Just finished WOR. mind blown...and was wondering...

[Spreadness]

I read deep into the night yesterday, and finished words of radiance at about 3 am.

this is sanderson's best creation so far, in my humble opinion. what a splendid book! both SLA books showed an immense progress in his writing, compared to mistborn.

I was wondering about something...(spoilers ahead...)

at the end of the book, we understand that all of the shardblades are actually sprens. those that are bonded to a someone (creating a radiant, eventually) are alive, while the other shardblades we knew throughout books 1-2 are dead sprean. the 10 heartbeats are what requires to revive them when summoning them in blade form. I figured out that when kaladin summons his blade (syl): if she's around (probably meaning that she's semi materilze in the phisical plane) - it takes an intant, while on other "similar" cases, such as shallan's pattern - the 10 heartbeats were still needed...wondered if i got it right.

what intrigued me more was szeth's honorblade. since syl told kal that the honorblade got NO SPREN...how come szeth always needed those 10 heartbeats, ever since we meet him for the first time in the legendary prologue of way of kings?

I heard that there is a version of the book with something changed (I got an earlier UK copy...) where can I read of the specific changes? is it regarding the issue I just wrote about?



 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Spreadness

[Edgedancer]

Shallan does not need 10 heartbeats to summon Pattern in his blade form, that was simply a consequenze of her supresing that her blade is a living spren and not a dead one like normal shardblades. I think something similair applies to Szeth in that he's not aware of the differences between the types of blades and thinks they need the time to be summoned so he needs it as well. I might be wrong on that count, though.

 

No, the changes are only about how the fight between Szeth and kaladin ended.  

Hardcover: PAGE 19
Revised word document: PAGE 12
Current:

• She took it as the rebuke it was, and found herself blushing. Even her mother Navani could not do that to her.

Replacement:

• She took it as the rebuke it was, and found herself blushing. Even her mother, Navani, could not do that to her.

Hardcover: PAGE 84
Revised word document: PAGE 104
Current:

• “Toward victory and, at long last, vengeance.”

Replacement:

• “On victory and, at long last, vengeance.”

Hardcover: PAGE 99
Revised word document: PAGE 126
Current:

• We start with some of the lesser Shardbearers and work up.”

Replacement:

• We start with some of the lesser Shardbearers and work up to him.”

Hardcover: PAGE 136
Revised word document: PAGE 181
Current:

• Father carried Shallan over the body of a woman in white. Little blood there.

Replacement:

• Father carried Shallan over the body of a woman in blue and gold. Little blood there.

Hardcover: PAGE 147
Revised word document: PAGE 196
Current:

• The other spheres were still there, but the the sleeve was unbuttoned.

Replacement:

• The other spheres were still there, but the sleeve was unbuttoned.

Hardcover: PAGE 367
Revised word document: PAGE 512
Current:

• If she knew that, it might tell her how her own princedom was fairing.

Replacement:

• If she knew that, it might tell her how her own princedom was faring.

Hardcover: PAGE 397
Revised word document: PAGE 556
Current:

• I SUPPOSE THIS MUST BE, the Stormfather said.

Replacement:

• I SUPPOSE THIS MUST BE, the Rider of Storms said.

Hardcover: PAGE 397
Revised word document: PAGE 556
Current:

• I CANNOT STOP THIS, the Stormfather said. I WOULD

Replacement:

• I CANNOT STOP THIS, the Rider of Storms said. I WOULD

Hardcover: PAGE 517
Revised word document: PAGE 727
Current:

• The terms were for an exchange of goods, Father trading some of his breechtree cotton and raw shum to Revilar in exchange for a small payment

Replacement:

• The terms were for an exchange of goods, Father trading some of his breachtree cotton and raw shum to Revilar in exchange for a small payment

Hardcover: PAGE 608
Revised word document: PAGE 857/858
Current:

• Even walking on her tiptoes—which was masked by the illusion—she was much shorter than the highprince.

