Just finished WOR. mind blown...and was wondering...

[Oversleep]

All boils down to simple choice:

• to let Szeth live
• to kill Szeth

If he decides to spare him, then he shouldn't just let him drop into highstorms to die. And that's what he basically did.
Yeah, sure, Syl was yelling at him about the Blade, but it's not like it will walk away on its own, right? Kaladin definitely could sacrifice a moment to Lash Szeth to the sky, so he wouldn't collide with the highstorm and then retrieve Honorblade.
If he decided to kill him, well, that's what happened in the previous version.

Kaladin couldn't be sure that Szeth is no longer a danger, therefore he should kill him, not let him drop into a nearest source of Stormlight!
Some may say that Syl told him that Szeth lost Surgebinding. Well, then Szeth is powerless and one, letting him fall into highstorm means killing him, second, he no longer is a threat so no need to kill him. Just Lash him up and then, after retrieving the Blade, take him to Dalinar. Szeth would be a valuable source of information and king could judge him and pass sentence

[Blightsong]

All boils down to simple choice:

• to let Szeth live
• to kill Szeth

If he decides to spare him, then he shouldn't just let him drop into highstorms to die. And that's what he basically did.

Yeah, sure, Syl was yelling at him about the Blade, but it's not like it will walk away on its own, right? Kaladin definitely could sacrifice a moment to Lash Szeth to the sky, so he wouldn't collide with the highstorm and then retrieve Honorblade.

If he decided to kill him, well, that's what happened in the previous version.

Kaladin couldn't be sure that Szeth is no longer a danger, therefore he should kill him, not let him drop into a nearest source of Stormlight!

Some may say that Syl told him that Szeth lost Surgebinding. Well, then Szeth is powerless and one, letting him fall into highstorm means killing him, second, he no longer is a threat so no need to kill him. Just Lash him up and then, after retrieving the Blade, take him to Dalinar. Szeth would be a valuable source of information and king could judge him and pass sentence

By the time Szeth dropped, he had no stormlight and Kal was then told that he had unbonded his blade. He was NO danger, in fact he was a cripple. You also realize that they were in a hurricane that could lift up whole swaths of land right? Szeth would have been falling faster than the blade, and by the time Kaladin had time to get it Szeth was lost into the storm, he had no time, it was one or the other. Kaladin did not save Szeth for the mercy of it. He wanted Szeth to have to live with what he had done, this is what Brandon said when he made the changes. This, however, was not worth it to Kal if punishing Szeth woukd mean losing a priceless relic, which is a good choice IMO. I don't see a problem...

[Edgedancer]

By the time Szeth dropped, he had no stormlight and Kal was then told that he had unbonded his blade. He was NO danger, in fact he was a cripple. You also realize that they were in a hurricane that could lift up whole swaths of land right? Szeth would have been falling faster than the blade, and by the time Kaladin had time to get it Szeth was lost into the storm, he had no time, it was one or the other. Kaladin did not save Szeth for the mercy of it. He wanted Szeth to have to live with what he had done, this is what Brandon said when he made the changes. This, however, was not worth it to Kal if punishing Szeth woukd mean losing a priceless relic, which is a good choice IMO. I don't see a problem...

You are atributing a lot of motives here that are pretty much wrong. The text outright says that Kaladin spared Szeth for pity (and the undefined urge of the author taking control) and Brandon never said anything about having Szeth live with his guilt either but both what he considered to be the theme and meta reasons of too many characters coming back to life.

 

 

In that instant, for reasons he could not have articulated—pity, perhaps?— Kaladin diverted his blow, driving the Blade through Szeth’s wrist.

 

There was something I wanted to do, and took a stab at it in the text, then backed off because I couldn’t make it work. It was important to me that Kaladin refuse to kill Szeth at the end. Kaladin is about protection, not vengeance, and once he realized that Szeth really just wanted to be killed, I wanted Kaladin to hesitate.

http://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/

 

I woud be fine having him do it, though I think killing a foe who has given up was against this thematic plot. But what pushed me over the edge to change was the sense that I was pulling too many fast ones on the reader with people coming back to life. I wanted it clear to readers that Szeth was not dead, so this scene wasn't a fake out, which would weaken Jasnah's arrival later.

