Most Satisfying Part?

[Oversleep]

Some things we should remember:

• Kaladin trained Reverse and Full Lashing between the books, we see one of the tries at the beginning of WoR in the chasms
• What he trained and mastered mainly during WoR was Basic Lashing, the only one which was used in fight with Szeth. So it wasn't "he mastered two Surges in a few days", like some people claim

While simply "using" the Surge could be mastered in few days, its application is what really counts:

• Basic Lashing lets you redirect gravity, all you have to do is to choose the direction and probably force. Nothing really complicated.
• But Lightweaving is terribly complex and while Shallan may be a master artist and have her Memories, we're talking about making illusions here. You have to take into account the surroundings when you cast it on the object. It have to be life-like. When you're using it on moving object, you have to make an animation of sorts with a few frames. Remember the illusion walking down the stars?
  Lightweaving is basically drawing, animating and programming an object in the game. On the fly.
  If you're casting it on yourself or another person, it gets worse. You have to take into account movements. All of them. People can make a lot of different movements and Lightweaver has to provide for that.
  Don't get me started on Lightweaving the face and facial expressions..
   

Edited January 2, 2016 by Oversleep

[IndigoAjah]

Why has this become Kaladin vs Shallan?

[natc]

Presumably because it is satisfying to discuss.

[maxal]

 

Some things we should remember:

• Kaladin trained Reverse and Full Lashing between the books, we see one of the tries at the beginning of WoR in the chasms
• What he trained and mastered mainly during WoR was Basic Lashing, the only one which was used in fight with Szeth. So it wasn't "he mastered two Surges in a few days", like some people claim

While simply "using" the Surge could be mastered in few days, its application is what really counts:

• Basic Lashing lets you redirect gravity, all you have to do is to choose the direction and probably force. Nothing really complicated.
• But Lightweaving is terribly complex and while Shallan may be a master artist and have her Memories, we're talking about making illusions here. You have to take into account the surroundings when you cast it on the object. It have to be life-like. When you're using it on moving object, you have to make an animation of sorts with a few frames. Remember the illusion walking down the stars?

  Lightweaving is basically drawing, animating and programming an object in the game. On the fly.

  If you're casting it on yourself or another person, it gets worse. You have to take into account movements. All of them. People can make a lot of different movements and Lightweaver has to provide for that.

  Don't get me started on Lightweaving the face and facial expressions..

   

 

 

In between the moment Kaladin swore the first ideal and the Szeth fight, there is about 2 months. Kaladin has had nothing but a few weeks to train which I do consider can be referred to as "days". Any skill anyone is able to master within a few weeks does not strike as overly complicated.

 

So either the Windrunners powers are extremely easy to master when compare to Lightweavers, but the fact remains Kaladin learned to master two surges in roughly the same time Shallan took to recall how to use a surge she has previously been a master at. She hasn't even begun working on her second surge.

 

You thus can't say Shallan learned her skill too quickly while dismissing Kaladin because in between the two, Kaladin is the one who has learned the most in the least time.

[DreamEternal]

Kaladin didn't master his surges. Compare Kaladin's simple use of lashings to the Szeth interludes in WoK. Although I do think the Lightweavers have less intuitive surges than the Windrunners.

[maxal]

Kaladin didn't master his surges. Compare Kaladin's simple use of lashings to the Szeth interludes in WoK. Although I do think the Lightweavers have less intuitive surges than the Windrunners.

 

Agree the term mastered was ill chosen. He still has uses to learn. However, his level of mastery was sufficient to defeat Szeth and appears superior to Shallan's own considering she is only capable of using one surge. I thus disagree Kaladin's progression is more "realistic" than Shallan: both we rather quick, though Shallan had the advantage of having used her Illumination surge before while Kaladin didn't. In that optic, in between the two, it is Kaladin I find the least plausible, though I would also argue both seemed to have come to their powers too quickly for my personal tastes. This being said, Brandon has a history of writing easy to manipulate magic systems, so it just be that.  

 

I'd also argue Illumination sounds intuitive enough for Shallan, but the question as to whether which surge is more "difficult" to use, I fear we would need input from the master himself.

[IndigoAjah]

Surely Shallan has leant much of her skills but suppressed them, so it's easier for her to relearn?

[maxal]

Surely Shallan has leant much of her skills but suppressed them, so it's easier for her to relearn?

 

I figured it must be like bicycle...

[galendo]

The king didn't pardon the deserters because she asked nicely, the king pardoned the deserters because the casual betrothed to Adolin Kholin and ward to Jasnah Kholin vouched for them stating her helpful they have been to her. She isn't just a random lost girl: she is an intriguing young lady who comes out of nowhere to lay a hand on the most eligible bachelor across Alethkar while being attached to the most inaccessible woman in Roshar. She isn't a beggar and nobody is fouled by her. However, it pays more to allow her to have her way and observe than to shush her away.

 

Historically, desertion has been a capital crime -- punishable by death. It is on Roshar, too, as the deserters are well aware.  Not to mention all the crimes that led them to desert in the first place.  The king pardoning them because they rescued someone would be like pardoning a bunch of murderers because they rescued a child from a burning building.  One good deed doesn't outweigh dozens of equally bad ones.

 

Also, note that the king doesn't bother to collect any evidence, or even take a deposition from anyone else.  He just immediately pardons them on the word of a lighteyes that he's never met before in his life.  One lighteyed stranger willing to lie for you...is that really all it takes to get out of a death sentence on Roshar?

 

So yeah, I found that part of the book incredibly difficult to swallow.  Her getting taken on as a super-overpaid scribe was nearly as difficult to believe.  Shallan got taken on because she was Shallan.  Any other character would have been tossed out on her ear.

 

 

Her Shardblade doesn't come out "just because": it came out through her bound to Pattern and simply because we didn't see how they first bonded does not mean she is just some "special snowflakes who got granted powers out of nothing". She is fabulous artist on her own able to create complex realities (lies) to protect her loved ones: what lie had she created prior to her mother's death which attracted Pattern? Surely Brandon had a reason to retain this information... I can't wait to find out more about it.