Replacement:

• Even walking on her tiptoes—which was masked by the illusion—she was much shorter than the highlord.

Hardcover: PAGE 647
Revised word document: PAGE 915
Current:

• Blasted spren, Kaladin thought, walking up bedside Shallan and Adolin.

Replacement:

• Blasted spren, Kaladin thought, walking up beside Shallan and Adolin

Hardcover: PAGE 690
Revised word document: PAGE 977
Current:

• Gawk slunk around the corner.

Replacement:

• Gawx slunk around the corner.

Hardcover: PAGE 788
Revised word document: PAGE 1113
Current:

• “And then the storm would come,” Dalinar replied softly. Twelve days.

Replacement:

• “And then the storm would come,” Dalinar replied softly. Eleven days.

Hardcover: PAGE 955
Revised word document: PAGE 1355
Current:

• After no attack had come that night, Dalinar had pushed the three armies into another day of marching.

Replacement:

• After no attack had come that night, Dalinar had pushed the four armies into another day of marching.

Hardcover: PAGE 992
Revised word document: PAGE 1410
Current:

• Had they recovered Teleb’s Shards?

Replacement:

• Had they recovered Teleb’s Plate and the King’s Blade he was wielding?

Hardcover: PAGE 1003
Revised word document: PAGE 1424
Current:

• General Khal’s som wore his own Plate and bore Teleb’s Blade, which he’d blessedly recovered from the corpse after the other man had fallen.

Replacement:

• General Khal’s son wore his own Plate and bore the King’s Blade that he’d blessedly recovered from Teleb’s corpse after the other man had fallen.

Hardcover: PAGE 1009
Revised word document: PAGE 1433
Current:

• Two storms coming, one from each direction. They will crash into each other right here.”

Replacement:

• Two storms coming, one from each direction. They will crash into one another right here.”

Hardcover: PAGE 1009
Revised word document: PAGE 1433
Current:

• “They will feed each other,” Pattern said.

Replacement:

• “They will feed one another,” Pattern said.

Hardcover: PAGE 1041
Revised word document: PAGE 1478 / 1479
Current:

• Szeth did not parry. He just closed his eyes.
• Kaladin drove his Blade into the assassin’s chest right below the neck, severing the spine. Smoke burned out from beneath his eyelids, and his Blade slipped from his fingers. It did not vanish.
• Get that! Syl sent him, a mental shout. Grab it, Kaladin. Don’t lose it!
• Kaladin dove after the Blade, dropping Szeth’s corpse, letting it fall backward into the stormwall. It vanished among the wind, the rain, and the lightning, trailing faint wisps of Stormlight.
• Kaladin grabbed the Blade just before the storm consumed it. Then he Lashed himself back upward, passing along the stormwall, the windspren he’d attracted spiraling about him and laughing with pure joy. As he crested the top of the storm, they burst around him and zipped away, moving off to dance in front of the still-advancing storm.

Replacement:

• Szeth did not parry. He just closed his eyes to accept the attack.
• In that instant, for reasons he could not have articulated—pity, perhaps?— Kaladin diverted his blow, driving the Blade through Szeth’s wrist. The skin greyed. Flashing with reflected lightning, the sword tumbled from the assassin’s fingers, then dulled as it plummeted.
• The glow fled the assassin’s form. All his Stormlight vanished in a puff, all Lashings banished.
• Szeth started to fall.
• Get that sword! Syl sent to Kaladin, a mental shout. Grab it.
• “The assassin!”
• He has released the bond. He’s nothing without that sword! It must not be lost! Kaladin dove after the Blade, passing Szeth, who tumbled through the air like a rag doll, buffeted by winds toward the stormwall.
• Kaladin furiously Lashed himself downward, snatching the Blade just before the storm consumed it. Nearby, the assassin dropped past him into the storm and was swallowed up, leaving Kaladin with the haunting image of Szeth’s limp silhouette being driven into a plateau below with all the tempest’s force.
• Raising the assassin’s Blade, Kaladin Lashed himself back upward, passing along the stormwall, the windspren he’d attracted spiraling about him and laughing with pure joy. As he crested the top of the storm, they burst around him and zipped away, moving off to dance in front of the still advancing storm.