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cr49co2?context=3

Edited December 13, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Blightsong]

You are atributing a lot of motives here that are pretty much wrong. The text outright says that Kaladin spared Szeth for pity (and the undefined urge of the author taking control) and Brandon never said anything about having Szeth live with his guilt either but both what he considered to be the theme and meta reasons of too many characters coming back to life.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cr49co2?context=3

I totally remembered that wrong, thanks for sources. I think my arguement still works however.

Kaladin wanted to save Szeth out of pity, but that pity only extended so far and was not worth losing a priceless relic over. He was obviously not a threat for the reason I have pointed out above. I still see no reason to consider the decision too hange the script "disgusting".

[DreamEternal]

I totally remembered that wrong, thanks for sources. I think my arguement still works however.

Kaladin wanted to save Szeth out of pity, but that pity only extended so far and was not worth losing a priceless relic over. He was obviously not a threat for the reason I have pointed out above. I still see no reason to consider the decision too hange the script "disgusting".

A priceless relic that wouldn't just walj away...

Really, it wouldn't slow him much to lash Szeth upwards before taking the Blade, and Kaladin sure cares more about lifes than shardblades, no matter how special.

And in the original version he didn't choose to kill Szeth. His blow was a feint that could be easily parried, bit Szeth just didn't because he wanted to die and it happened too fast to change the course of his strike.

Changing it was a waste that created plotholes for nothing.

[Blightsong]

A priceless relic that wouldn't just walj away...

Really, it wouldn't slow him much to lash Szeth upwards before taking the Blade, and Kaladin sure cares more about lifes than shardblades, no matter how special.

And in the original version he didn't choose to kill Szeth. His blow was a feint that could be easily parried, bit Szeth just didn't because he wanted to die and it happened too fast to change the course of his strike.

Changing it was a waste that created plotholes for nothing.

As I explained above, it was one or the other. By the time he got the blade, which is lighter and has a lower terminal velocity than Szeth, Szeth dissappeared behind a flung plateu and was lost. Kal found nothing when he went and looked for Szeth, and the blade would have been lost the same way.

Kal DEFFINATELY ment for Szeth to die. As we see in the new version, he could have directed the blade away and not killed Szeth, being experienced in Melee weapon combat myself I can tell you that it's not difficult to stop a blow from hitting your opponent, even if it's a feint you expected then to parry.

Edit: As for "Kaladin sure cares about lives than shardblades", Kal didn't care much for that life, and that's just who the character is. If you don't like how the changes changed your view of the character I understand, but don't disrepect the decision to make the change itself because of that. It's just how the author envisions the story and his characters.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Blightsong

[DreamEternal]

Kal DEFFINATELY ment for Szeth to die. As we see in the new version, he could have directed the blade away and not killed Szeth, being experienced in Melee weapon combat myself I can tell you that it's not difficult to stop a blow from hitting your opponent, even if it's a feint you expected then to parry.

No, he didn't mean. I mean, in the original version he couldn't redirect the blow. In the new one he could. You can't use the fact he could in one to prove he could in the other. The way it was written, he didn't plan to kill Szeth, it just happened in the heat of the fight.

Also, I don't think you have experiece swordfighting with stormlight

[Vander]

I did address your statement... "Kaladin saw an un-glowing Szeth". No glow, no stormlight, no heal, no threat. Kaladin obviously believed that if he could not kill Szeth that would be optimal, and at this point he was kicking Szeth's chull. If he could protect and not kill, that is optimal for Kal. I don't see why that is so bad.

I know I'm backtracking a bit, but the "un-glowing Szeth" thing happened AFTER the strike, as well. As such, he STILL had no reason to divert the attack.

[Blightsong]

I know I'm backtracking a bit, but the "un-glowing Szeth" thing happened AFTER the strike, as well. As such, he STILL had no reason to divert the attack.

As stated in the text, pity. He believed he could stop Szeth without killing him. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Vander]

As stated in the text, pity. He believed he could stop Szeth without killing him. I see nothing wrong with that.

If he felt pity, he shouldn't have let him fall into the Highstorm. He may not have killed him technically, and it may help him sleep at night, but the result is the same.

[Blightsong]

If he felt pity, he shouldn't have let him fall into the Highstorm. He may not have killed him technically, and it may help him sleep at night, but the result is the same.

For the third time, he didn't feel enough pity for Szeth to let a priceless relic, that could help save lives in the coming storm (pun intended).

[Vander]

For the third time, he didn't feel enough pity for Szeth to let a priceless relic, that could help save lives in the coming storm (pun intended).