I guess I'd feel better about its absence if I were sure that we'll ever get an adequate description, but it seems like if there were any time to get a Shallan flashback to how she got her spren and Blade, it would have been in the Shallan flashback book.  I fear that we'll get an explanation at best, and more just telling me that Shallan was awesome and attracted a spren isn't what I want; I want the description of her being awesome, and I fear that I'll never get it.

 

Also, the "special snowflake" comment was directed toward the Lightweavers in general, not Shallan in particular, although she does get painted somewhat with the same brush.  More on this later, when I address The Honor Spren's post.

 

Kaladin? Kaladin goes to practice a few times down in a chasm and he suddenly is a master: I rarely see posters complain on how easy and convenient it was for him to learn his skill so ridiculously fast... Those critics are usually reserved to Shallan: she couldn't possibly go from a shy girl to a Radiant... except wait Kaladin did just the same in less time... Shallan still needs the support of drawing to call in her Illumination surge and can't do a thing with Transformation while Kaladin aptly uses both of his surges without any apparent effort.

 

I don't have any complaints about the speed at which any of the Radiants get their abilities.  For one, it's implied that the knowledge is coming to them somewhat supernaturally.  In the chasm scene where Kaladin finally learns how to walk on walls, he gets a brief glimpse of Shadesmar just before the knowledge of the Basic Lashing comes to him.  It's not just trial and error.

 

That being said, saying that Kaladin can use his abilities without any apparent effort seems a bit misleading.  He practices, a lot.  If you want to know why Shallan still "can't do a thing with Transformation", I'd suggest that it's because she's tried it all of twice since her first successful soulcast.  Now, she maybe has good reason for this: Jasnah made her promise not to try without her, and Soulcasting is presumably more difficult and dangerous than Lashings.  But saying that Kaladin's ability comes supernaturally fast when compared to Shallan who doesn't even practice seems a bit misleading.

 

Also it isn't true Shallan made no mistakes: men lost their life because she stupidly and naively ventured into the Ghostbloods lair without proper preparations. What other issues will arise due to her impulsive unplanned and badly conducted "infiltration"?

An unnamed carriage driver died.  His passing is lamented by Shallan all of once after the scene in question, if I remember right, and then he's promptly forgotten for the rest of the book.  Besides, my complaint wasn't that Shallan never made any mistakes in WoR, it was that she never went through a try-fail cycle.  If getting the innocent bystander killed had somehow impeded her acceptance into the Ghostbloods, forcing her to then try to get acceptance in a different fashion, that would have been a try-fail cycle.  But that's not what happened.

 

Regarding the Shallan discussion, someone mentioned that she "conveniently" doesn't have to speak any oaths, but that's just part of being a Lightweaver. They speak truths, and it makes what they say, more individual to themselves.

That is my complaint against the order in general.  There doesn't seem to be any failure state for the Lightweavers.  I can imagine what sorts of actions would cause Kalladin's bond to Syl to break; I can imagine what would cause Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather to break; I can imagine what would cause Lift's bond to break; and when we finally see a Skybreaker, I can imagine what would cause his/her bond to break.  I expect this will be true for most if not all of the remaining Orders.

 

But I can't imagine what would cause Shallan's bond to Pattern to break.

 

I mean, sure, if she breaks the "life before death" oath, that's one thing, but that's true to all the Orders.  We know she has to speak truths to advance, but it's not like she has to continue speaking truths; when she was struck mute as a child, her bond didn't break (it wasn't faring well at the time, admittedly, but it didn't break).  Nor is speaking lies a problem, either -- Pattern finds them perfectly acceptable.  So she doesn't have to keep speaking truths, and it doesn't matter if she speaks lies...Shallan sure seems to have won the jackpot in the "keeping your spren happy" department.

 

I suspect we are missing that part because some of the lies that drew pattern to her are going to be significant to the plot... by the end of WoR she is ready to face the truth about her mothers death... But i dont think shes anywhere close to accepting that the rosy picture of her family she paints for herself before her mother died is not accurate.

...

I think the next books will give us a more information as shallan digs into the secret societies in Roshar and discovers how Helaran and her mom were involved. Since her brothers are supposed to be coming, we and shallan should get ample opportunity to compare her memory of early life at the davar household to that of her brothers recollection.

 

This might be the case, but it seems like we're either going to need to have Shallan flashbacks in a non-Shallan flashback book, or we're going to be told what happened rather than seeing it for ourselves, and I wonder how justified not letting us see how Shallan gets her spren and her Blade can actually be.  I get that the Blade reveal might have been problematic, since it would have needed to occur after Kaladin gets his Blade and if it's not a fairly climactic scene then it might not belong in the "climax" part of the book, but then again Tien's death wasn't exactly climactic and yet it fit in fine with the climax of WoK, so Shallan's Blade scene probably could've been done here as well.

 

Basically, I wonder if keeping the scenes back for plot purposes is justified.  I guess we'll know when we finally learn what happened, but my inclination right now is leaning towards "no."

[maxal]

Historically, desertion has been a capital crime -- punishable by death. It is on Roshar, too, as the deserters are well aware.  Not to mention all the crimes that led them to desert in the first place.  The king pardoning them because they rescued someone would be like pardoning a bunch of murderers because they rescued a child from a burning building.  One good deed doesn't outweigh dozens of equally bad ones.

 

Also, note that the king doesn't bother to collect any evidence, or even take a deposition from anyone else.  He just immediately pardons them on the word of a lighteyes that he's never met before in his life.  One lighteyed stranger willing to lie for you...is that really all it takes to get out of a death sentence on Roshar?

 

So yeah, I found that part of the book incredibly difficult to swallow.  Her getting taken on as a super-overpaid scribe was nearly as difficult to believe.  Shallan got taken on because she was Shallan.  Any other character would have been tossed out on her ear.

 

I believe where we disagree is you consider Shallan to be an insignificant minion of a distant house nobody should listen to while I consider her to be attached to the most powerful people across Roshar. Her bond to Jasnah alone is enough to warranty her a certain ear, especially since she comes along with the intention to grab one of the most desirable bachelor in the country. It also is highlighted towards the end of that chapter the reason the Highprinces are suddenly interested in her is because of the casual.