Hardcover: PAGE 1042
Revised word document: PAGE 1479
Current:

• “That was very nicely done,” she said. “Perhaps I’ll keep you around this time.”

Replacement:

• “I didn’t kill him,” Kaladin said.
• “Did you want to?”
• “No,” Kaladin said, surprised that it was the truth. “But I should have anyway.”
• “You have his Blade,” she replied. “The Stormfather likely took him. And if not … well, he is no longer the weapon he once was. I must say, that was very nicely done. Perhaps I’ll keep you around this time.”

Hardcover: PAGE 1043
Revised word document: PAGE 1481 / 1482
Current:

• “This is going to happen again?” Kaladin said. “That other storm is still out there?”
• “Yes,” Syl said, sitting on his shoulder. “A new storm. It’s not of us, but of him.”
• “Will it be this bad every time it passes?” Kaladin asked, surveying the wreckage. Of the plateaus he could see, only the one had been destroyed completely. But if the storm could do that to pure rock, what would it do to a city? Particularly since it blew the wrong way.

Replacement:

• He found no sign of Szeth’s corpse. That could mean the man had survived somehow, or it could just mean the storm had buried the body in rubble or blown it away, leaving it in some forgotten chasm to rot until the bones were finally picked over by an unfortunate salvage crew.
• For now, the fact that Szeth had not summoned his Blade back to him was enough. Either he was dead, or—as Syl had said—the strange weapon was no longer bound to him. Kaladin didn’t know how to tell. This Shardblade had no gemstone at the pommel to indicate.
• Kaladin stopped at a high point of the plateau and surveyed the wreckage. Then he glanced toward Syl, who sat on his shoulder. “This is going to happen again?” he said. “That other storm is still out there?”
• “Yes,” Syl said, “A new storm. It’s not of us, but of him.”
• “Will it be this bad every time it passes?” Of the plateaus he could see, only the one had been destroyed completely. But if the storm could do that to pure rock, what would it do to a city? Particularly since it blew the wrong way.

Hardcover: PAGE 1045
Revised word document: PAGE 1485
Current:

• “He is dead, then?” Teft asked.
• “Yes.”
• “You slew the Assassin in White,” Bisig breathed.

Replacement:

• “He is dead, then?” Teft asked.
• “Near enough.”
• “You defeated the Assassin in White,” Bisig breathed.

Hardcover: PAGE 1058
Revised word document: PAGE 1503
Current:

• Adolin had left a Stormlight lantern for her that was extravagant, considering how few lit gemstones they had—and it showed a small square chamber with a stone bench in the corner.

Replacement:

• Adolin had left a Stormlight lantern for her—that was extravagant, considering how few lit gemstones they had—and it showed a small square chamber with a stone bench in the corner.

Hardcover: PAGE 1062
Revised word document: PAGE 1510
Current:

• “Why am I not dead?” he whispered. “The Shardblade pierced me. I fell. Why didn’t I die?”

Replacement:

• “Why am I not dead?” he whispered. “I released my bond to the Shardblade. I fell into the storm without Lashings. Why didn’t I die?”

Hardcover: PAGE 1062
Revised word document: PAGE 1510 / 1511
Current:

• “Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.”

Replacement:

• “Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late. But surely you know this. Two of the Blades held by your people allow Regrowth. I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.”

Hardcover: PAGE 1064
Revised word document: PAGE 1513
Current:

• Still kneeling, Szeth looked up after the man. “My people have the other Honorblades, and have kept them safe for millennia.

Replacement:

• Still kneeling, Szeth looked up after the man. “You are right. My people have the other Honorblades, and have kept them safe for millennia.

Hardcover: PAGE 1064
Revised word document: PAGE 1513
Current:

• “I have brought a Shardblade for you.

Replacement:

• “I have brought a replacement Shardblade for you.