People have previously pointed out that Szeth could be a valuable source of information. Remember how there are (presumably) seven Honorblades in Shinovar?

[Moogle]

Just Lash him up and then, after retrieving the Blade, take him to Dalinar. Szeth would be a valuable source of information and king could judge him and pass sentence

 

I think this is a rather important point in that isn't brought up in the books...

 

Szeth clearly tells Kaladin that he's operating under orders. There's a mysterious someone who hired this assassin to throw Roshar into chaos. It's not like he's going to stop just because Szeth died.

 

Not once does Kaladin or Dalinar wonder who this person is. And then Kaladin lets Szeth die so he can't possibly find out!

 

I find this immensely confusing. I guess I can excuse it because Kaladin was a little busy, but it feels a little too convenient for the plot that Taravangian wasn't found out there.

[Vander]

I think this is a rather important point in that isn't brought up in the books...

 

Szeth clearly tells Kaladin that he's operating under orders. There's a mysterious someone who hired this assassin to throw Roshar into chaos. It's not like he's going to stop just because Szeth died.

 

Not once does Kaladin or Dalinar wonder who this person is. And then Kaladin lets Szeth die so he can't possibly find out!

 

I find this immensely confusing. I guess I can excuse it because Kaladin was a little busy, but it feels a little too convenient for the plot that Taravangian wasn't found out there.

Does he? I don't remember that, though I can see it.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Car'a'carn

[Moogle]

Does he? I don't remember that, though I can see it.

 

“I don’t know what that means,” Kaladin said. “But you never had to kill.”

“My orders—”

“Excuses! If that was why you murdered, then you’re not the evil man I assumed. You’re a coward instead.”

 

I suppose in theory Kaladin could have missed the implication, but the way he responded makes me think he didn't.

 

It still feels strange that nobody in-world ever seems to question why the Assassin in White is doing what he's doing. Unless I've missed that? Does everyone just assume he's a serial killer or something that's conveniently targeting world leaders?

[Vander]

“I don’t know what that means,” Kaladin said. “But you never had to kill.”

“My orders—”

“Excuses! If that was why you murdered, then you’re not the evil man I assumed. You’re a coward instead.”

 

I suppose in theory Kaladin could have missed the implication, but the way he responded makes me think he didn't.

 

It still feels strange that nobody in-world ever seems to question why the Assassin in White is doing what he's doing. Unless I've missed that? Does everyone just assume he's a serial killer or something that's conveniently targeting world leaders?

You know, I think nobody really cared after the Parshendi. 

 

Funny thing is, that's the one excerpt that always, without fail, pissed me off. I don't think Kaladin had any right to call Szeth a coward, especially as he knew nothing about him. 

 

Heck, it takes a coward to commit suicide in the face of the odds: Kaladin would have done that if Syl hadn't been there for him. Meanwhile, Szeth lived through something as bad or worse for... what? 8 years? And had nobody to stop him. He could easily have crumbled and killed himself, but did not.

[Edgedancer]

“I don’t know what that means,” Kaladin said. “But you never had to kill.”

“My orders—”

“Excuses! If that was why you murdered, then you’re not the evil man I assumed. You’re a coward instead.”

 

I suppose in theory Kaladin could have missed the implication, but the way he responded makes me think he didn't.

 

It still feels strange that nobody in-world ever seems to question why the Assassin in White is doing what he's doing. Unless I've missed that? Does everyone just assume he's a serial killer or something that's conveniently targeting world leaders?

In their coversations before Szeth also talked about being truthless and that "they" told him he was wrong, so while he didn't exactly spell out his employment terms, it was rather obvious that someone is pulling on his strings.

 

I can't think of any specific point in text but from what I remember they always just talk about him as if he were some kind of boogeyman.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Blightsong]

People have previously pointed out that Szeth could be a valuable source of information. Remember how there are (presumably) seven Honorblades in Shinovar?

Yea, I don't think that it is well known that the Shin have the honorbladess, and certainly Kaladin does not. I agree that it's stupid that Kal didn't capture Szeth for information on who is trying to kill Dalinar, but I can see why the character would go for the blade anyways. I don't think this is a problem with the changes however. Do you still think that the changes were that bad? I think I have argued my point sufficiently.