 

Everyone wants to put their agent into the Kholin household. Shallan is prime material, hence they let her have her way, but I suspect it is only to better manipulate her.

 

As for Elhokar pardoning the deserters, yes we aren't told which crimes they did, true, but don't forget Dalinar pardoned 1000 bridgemen without asking for the reasons why they were send there to begin with. Of that 1000, only 20 something were involved in rescuing him and yet he offers pardon to everyone. I should also mention he does not check into Kaladin's background: with his shash brand, he could have very well been a murderer for all he knows, but he does not check. He does not think he needs to: he believes his actions alone speak for him.

 

Elhokar in essence is acting much better as he is taking the word from a woman his sister approved of consisting the faith of 5-10 men (I don't remember how many there were). Each of those men, Shallan can personally vouched for while Kaladin certainly couldn't vouched for the other bridge crew: he never even interfaced with them. Elhokar has no reason to doubt Shallan's word: Jasnah warding her is enough evidence he should listen to her, not to mention she comes forth with terrible news. 

 

So how is it Elhokar pardoning a few deserters worst than Dalinar forgiving and releasing a 1000 bridgemen? Kaladin put it rather simply: darkeyes are rarely executed, those found guilty of crime, they are being sold into slavery. It is impossible all the men who were there didn't deserve it: some were bond to have commit real crimes.

 

Any character would have been tossed out on her ear? Well... Kaladin sure doesn't. Should the king have sent him away like the peasant he is when he started to voice his opinion? Elhokar isn't treating Shallan any differently than he treated Kaladin: he listened. He listens to both because they come with high recommendation: his sister for Shallan, his uncle for Kaladin. 

 

I thus disagree Shallan got a free pass in this scene because she was Shallan. We shouldn't diminish the importance of her ties to Jasnah means.

 

 

I guess I'd feel better about its absence if I were sure that we'll ever get an adequate description, but it seems like if there were any time to get a Shallan flashback to how she got her spren and Blade, it would have been in the Shallan flashback book.  I fear that we'll get an explanation at best, and more just telling me that Shallan was awesome and attracted a spren isn't what I want; I want the description of her being awesome, and I fear that I'll never get it.

 

I honestly do not know why Brandon chose not to disclaim this information. I agree it appears as if it would have fitted within her flashbacks, but the author decided against it. He must have had a reason and while it isn't apparent to us, now, it likely will be once we get the full story. And we are getting it (there's a WoB where Brandon said we would find out, eventually), just not through flashbacks: these hardly are the only way to explore a character's past.

 

I have faith Brandon had his reasons to start the flashbacks right after Shallan murdering her mother. I am willing to wait and see on that one, but I understand why it is grating for other readers. In others words, I understand how you feel about it but, on the other hand, I am convinced we will find out and there is a reason behind this choice of narrative.

 

 

Also, the "special snowflake" comment was directed toward the Lightweavers in general, not Shallan in particular, although she does get painted somewhat with the same brush.  More on this later, when I address The Honor Spren's post.

 

I'd say the "special snowflake" has a negative connotation. I would avoid using it.

 

 

An unnamed carriage driver died.  His passing is lamented by Shallan all of once after the scene in question, if I remember right, and then he's promptly forgotten for the rest of the book.  Besides, my complaint wasn't that Shallan never made any mistakes in WoR, it was that she never went through a try-fail cycle.  If getting the innocent bystander killed had somehow impeded her acceptance into the Ghostbloods, forcing her to then try to get acceptance in a different fashion, that would have been a try-fail cycle.  But that's not what happened.

 

I think we may want to keep on reading for this one.. I sincerely doubt the Ghostblood plot is over and the ease at which she theorically infiltrated them is jinxed. I am convinced she is being manipulated while we are being led to believe, from her own POV, she had the upper hand.

 

I am convinced she didn't. She got in because they wanted her to get in, not because she marvelously fooled them.

 

I am willing to RAFO on the Ghostblood story arc as well.

 

I don't have any complaints about the speed at which any of the Radiants get their abilities.  For one, it's implied that the knowledge is coming to them somewhat supernaturally.  In the chasm scene where Kaladin finally learns how to walk on walls, he gets a brief glimpse of Shadesmar just before the knowledge of the Basic Lashing comes to him.  It's not just trial and error.

 

That being said, saying that Kaladin can use his abilities without any apparent effort seems a bit misleading.  He practices, a lot.  If you want to know why Shallan still "can't do a thing with Transformation", I'd suggest that it's because she's tried it all of twice since her first successful soulcast.  Now, she maybe has good reason for this: Jasnah made her promise not to try without her, and Soulcasting is presumably more difficult and dangerous than Lashings.  But saying that Kaladin's ability comes supernaturally fast when compared to Shallan who doesn't even practice seems a bit misleading.

 

I have had an issue with the speed at which Radiants, all Radiants, have gained their abilities, but if you ask me to choose, I'd say I am more irritated with Kaladin than Shallan. Shallan, I get it: she used to know this stuff, she merely is re-learning and she is far from where she used to be. Kaladin? Kaladin just tries to run on a wall, figures it out and boom, he is the near equivalent of Szeth who has had years of practice. Now of course, Szeth is much more creative in his uses of the surges, but still... A guy who has trained for a few weeks shouldn't be able to defeat a guy who has trained for years. That one is hard to swallow, for me.

 

This being said, I disagree Kaladin is practicing a lot. We see him practice once or twice, but need I mention we see Shallan doing just the same many more times? Each time she is in her room, practicing her Veil costume, she is practicing in the same way Kaladin is when he down in the chasm. Now, of course, simply because we didn't see it does not mean it didn't happen, so Kaladin likely practiced more than we saw, but I disagree with the comment stating Kaladin had a hard-core training while Shallan had none. If anything, both characters practiced the same amount of time, but Shallan had the advantage to have prior knowledge of surgebinding while Kaladin has none. Shallan also worked on one surge only while Kaladin managed to train with both.