 

 

.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Spreadness]

thank you so much, friend edgedancer!

I'm not sure i like this one better then the original . It felt both overwhelming and wonderful when szeth was actually dead and completely revived. I guess it's still the same, but brandon wanted to prevent the shardblade from actually severing his soul for future consistency? (maybe dying like that meant to be final...I guess).

anyway - I'm so happy he eventually kept szeth. this is one of the most interesting characters in those books and ever. he deserves his own book!

Edited December 12, 2015 by Spreadness

[Edgedancer]

thank you so much, friend edgedancer!

I'm not sure i like this one better then the original . It felt both overwhelming and wonderful when szeth was actually dead and completely revived. I guess it's still the same, but brandon wanted to prevent the shardblade from actually severing his soul for future consistency? (maybe dying like that meant to be final...I guess).

anyway - I'm so happy he eventually kept szeth. this is one of the most interesting characters in those books and ever. he deserves his own book!

No actually the shardblade not damaging the soul and thus not showing that a honorblade can't heal a wound of this kind is apparently something Brandon regrets loosing in this ending. From what he told us he has two main reasons for the change. The first one he told us about originally is because he didn't want Kaladin to kill an opponent that had already given up and on further inquiry he said that what really pushed him towards it is that there were apparently to many "dead" characters coming back to life in the book, so not seeing Szeth die on screen and only completely helplessly fall to certain death (I still wonder how there even was a body for Nin to revive left) is supposed to make that better.

[Vander]

Actually, I was sort of disgusted by the changes, which is something I haven't felt for this book in other instances. It's just cheap to make Kal into this "classic I-don't-kill" hero, instead of someone who's willing to go through with the act to protect.

 

I felt that it cheapened both Szeth and Kaladin's characters.

[Blightsong]

Actually, I was sort of disgusted by the changes, which is something I haven't felt for this book in other instances. It's just cheap to make Kal into this "classic I-don't-kill" hero, instead of someone who's willing to go through with the act to protect.

 

I felt that it cheapened both Szeth and Kaladin's characters.

But that was what Kaladin's progression was towards the entire book. He even states that he will only kill when absolutely neccesary. He is willing to go through and protect "so long as it is right".

[Edgedancer]

But that was what Kaladin's progression was towards the entire book. He even states that he will only kill when absolutely neccesary. He is willing to go through and protect "so long as it is right".

I'd like to point out  that whatever sentiment Kaladin had towards not killing Szeth gets pretty much undone by him deciding that securing a powerful shard was more important than his life.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Vander]

But that was what Kaladin's progression was towards the entire book. He even states that he will only kill when absolutely neccesary. He is willing to go through and protect "so long as it is right".

The thing is, Szeth was powerful. Kaladin didn't know at that time that he wielded an Honorblade instead of a Shardblade. He DID know, however, that Szeth could Surgebind. 

 

This points toward Szeth being a Radiant, to Kal in-character. Since he doesn't exactly know how to SEVER a Nahel bond, he must also then "know" that Szeth can heal himself with Stormlight, from even Shardblade wounds. 

 

On top of all this, Szeth was insane at that point.

 

All of this points toward Szeth being a danger. If there was even the slightest chance of him escaping, (and the chance was damnation high, if you look at it with only Kal's knowledge) they would be forced to wait for another attempt at assassination, and who knows how many dead in between. 

 

So, HOW does it make sense from a character's perspective to NOT kill Szeth at any opportunity? Heck, if you still want to think of Kaladin as only a paragon of virtue, this could even be counted as a mercy-kill. It doesn't make much sense at all for him to try to disarm Szeth. (Though, if he was using a REGULAR sword...)

 

I'd like to point out that Kaladin deciding that whatever sentiment he had towards not killing Szeth gets pretty much undone by him deciding that securing a powerful shard was more important than his life.

And then there's this. I didn't even realize the implications of Kal going after the Honorblade instead of trying to save Szeth.