Edit: On second thought, how the hell would Kal have gotten Szeth down if he did lash him up. Szeth couldn't heal, and even a rock hitting him would've been instant death. It's not like Kaladin can keep them both up until the storm is over, he wouldn't have enough stormlight.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Blightsong

[Oversleep]

Yea, I don't think that it is well known that the Shin have the honorbladess, and certainly Kaladin does not. I agree that it's stupid that Kal didn't capture Szeth for information on who is trying to kill Dalinar, but I can see why the character would go for the blade anyways. I don't think this is a problem with the changes however. Do you still think that the changes were that bad? I think I have argued my point sufficiently.

Edit: On second thought, how the hell would Kal have gotten Szeth down if he did lash him up. Szeth couldn't heal, and even a rock hitting him would've been instant death. It's not like Kaladin can keep them both up until the storm is over, he wouldn't have enough stormlight.

Well, Stormlight runs out, so Kaladin could have catched Szeth when Szeth would start to fall down, in the meantime Kaladin could have flown through highstorm and get as much Stormlight as he needs.

[DreamEternal]

Heck, it takes a coward to commit suicide in the face of the odds: Kaladin would have done that if Syl hadn't been there for him. Meanwhile, Szeth lived through something as bad or worse for... what? 8 years? And had nobody to stop him. He could easily have crumbled and killed himself, but did not.

Now you are being even more unfair. Everyone can be weak sometines, and everyone breaks if taken too far.

While I sympathise with Szeth, I'd say he is the weaker of the two, for being too afraid to question his beliefs, which was all it would take for him to break free.

Not saying it would be easy to just cast aside all he though was true since his birth, just that it would be easier than not giving up in a situation like the one Kaladin was in before almost diving into the Honor Chasm.

Edited December 13, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Blightsong]

Well, Stormlight runs out, so Kaladin could have catched Szeth when Szeth would start to fall down, in the meantime Kaladin could have flown through highstorm and get as much Stormlight as he needs.

From that height, if Kaladin tried to catch Szeth they would both become mush, and Szetb would've had to go through a highstorm to reach the ground, which would probably kill him.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Blightsong

[Oversleep]

From that height, if Kaladin tried to catch Szeth they would both become mush, and Szetb would've had to go through a highstorm to reach the ground, which would probably kill him.

What height?

1) Lash Szeth up

2) Dive for Honorblade

3) Jump in highstorm to renew supplies of Stormlight

4) Lash to the sky

5) Catch Szeth before his Lashing runs out of Stormlight

[Blightsong]

What height?

1) Lash Szeth up

2) Dive for Honorblade

3) Jump in highstorm to renew supplies of Stormlight

4) Lash to the sky

5) Catch Szeth before his Lashing runs out of Stormlight

I'm not sure Kaladin could find the eye of the storm to replenish his reserves and make it back before the lashings ran up. Number 2 also wouldn't work as the blade would almost certainly be lost in the storm by the time Kaladin could rescue Szeth.

[Oversleep]

I'm not sure Kaladin could find the eye of the storm to replenish his reserves and make it back before the lashings ran up. Number 2 also wouldn't work as the blade would almost certainly be lost in the storm by the time Kaladin could rescue Szeth.

But he could at least try! Try to Lash him upwards, instead of going "Hmm. He's falling to a certain death in highstorm. How uninteresting."

[Vander]

Yea, I don't think that it is well known that the Shin have the honorbladess, and certainly Kaladin does not. I agree that it's stupid that Kal didn't capture Szeth for information on who is trying to kill Dalinar, but I can see why the character would go for the blade anyways. I don't think this is a problem with the changes however. Do you still think that the changes were that bad? I think I have argued my point sufficiently.

Edit: On second thought, how the hell would Kal have gotten Szeth down if he did lash him up. Szeth couldn't heal, and even a rock hitting him would've been instant death. It's not like Kaladin can keep them both up until the storm is over, he wouldn't have enough stormlight.

Well, I'm fairly certain he could have lashed to Honorblade up and gone after Szeth. While the Blade was powerful, Szeth`s information was probably more useful, especially  as it was shown that a normal person with a Shardblade could be defeated by a Radiant.

 

I'm not sure Kaladin could find the eye of the storm to replenish his reserves and make it back before the lashings ran up. Number 2 also wouldn't work as the blade would almost certainly be lost in the storm by the time Kaladin could rescue Szeth.

You need the eye of the storm specifically? I thought it was just about anything.