 

If we are to look at their progression, surgebinding wise, Kaladin comes around as the least plausible: he mastered more, in less time, with less instructions. If we agree Kaladin's progression is natural and plausible, then we have to agree Shallan is as well.

 

 

That is my complaint against the order in general.  There doesn't seem to be any failure state for the Lightweavers.  I can imagine what sorts of actions would cause Kalladin's bond to Syl to break; I can imagine what would cause Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather to break; I can imagine what would cause Lift's bond to break; and when we finally see a Skybreaker, I can imagine what would cause his/her bond to break.  I expect this will be true for most if not all of the remaining Orders.

 

But I can't imagine what would cause Shallan's bond to Pattern to break.

 

I mean, sure, if she breaks the "life before death" oath, that's one thing, but that's true to all the Orders.  We know she has to speak truths to advance, but it's not like she has to continue speaking truths; when she was struck mute as a child, her bond didn't break (it wasn't faring well at the time, admittedly, but it didn't break).  Nor is speaking lies a problem, either -- Pattern finds them perfectly acceptable.  So she doesn't have to keep speaking truths, and it doesn't matter if she speaks lies...Shallan sure seems to have won the jackpot in the "keeping your spren happy" department.

 

I strongly disagree with this one: breaking the bond with Pattern appears much easier than breaking the bond with Syl. Kaladin had to agree to kill a man who didn't deserved death simply because he hated him to destroy the bond: Shallan simply had to lie to herself, to refuse to face reality.

 

Lightweavers may not swear oaths, but they have to stay true, they can't lie to themselves, they have to deal with everything as it comes, they can't hide. Shallan may be allowed to kill, but she can't delude herself with this fact.

 

All Kaladin has to do is stay true to his word and not kill people just because he is angry at them.

 

Besides, let's not forget Shallan practically broke her bond for 6 years as she couldn't face the truth surrounding her family.... Kaladin does not have this kind of pressure, so I disagree Lightweaver are the Disney order. If you ask me, I'd say Edgedancers likely are the Disney order....

 

 

This might be the case, but it seems like we're either going to need to have Shallan flashbacks in a non-Shallan flashback book, or we're going to be told what happened rather than seeing it for ourselves, and I wonder how justified not letting us see how Shallan gets her spren and her Blade can actually be.  I get that the Blade reveal might have been problematic, since it would have needed to occur after Kaladin gets his Blade and if it's not a fairly climactic scene then it might not belong in the "climax" part of the book, but then again Tien's death wasn't exactly climactic and yet it fit in fine with the climax of WoK, so Shallan's Blade scene probably could've been done here as well.

 

Basically, I wonder if keeping the scenes back for plot purposes is justified.  I guess we'll know when we finally learn what happened, but my inclination right now is leaning towards "no."

 

As I said earlier, flashbacks aren't the only way to explore a character's past and if we look closely, many characters aren't getting those either. Does it mean we aren't going to get any information related to their background? I sincerely hope not. 

 

There are many ways to tell a story, I will not disagree with you on this especially since I keep advocating Kaladin's POV isn't the only way the story can be told. So yes, there probably was a way to insert Shallan bounding Pattern within the ending climax and perhaps it would have made a very good story, but Brandon chose not to. Why? I sincerely can't pass judgment until I have read the scene in question.

 

For instance, why doesn't Brandon tell us if Ym was a Truthwatcher or an Edgedancer? Ym is dead. How relevant can this information be? Why retain it? I cannot for the life of me figure out why, but I assume there must be some element within his flashbacks which would end up being spoiler-y if we were to know. He prefers us guessing, but no doubt it will be come clearer.

 

I suspect Shallan bonding Pattern contains similar spoilers. Which ones? I have no idea, but perhaps the scene gives us too many insights on future plot lines he'd rather we read in our own time. Or it could be you are right and the alternate story telling you suggest would have worked better. It is entirely possible Brandon made the wrong choice here, but I cannot conclude either way until I read the missing scene. 

 

For my part, I am ready to RAFO on this one. Not knowing does not bother me all too much as I can guess easily enough.

Edited January 4, 2016 by maxal

[Stormgate]

With the deal with the king randomly pardoning the deserters, remember that Elhokar is not anyone's first choice for king, unless they want a puppet.

[maxal]

With the deal with the king randomly pardoning the deserters, remember that Elhokar is not anyone's first choice for king, unless they want a puppet.

 

How is Elhokar more randomly pardoning the deserters than Dalinar freeing the bridgemen? These are people who were sent into slavery for a reason while the deserters may simply be people who got tired with the bloodbath, people who got traumatized with it, who couldn't carry on with it: nothing says they were criminals, but the bridgemen...  Seriously do we really believes there are no real criminals within that 1000?

 

So again, how is Elhokar behaving worst than Dalinar here?

 

I am not Elhokar greatest fan, but I feel we must be fair here. He is not completely incompetent and neither is Dalinar always right.

[galendo]

How is Elhokar more randomly pardoning the deserters than Dalinar freeing the bridgemen? These are people who were sent into slavery for a reason while the deserters may simply be people who got tired with the bloodbath, people who got traumatized with it, who couldn't carry on with it: nothing says they were criminals, but the bridgemen...  Seriously do we really believes there are no real criminals within that 1000?

 

So again, how is Elhokar behaving worst than Dalinar here?

 

I am not Elhokar greatest fan, but I feel we must be fair here. He is not completely incompetent and neither is Dalinar always right.

 

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree with how reasonable it is for Elhokar to pardon the deserters at Shallan's request.  I'd say the main difference between what Elhokar did and what Dalinar did, though, is that the deserters are known to be guilty of capital crimes, while the bridgemen aren't known to be guilty of much of anything.  Sure, some of them are probably guilty of terrible crimes, but Sadeas made people bridgemen for pretty much any reason at all, and Dalinar knows that.