 

I dunno... this "tweaking" makes Kaladin look less like the Radiant he's supposed to be.

 

Edit: On looking back, this may be taken as kinda of angry. It isn't. The capitalization and stuff is all there for emphasis.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Car'a'carn

[Spreadness]

I tend to agree with car'a'carn. even though that in the end - what really mattered to me was that szeth did survived eventually. I don't care how dead was he. undoing (as in: completely destroying) this character would have been an immense loss to this saga.

[stonedshaman]

In a WoB he said that all magic in the cosmere deal with perception. Szeth and Shallan both think/see themselves as needing the 10 heartbeats to summon their blades and that becomes their reality. Same holds true for Kaladin's brands. He see's himself as branded therefore the stomlight will not heal him

Edited December 12, 2015 by stonedshaman

[Spreadness]

In a WoB he said that all magic in the cosmere deal with perception. Szeth and Shallan both think/see themselves as needing the 10 heartbeats to summon their blades and that becomes their reality. Same holds true for Kaladin's brands. He see's himself as branded therefore the stomlight will not heal him

it doesn't make sense, since shallan summoned the shardblade when she was little and unaware - she did it on an instinct. nobody tought her (as far as we know...) about the ten heartbeats thingy.

my explenation for the shalan case: pattern was still "numb" in terms of mind. he was almost mindless back then, thus - summoning him as a blade is the same as summoning a dead spren's blade.

the problem is with our main man, son son vallano... and since brandon is very thorough in his wolrd building and magic systems, I trust that we don't know enough about the honorblades yet...

[FormlessFox]

it doesn't make sense, since shallan summoned the shardblade when she was little and unaware - she did it on an instinct. nobody tought her (as far as we know...) about the ten heartbeats thingy.

my explenation for the shalan case: pattern was still "numb" in terms of mind. he was almost mindless back then, thus - summoning him as a blade is the same as summoning a dead spren's blade.

the problem is with our main man, son son vallano... and since brandon is very thorough in his wolrd building and magic systems, I trust that we don't know enough about the honorblades yet...

 

Since her oaths are based on lies and children live a life filled with little lies she may have been able to connect with Pattern at an early age.  The perception thing is kind of like the assassins of old who said "nothing is true everything is permitted." Pattern must have been sentient before Shallan's father locked him away and then he deteriorated. It was probably not until Shallan grew up and learned about shardblades did she put in her mind that it took 10 heartbeats.  It is kind of like the Wheel of Time when channellers would lift their hands up to use magic when they did not really need to but the motion was ingrained in them.

[natc]

Yeah, when she was young she could probably summon Pattern instantly. When she does it in WoR she's trying to deny that her shardblade is abnormal subconsciously, and since she now knows about the heartbeats her mind causes the summoning to stall that long. There is no conflict of logic here.

[Blightsong]

The thing is, Szeth was powerful. Kaladin didn't know at that time that he wielded an Honorblade instead of a Shardblade. He DID know, however, that Szeth could Surgebind. 

 

This points toward Szeth being a Radiant, to Kal in-character. Since he doesn't exactly know how to SEVER a Nahel bond, he must also then "know" that Szeth can heal himself with Stormlight, from even Shardblade wounds. 

 

On top of all this, Szeth was insane at that point.

 

All of this points toward Szeth being a danger. If there was even the slightest chance of him escaping, (and the chance was damnation high, if you look at it with only Kal's knowledge) they would be forced to wait for another attempt at assassination, and who knows how many dead in between. 

 

So, HOW does it make sense from a character's perspective to NOT kill Szeth at any opportunity? Heck, if you still want to think of Kaladin as only a paragon of virtue, this could even be counted as a mercy-kill. It doesn't make much sense at all for him to try to disarm Szeth. (Though, if he was using a REGULAR sword...)

 

And then there's this. I didn't even realize the implications of Kal going after the Honorblade instead of trying to save Szeth.

 

I dunno... this "tweaking" makes Kaladin look less like the Radiant he's supposed to be.

