm not yet convinced, although you've certainly got an internally consistent structure there. At the very least, we would expect to see cracked sphere more often around radiants if gemstones are the focus, so I suppose we could look for that as confirming evidence.

I think metals summoning investure directly from the Shard is a bit of a special case for Mistborn. After all commands don't suddenly make Breath and/or color appear, which still have to be added separately.

[Moogle]

The thing that bothers me the most about this is why do you also (at least sometimes) need Stormlight for the soulcasting? If the gemstone is the focus, it should presumably allow you to access power directly from Honour and/or Cultivation without using the Stormlight. (otherwise Mistborn wouldn't be able to use allomancy inside) Or has Shallan been doing an end-run around the gem requirement entirely to date in using Stormlight? And wouldn't we see KRs in other orders using gemstones as opposed to stormlight for their powers?

 

A focus doesn't necessarily draw power. I would define it as simply shaping power. In Awakening, Commands do not get Endowment's power from the Spiritual - they use what you have.

 

As to why Soulcasting requires a focus and will is not sufficient, I cannot say for sure. I suspect that the mental discipline required to Soulcast an object (ie. form a focus of will) is simply inhumanly difficult due to how you're changing the Spiritual. In Awakening, Commands are really really hard to learn unless you've expanded your mind by gaining a very high Heightening. So in this case, gemstones act as a crutch. Maybe you could learn to Soulcast without them.

 

It makes sense that Stormlight would be analogous to the mists, as both seem to follow the same pattern of investiture mimicking weather phenomenon, and thus you'd be able to simply use your own will in the place of a focus. Are you arguing that all KRs can simply use gems instead but they simply don't know how?

 

I guess I'm theorizing that Radiants could use gems to direct the power - for example, Lift could have maybe used a heliodor filled with Stormlight and used that to heal her thief friend rather than using her own will. But it's not like it required too much mental discipline from her, so why ever bother?

 

But I'm not sure if, for example, spren are providing the necessary will/focus to Surgebind. I suspect they aren't.

 

I think metals summoning investure directly from the Shard is a bit of a special case for Mistborn. After all commands don't suddenly make Breath and/or color appear, which still have to be added separately.

 

Technically, Aons in AonDor get power from elsewhere (the Cognitive), so Mistborn isn't unique. But I would agree Sel/Scadrial's systems of drawing Investiture from other Realms is probably rather rare.

[Stormgate he/him]

What if Surgebinders can burn gemstones like Mistborn burn metals? Would he only be able to burn sapphire?

[Yata he/him]

I am still quite convinced about the "Bond" as Focus on Roshar.

 

The Fabrial may be explained as "Fabrial magic= bond beetween right Polestone and Right Spren".

In the Navani's notebook for example, she call the Fabrial the (gem+spren ) alone and machine the whole tool.

 

In the end also the ability of gemstone to keep stormlight, may be explained through the bonds as focus. The Gemstone is probably the Physical material that contain an elegant series of specific bond between the atoms and the different polestone are just little variation of the same structure. In few words, the gemstone may be see as "pysichal bonds".