 

Here's a real-life parallel.  Some years ago, it was found that one of the people working in a evidence-processing lab was falsifying results.  Evidence from her lab was used to convict tens of thousands of people, and when it was found out that the results weren't reliable...well, even now the issue hasn't been put to rest, but some speculated (and the ACLU sued to request) that they would need to release every prisoner whose trial had been contaminated in this fashion.  Now, some number of those prisoners -- perhaps even most of them -- were surely guilty of the crimes they had been charged with.  But because many of them weren't, the "global remedy" of releasing all of them was seriously considered.  It hasn't happened (yet, at least), but it was a reasonable thing to consider.  This, I feel, is what Dalinar did.

 

Elhokar pardoning the deserters, though, is more akin to a Presidential pardon.  These do occur with some frequency (usually a few hundred per president, and usually in their second term), but they're usually more considered than just "this one person I've never met said that all these people are actually really nice and deserve pardon".  Not always, of course: Bill Clinton famously pardoned his brother for cocaine possession, and George W. Bush pardoned his assistant Scooter Libby for perjury; but the number of people pardoned for capital crimes is much smaller, and, as I mentioned, almost always much more considered.  Elhokar doing the same on the word of someone he never met...well, it just doesn't seem all that believable to me.

 

Any character would have been tossed out on her ear? Well... Kaladin sure doesn't. Should the king have sent him away like the peasant he is when he started to voice his opinion? Elhokar isn't treating Shallan any differently than he treated Kaladin: he listened. He listens to both because they come with high recommendation: his sister for Shallan, his uncle for Kaladin. 

 

I thus disagree Shallan got a free pass in this scene because she was Shallan. We shouldn't diminish the importance of her ties to Jasnah means.

 

If I recall correctly Elhokar (or perhaps it's Adolin) doesn't want Kaladin at their meetings at first and only goes along with it because Dalinar supports him. And even if you think it's in character that Ehlokar should have listened to her...well, it was still very, very lucky for her that a highprince she picked almost at random, because he was the only one aloof from the two factions, would have chosen to go along with her lies about their blood relation(!) and her suggested salary. I mean, he didn't even modify it with an "I believe it was emerald chips, my dear" or something like that, which would have been much more in character.

 

I honestly do not know why Brandon chose not to disclaim this information. I agree it appears as if it would have fitted within her flashbacks, but the author decided against it. He must have had a reason and while it isn't apparent to us, now, it likely will be once we get the full story. And we are getting it (there's a WoB where Brandon said we would find out, eventually), just not through flashbacks: these hardly are the only way to explore a character's past.

 

I have faith Brandon had his reasons to start the flashbacks right after Shallan murdering her mother. I am willing to wait and see on that one, but I understand why it is grating for other readers. In others words, I understand how you feel about it but, on the other hand, I am convinced we will find out and there is a reason behind this choice of narrative.

 

I think we may want to keep on reading for this one.. I sincerely doubt the Ghostblood plot is over and the ease at which she theorically infiltrated them is jinxed. I am convinced she is being manipulated while we are being led to believe, from her own POV, she had the upper hand.

I'm kind of with you here, but I feel somewhat frustrated.  One of my main frustrations is that it seems that Shallan, at least in book 2, can't fail at literally anything (well, she does once fail to light a fire, I guess).  I can't even see how she could possibly fail in her bond to Pattern, because I never saw what attracted Pattern to her in the first place.  Your idea that lying to herself would break their bond is interesting but not supported anywhere in the book that I'm aware of.  Actually, I'm pretty certain that she spends most of the book lying to herself.  The "ten heartbeats" thing is the first that comes to mind, but there were others.

 

I am convinced she didn't. She got in because they wanted her to get in, not because she marvelously fooled them.

 

I am willing to RAFO on the Ghostblood story arc as well.

 

Well, Mraize wanted her in, sure.  I'm pretty certain that at least some of the others were seriously trying to kill her.

 

I have had an issue with the speed at which Radiants, all Radiants, have gained their abilities, but if you ask me to choose, I'd say I am more irritated with Kaladin than Shallan. Shallan, I get it: she used to know this stuff, she merely is re-learning and she is far from where she used to be. Kaladin? Kaladin just tries to run on a wall, figures it out and boom, he is the near equivalent of Szeth who has had years of practice. Now of course, Szeth is much more creative in his uses of the surges, but still... A guy who has trained for a few weeks shouldn't be able to defeat a guy who has trained for years. That one is hard to swallow, for me.

 

This being said, I disagree Kaladin is practicing a lot. We see him practice once or twice, but need I mention we see Shallan doing just the same many more times? Each time she is in her room, practicing her Veil costume, she is practicing in the same way Kaladin is when he down in the chasm. Now, of course, simply because we didn't see it does not mean it didn't happen, so Kaladin likely practiced more than we saw, but I disagree with the comment stating Kaladin had a hard-core training while Shallan had none. If anything, both characters practiced the same amount of time, but Shallan had the advantage to have prior knowledge of surgebinding while Kaladin has none. Shallan also worked on one surge only while Kaladin managed to train with both.

 

If we are to look at their progression, surgebinding wise, Kaladin comes around as the least plausible: he mastered more, in less time, with less instructions. If we agree Kaladin's progression is natural and plausible, then we have to agree Shallan is as well.

 

Well, I find both Kaladin's and Shallan's progress to be perfectly plausible, so we can agree here, sort of.  I think that Kaladin practices a lot more than we actually see; we might only see four-ish scenes of him practicing, but I think if we see that many it can be safely assumed that there's a lot more we don't see.

 

As for how Kaladin beats Szeth: remember that in straight combat (no Stormlight, preferred weapon), Kaladin is probably advantaged.  In Stormlight efficiency, Kaladin is advantaged.  In usefulness of weapon, Kaladin is advantaged (Syl can become a sword, a spear, a shield...Szeth just has a sword).

 

The only advantage Szeth has is his familiarity with lashings.  Now, I'm not about to discount this, and if the fight had taken place on the ground rather than in the air, Szeth might well have won.  But remember that all of Szeth's experience and practice is in fighting grounded opponents.  He never fought anyone in the air; he probably never even considered the possibility of an aerial opponent.  Whereas Kaladin knew he would be fighting a foe who could fly from the beginning and trained with that in mind.  Put another way: Szeth trained to beat Shardbearers, but Kaladin trained to beat Szeth.