 

Edit: On looking back, this may be taken as kinda of angry. It isn't. The capitalization and stuff is all there for emphasis.

Szeth not only didn't have powers, as he unbounded the blade, but he also had a shard dead foot and hand. Syl had told him in book that Szeth didn't have a Spren to guide him and that something was different about his blade. She then shout, right after Kaladin spares Szeth, that his he unbonded his blade. I don't think Szeth would've posed much of a threat, even if he lived through the storm. You say this tweaking makes Kalsdin look less like the radiant he is supposed to be but my point is proven in the fact that Brandon tweaked this part at all. If the person who came up with this story thinks that Kaladin not killing Szeth was something the character would do, and something that is order would do, then it's impossible to really argue otherwise. Killing Szeth wouldn't have protected anyone, and quite frankly the tweak just fleshed Kaladin's character out more. He didn't spare Szeth's life out of mercy, he spared his life so that Szeth would have to live with what he had done.

As for the whole "he then let Szeth to die" thing I can blame on Syl. Kaladin had to make a split second decision and Syl pushed him to go one way instead of the other. I also doubt that Kaladin cared very much for Szeth's life. There was no sentiment towards Szeth, Kaladin just wanted Szeth to pay for what he had done.

[FormlessFox]

As for the whole "he then let Szeth to die" thing I can blame on Syl. Kaladin had to make a split second decision and Syl pushed him to go one way instead of the other. I also doubt that Kaladin cared very much for Szeth's life. There was no sentiment towards Szeth, Kaladin just wanted Szeth to pay for what he had done.

 

I completely agree.  Szeth literally caused chaos throughtout the world (he is also the reason Tien and Kaladin end up in the plains in the first place).  Kaladin has had scattered we are fighting to the death but lets kind of chat conversations.  Not enough at all for him to say I need to save this guy in the middle of the incredible double highstorm/everstorm combo.  Syl tells him in no uncertain terms the Honorblade must be saved and why should Kaladin argue?

 

Kaladin has no background on Szeth's past so its reasonable that he isn't committed to saving him.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

The thing is, Szeth was powerful. Kaladin didn't know at that time that he wielded an Honorblade instead of a Shardblade. He DID know, however, that Szeth could Surgebind.

This points toward Szeth being a Radiant, to Kal in-character. Since he doesn't exactly know how to SEVER a Nahel bond, he must also then "know" that Szeth can heal himself with Stormlight, from even Shardblade wounds.

On top of all this, Szeth was insane at that point.

All of this points toward Szeth being a danger. If there was even the slightest chance of him escaping, (and the chance was damnation high, if you look at it with only Kal's knowledge) they would be forced to wait for another attempt at assassination, and who knows how many dead in between.

So, HOW does it make sense from a character's perspective to NOT kill Szeth at any opportunity? Heck, if you still want to think of Kaladin as only a paragon of virtue, this could even be counted as a mercy-kill. It doesn't make much sense at all for him to try to disarm Szeth. (Though, if he was using a REGULAR sword...)

And then there's this. I didn't even realize the implications of Kal going after the Honorblade instead of trying to save Szeth.

I dunno... this "tweaking" makes Kaladin look less like the Radiant he's supposed to be.

Edit: On looking back, this may be taken as kinda of angry. It isn't. The capitalization and stuff is all there for emphasis.

I dont agree. Kaladins oaths are to protect those who cant petect themselves basically.He would basically just be nightblood if all he should do is kill everyone who has a chance of hurting people. He doesnt KILL to protect unless he absolutely has to. Plus people who are paragons of virtue dont kill out of mercy. Basically kaladin wholly rejects that notion when it comes to killing Elokhar(it would be a mercy kill so Alethkar can survive, or some such nonsense).

*EDIT* And I may be mistaken, but didnt Syl know Szeth wasnt a Radiant after his & Kals first meet up? Thought she could tell because he didnt have a spren. Or maybe Im mixing up info from Szeth POV from WoK?