[Slaybalj]

See, i dont see shallan picking sebarial random at all... Sure, she picked him because he was the only highprince not entering the political fray, but she recognizes that his outrageous rudeness is how he keeps himself out of it. it appears that even jasnah never bothered to look past it. She also recognizes that his comments are meant to discomfit the others and put them off balance.....

By inviting herself into his entourage she is providing an opportunity to muck with all the other highprinces, by quoting an exorbitiant salary she is indicating to him that she is, in fact, a very valuable commodity, by claiming a family relation she is probably playing on alethi social conventions and since probably everyone knows its a lie, she is also indicating to everyone in the room that she cannot be lured away to another camp, and lets not forget..... In the carriage ride back, sebarial comments that she appeared much younger during the meeting... She was almost certainly using lightweaving to make herself look like someone who desperately needed protection from all the whitespines in the room.

And in the carriage ride back, sebarial does mention wanting to renegotiate her salary... Perhaps he didnt want to seem like a cheapskate during the meeting?

She knows she is taking a big risk, but all her other options are worse and,in my opinion, shallan is enormously good at reading people.... Which makes sense because the safety of everyone back at the davar manor was almost directly related to how well she could judge her dad's moods and probable reactions.

[maxal]

 

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree with how reasonable it is for Elhokar to pardon the deserters at Shallan's request.  I'd say the main difference between what Elhokar did and what Dalinar did, though, is that the deserters are known to be guilty of capital crimes, while the bridgemen aren't known to be guilty of much of anything.  Sure, some of them are probably guilty of terrible crimes, but Sadeas made people bridgemen for pretty much any reason at all, and Dalinar knows that.

 

There is no textual evidence the bridgemen were all poor innocent people who were slighted by the evil lighteyes. The people who got sent to the bridge crews would have likely been sent to slavery into another camp for their crimes, the difference is Sadeas uses his slaves as bridge runners. Sadeas also bought many slaves which did not originate from his camp: he didn't put them into slavery, but he bought them for bridge running purposes.

 

Even some of Bridge 4 appear dubious at best... We just don't know, it is thus wrong to assume nobody deserved to be sent there.

 

We have no textual evidence either the deserters were criminals. We do know Gaz likely run away due to his debt: is it a crime to be indebted? We don't know how he contracted it, perhaps he was a gambler, but perhaps he was buying expensive medicine for a loved one. We don't know, we can't presume he did wrong. I don't recall what we know of Vatah, so I'll leave it there, but we know nothing of the other guys. 

 

So why is it less reasonable for Elhokar to pardon the deserters based on Shallan's words (we also do not know if he didn't check their background) than Dalinar doing the same thing for the bridgemen (we know he didn't check for each man's individual background)?

 

Both Elhokar and Dalinar seem to agree on one thing: people deserve a second chance providing someone they trust is willing to vouch for them (Shallan for the deserter, Kaladin for the bridgemen). Remember Elhokar is the one who pleaded for leniency for Roshone: he has a soft streak when it comes to criminals, he seems to believe in the idea of rehabilitation. However, I am convinced shall one of those deserters or one of those bridgemen shall be found guilty of anything: he'll get prosecute immediately.

 

If we agree Dalinar is right to listen to Kaladin, whom he does not know and whom has a shash mark, then Elhokar is right to listen to his sister's ward. In between the two, if you ask me, based on the limited knowledge both Elhokar and Dalinar had of the persons at the time, Shallan is the one I would be more prompt to listen. Kaladin, I'd be wary of Kaladin. I'd reward him for his actions, but I'd also keep an eye on Kaladin.

 

 

 

If I recall correctly Elhokar (or perhaps it's Adolin) doesn't want Kaladin at their meetings at first and only goes along with it because Dalinar supports him. And even if you think it's in character that Ehlokar should have listened to her...well, it was still very, very lucky for her that a highprince she picked almost at random, because he was the only one aloof from the two factions, would have chosen to go along with her lies about their blood relation(!) and her suggested salary. I mean, he didn't even modify it with an "I believe it was emerald chips, my dear" or something like that, which would have been much more in character.

 

That's Adolin, not Elhokar. Adolin doesn't trust Kaladin because he does not know the man and he feels there is something off about him. He considers his mere crew should not have been able to rescue them which makes him think there is something else in play. Turns out Adolin is right, but also wrong to distrust Kaladin.

 

Elhokar is just happy to hear Kaladin's thoughts. He listens the first time over and asks who this man is as he speaks clearly and explains his ideas well, a sharp contrast from Dalinar who assumes everyone either read his thoughts or don't need to truly understand.

 

As for Shallan, she was lightweaving herself at the time, making her appear as more than she was: had she appear as she was, it likely would have failed. She rightly spot Sebrarial as the most likely to enter a gamble, he kept trying to upset the others, so she gave him the opportunity to add another card to his game. It could have backfired, she did gamble, but she guessed right. It was nothing of her doing, she just picked someone, hardly an accomplishment. As for her salary, Sebrarial is not going bankrupt because of it and he did try to lower it: she convinced him to keep it as is by stating she intended to earn her keep and she did. She worked hard for Sebrarial, appeal to see he has practically no scribe.

 

You must again not underestimate how manipulative the highprinces are... Sebrarial does think he is gaining something by allowing her lie to continue. It was a gamble.

 

 

 

I'm kind of with you here, but I feel somewhat frustrated.  One of my main frustrations is that it seems that Shallan, at least in book 2, can't fail at literally anything (well, she does once fail to light a fire, I guess).  I can't even see how she could possibly fail in her bond to Pattern, because I never saw what attracted Pattern to her in the first place.  Your idea that lying to herself would break their bond is interesting but not supported anywhere in the book that I'm aware of.  Actually, I'm pretty certain that she spends most of the book lying to herself.  The "ten heartbeats" thing is the first that comes to mind, but there were others.

 

This is not my idea, but canon. There is textual evidence as well as several WoB which confirms Shallan indeed regressed after she killer her mother. She denied the existence of Pattern and it is only because she retained the slightest memory of him the bond didn't completely severe itself. Brandon does explain it in a WoB. As soon as lighweaver starts to lie to themselves, they regress. 

 

As for the 10 heartbeats, it is tied to her last lie. Shallan has to be true to herself, the truer she is, the more she progressed. The last truth likely put her back to where she was prior to murdering her mother and that truth is linked to Pattern being a Shardblade, hence the heartbeats.

 

As for lies, she can lie, to others, as long as she acknowledge these are lies, but she can't lie as to who she is.

 

Considering how young she was and considering the ordeal she has been through, the fact she did manage not to completely destroy the bond is admirable. In comparison, all Kaladin had to do to keep his bond intact is not to murder Elhokar... which is rather easy. Don't kill people just because you hate them, don't break your word (or perhaps don't give out your word if you can't keep it): I consider these oaths to be easier maintained then be ready to face the hardest truth there is without backing down.

 

 

Well, Mraize wanted her in, sure.  I'm pretty certain that at least some of the others were seriously trying to kill her.

 

No they weren't. If they were, she'd be dead. They try to scare her some by pretending to kill her, but I am convinced had they truly wanted her out, she wouldn't have been able to do much to protect herself. 

 

She succeeded not because she is some Mary-Sue who can't fail, but because Mraize wanted her to. He gave her what she wanted: her family's safety, but how safe are her brothers when Mraize is the one vouching for them? She basically traded her family safety for her allegiance to a dubious secret society who's goal is still unknown but we can guess she will be asked to play a double agent. She would have been better of telling the truth to the Kholins... At least they would have secured her family without asking anything in return.

 

Shallan's story arc isn't over and while she has had an apparent string of successes I am personally waiting to see them blow to her face. Brandon loves to play with our perception: the fact Shallan comes across as some happy-go-lucky character who can't do wrong is intended, but don't be fouled. She is bond to mess-up. She has check all of her ties, all of the lose ends: she found a city. That's it. 

 

 

Well, I find both Kaladin's and Shallan's progress to be perfectly plausible, so we can agree here, sort of.  I think that Kaladin practices a lot more than we actually see; we might only see four-ish scenes of him practicing, but I think if we see that many it can be safely assumed that there's a lot more we don't see.

 

Fair enough. I disagree with people stating Kaladin is plausible while Shallan isn't. If you find both of them plausible, then we are in agreement, not about the plausibility because I personally need more data on that, but about the relation between both character and their training.

 

I do agree Kaladin likely trained more than we saw, but the same is true for Shallan as well.

 

 

As for how Kaladin beats Szeth: remember that in straight combat (no Stormlight, preferred weapon), Kaladin is probably advantaged.  In Stormlight efficiency, Kaladin is advantaged.  In usefulness of weapon, Kaladin is advantaged (Syl can become a sword, a spear, a shield...Szeth just has a sword).

 

The only advantage Szeth has is his familiarity with lashings.  Now, I'm not about to discount this, and if the fight had taken place on the ground rather than in the air, Szeth might well have won.  But remember that all of Szeth's experience and practice is in fighting grounded opponents.  He never fought anyone in the air; he probably never even considered the possibility of an aerial opponent.  Whereas Kaladin knew he would be fighting a foe who could fly from the beginning and trained with that in mind.  Put another way: Szeth trained to beat Shardbearers, but Kaladin trained to beat Szeth.

 

We don't know that, we don't know if Kaladin is a better fighter than Szeth, no stormlight. We have no way to assess each character's skill-set taken individually and without the support of stormlight. We don't even know how good of a fighter Kaladin still is without it.

 

Stormlight efficiency does not strike me as such a huge advantage: it simply means Szeth will need more to do the same. 

 

The only advantage Kaladin truly had was Syl's changing form and Szeth mental instability, but still, we have Szeth who comments on Kaladin being able to block his blow with a sword and fend for himself... Kaladin has so little training with a sword, even blocking a blow should have been practically impossible. That part was unrealistic as the one time we see Kaladin yield a sword, he was basically worst than Renarin. Renarin, I suspect, knows his forms even if he can't use them in a combat situation. Had Kaladin started up with a spear, I would have thought differently, but a sword? Making Kaladin fight with a sword was not realistic, to me.

 

I don't think winning the fight was unrealistic, it is that one comment on Kaladin's ability with the sword which I dispute.

[Slaybalj]

while not particularly satisfying, the following passage gives me chills  ( and is also relevant to the current discussion of shallan)

 

"Here's the thing, the lies we tell, the dreams we create, they're not real.  We can't let them be real.  This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn."  She turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone.  "When a good con woman dies, it's usually because she starts believing her own lies.  She finds something good and wants it to continue.  She keeps it going, thinking she can juggle it.  One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then..." 

 

Tyn dropped the cup. It hit the ground, the wine splashing bloodred across the tent floor and Tyn's rug.

 

 

Shallan isn't a con woman the way Tyn thinks she is, but she is still a con woman, and the lies Shallan tells ARE ones she believes can be real....

 

She's let Dalinar know she's a radiant, but she's letting him believe her radiant-mission (so to speak) is to complete that which Jasnah started.  She hasn't told him she's infiltrating secret societies and he may not have even realized her illusions are perfect for spywork.  She's going to try to get deeper into the Ghostbloods without actually giving them useful information  ( without even knowing what their goals are).  She is trying to keep Adolin while avoiding letting him know about her personal family history (which is going to be even more difficult when her brothers show up with their myriad of problems).  She'll be trying to keep her brothers from imploding as always ( and I bet at least one of them will be manipulated by the ghostbloods).  And probably she's going to be trying to continue Jasnah's work at least until Jasnah herself shows up.

 

She's juggling a lot of balls right now and when they start to fall, noone is going to trust her.

[Garfield]

 

The only advantage Kaladin truly had was Syl's changing form and Szeth mental instability, but still, we have Szeth who comments on Kaladin being able to block his blow with a sword and fend for himself...

 

 

 

Nah, Szeth isn't a great swordsmaster himself. Can't be. As a regular Shinovar citizen he was not allowed to fight/train for fighting and once he had become truthless I doubt that he had a swordmaster. He beat men in shardplate by chucking big rocks at them until their armour was crushed and by lashing people to the ceiling until the light ran out and they fell to their death. He also used his height advantage by being airborn.

 

And you have to consider, that a freaking 2 meter two handed sword handles a lot like a pole weapon, at least part of his pole weapon training is useful for him in terms of his shardblade fencing, particularly the reflexes (parrying is a lot about automated reflexes, you see the thing coming and without thinking you hold something in the way so it doesn't hit you, that's something intense spear training will prepare you for, because the trick is the automated reflex, not the type of longish object you hold in the way). Actually, in an airborn shard duel, the spear is really a good weapon, because the longer reach compared to a sword means you can hit the opponnent while he can not hit you. Also a shard-spear will not break, so you can parry with it as long as you watch your fingers (the lack of a crossguard makes it dangerous, but then, the deadspren shardblades were not used in man to man combat where you need a crossguard, but to slaughter big monsters, so probably a lot of them do not have one)

 

 

 

 

 

The most satisfying parts? Where Shallan and Adolin have that romantic dinner, he starts rambling about his military accomplishments and she just asks him what happens when he an urgent need while he is on the battlefield. That scene had me rolling on the floor.

 

When Elhokar was put in his place by that Herdazian matron. My goodness, the immature whining of that guy had been getting on my nerves the entire book, and the FINALLY....

 

When Adolin killed Sadeas. Yeah, will probably have repercussions, but was well worth it. One irresponsible, egomaniac a-hole less on that continent.

 

Of course, Kaladin rescuing the Kholins at the battle of the tower.

 

Jasnah Kholin, for her sheer awesomeness, that she dares to openly be an atheist, defying the ridiculous Vorin religious beliefs.

[Oversleep]

As for the bond-breaking, never lying to yourself is pretty hard, even more for people who rely on manipulation and lies, like Lightweavers.

"I will start learning tomorrow" "Just one more episode" "This year I will start exercising" "He deserved that, it's not my fault" et cetera. While none of this lies seem serious enough to break the bond, but "there is always another lie" ~Kelsier the Lightweaver. The amount of it may be dangerous, and those aren't even those really serious lies - those which we tell ourselves about ourselves.
It hurts when somebody tells you the blunt, ugly truth about yourself, right? Now try to see that truth by yourself and accept it. You have to realise what person you really are and that's not simple nor pleasant.

[maxal]

Just a small notice to advice people I will now be leaving this particular discussion. As some of you may already know, I have no interest in partaking within discussions where downvotes are tolerated or accepted for posts which weren't meant to be either aggressive nor insulting.

 

Since some individuals decided this is how they wanted to discuss, then I have nothing left to add. I have absolutely no desire to discuss with people who sees the downvote option as a way to move their opinion forward.

 

Anyone who wishes to discuss additional points with myself can PM me. I always answer to my PM.

[AerionBFII]

Szeth is a great Swordsman. Stormlight doesn't give you skill just enhances you,

the skill is all Szeths he is trained in a variety of Martial Arts, i find it hard to believe he didn't train with a sword.

When he fought Kal he wasn't in his sane mind, he had had everything he new rocked, he couldn't heal from Shardblade wounds,

his ability to use Stormlight was less proficient than Kaladins, his weapon wasn't cognizant and couldn't change into any form of weapon.

 

I didn't mind Shallan growing as a character i like her but shes not in my top 5 SA Character i especially enjoyed seeing the Ghostblood chapters but she seemed rather inconsistent to me. One minute she's elaborating on how she hates confrontation, then slowly throttles the life out of her father but is scared to ask the captain to stop the ship or discovering she is an adrenaline junky, disposing of bones...Scared of Iyatil and calls a Chasmfiend chasing her cute..

 

 

***Edit******Also Best parts *****

Hoid Schooling Amaram.

Dalinar Schooling Amaram

Adolin and Kal become Friends

+ Szeth PWNING EVERYBODY.

Edited January 6, 2016 by WEZ313

[Garfield]

Szeth is a great Swordsman. Stormlight doesn't give you skill just enhances you,

the skill is all Szeths he is trained in a variety of Martial Arts,

 

 

The Shinovar people are not allowed to use weapons. And once he was Truthless I highly doubt that he trained with a Shardblade fencing master.

[Pathfinder]

The Shinovar people are not allowed to use weapons. And once he was Truthless I highly doubt that he trained with a Shardblade fencing master.

Then why did Szeth reference numerous fighting styles that he is trained in through out WoK and WoR that enable him to effortlessly kill his foes?

Edited January 6, 2016 by Pathfinder

[natc]

Ah, but were many of them not based on grappling/unarmed combat? I mainly recall his references to fighting styles he has learned being brought up as assisting him in actually getting a full lashing on someone, not to do with his blade. He won't be kicked out until he touches an actual weapon or maybe kills someone, I reckon, and most of his deadliness was from his lashings.

In fact he relies heavily on his lashings in combat while spear technique is one of Kaladin's heavily advertised good points.

Edited January 6, 2016 by natc

[Pathfinder]

But those forms are still used for combat to train a warrior. Also although it is a logical leap, i highly doubt Szeth could pick up an honorblade, and know how to use it to lash and also use accurate terminology for them without any training. 

[natc]

It's not like they have no warriors at all, they're not completely ignorant to fighting or culturally isolated. But the chances of them having any shardbearers with that particular taboo in effect are very slim. You can at least train in unarmed combat discreetly and pull the self defense excuse. Szeth's exile didn't even involve weapons at all. Just blasphemy.

I'm sure the shamannate knows more about surgebinding than they publicly let on if they've had custody of 8-9 honorblades for upwards to a couple thousand years. Clearly the Ars Arcanum author found these millenia old terms without too much trouble.

Kaladin figures out how to activate half of his powers by complete accident, so clearly performing surgebinding itself isn't difficult. Skill is a different matter, but Szeth had way longer to practice.

Windrunner powers inherently don't seem to need much fine control at all compared to lightweaving; you can get satisfactory results with basic lashings just feeling the general directions, and the others are just "touch the thing and think about it". The skill burden is mostly on choosing the moment of application for best effect, not actually controlling the powers.