And when it comes to Kal retrieving the Honorblade instead of Szeths body, Syl did basically scream a command that he NEEDED to recover that Honorblade. And he did JUST resurrect her, so I can forgive that. Plus Szeth wasnt truly the danger in that situation. The Honorblade was the true danger (at least to me). You cant risk somebody else finding it and having to rinse & repeat the Szeth arc with someone else. Plus mercy killing is just an excuse a lot of toons use to justify their revenge.

Edited December 12, 2015 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Spreadness]

off topic: I find it very cool that mr.sanderson seems to be inspired by some of the jewish mythology and names !
adonalsium = adonai (hebrew term for god, elohim, literally translated "my lord").
aharietiam = aharit hayamin (the end of days).
and the general concept of something big and divine shattered into small pieces but keeping some of it's whole charactaristics - the kabala say that all of mankind souls are shards from the first man's soul, which was shattered...))

I also just remembered sephiroth from final fantasy VII (which was named after the 10 sfirot - 10 planes of existance).

first time I noticed this, I kind of laughed at myself for looking for exotic, latin-like names for my own campains & world-building. shouldn't look too far away...

[Vander]

Szeth not only didn't have powers, as he unbounded the blade, but he also had a shard dead foot and hand. Syl had told him in book that Szeth didn't have a Spren to guide him and that something was different about his blade. She then shout, right after Kaladin spares Szeth, that his he unbonded his blade. I don't think Szeth would've posed much of a threat, even if he lived through the storm. You say this tweaking makes Kalsdin look less like the radiant he is supposed to be but my point is proven in the fact that Brandon tweaked this part at all. If the person who came up with this story thinks that Kaladin not killing Szeth was something the character would do, and something that is order would do, then it's impossible to really argue otherwise. Killing Szeth wouldn't have protected anyone, and quite frankly the tweak just fleshed Kaladin's character out more. He didn't spare Szeth's life out of mercy, he spared his life so that Szeth would have to live with what he had done.

As for the whole "he then let Szeth to die" thing I can blame on Syl. Kaladin had to make a split second decision and Syl pushed him to go one way instead of the other. I also doubt that Kaladin cared very much for Szeth's life. There was no sentiment towards Szeth, Kaladin just wanted Szeth to pay for what he had done.

Did Syl tell him that Szeth had unbound the blade? Admittedly, Syl telling him that Szeth's blade was NOT a Shardblade could change his conclusions, but if Szeth can Surgebind wouldn't the next logical leap be that he can also use Stormlight to heal himself? It is noted various times throughout that battle that either Szeth's light is dimmer, or expends itself quicker, than Kaladin's. This, combined with the fact that the soul-cut foot wouldn't be needed for an aerial battle, would lead to the conclusion that Szeth was saving his Stormlight, not that he was unable to heal himself.

 

So, what if Szeth escaped again? He would again be a danger to Roshar. 

 

Another thing: the whole "Szeth killed my brother!" thing was slightly ridiculous. I felt during the entire storyline that he was trying to pin the guilt he felt over Tien's death (admittedly mislead guilt, but that is beside the point) on somebody else. He could just as easily have said "Amaram killed Tien!" and been done with it. Yes, Gavilar's assassination sparked the war, but the Vengeance Pact was enacted by the Highprinces. Kaladin could then place the blame on Dalinar, or Sadeas, or any of the Highprinces  he didn't like.

 

And I meant that if he had killed Szeth out of mercy, it would have fit better with the character. Killing him for vengeance doesn't really seem to be the work of a Radiant, and sparing him so he could live with what he'd done seems more Skybreaker. Because, you know, Windrunners are more about leading and protecting. Further, on the thing about Brandon, I would like to say that while he's a great author, it IS possible for him to get something wrong.

 

Finally, on the thing about Syl: It's slightly weird that you originally stated that Kaladin spared Szeth out of a desire for him to be punished, and then Syl basically told him: "Screw the guy! Go after the sword instead!" If so, why didn't she just tell Kal to kill Szeth in the first place? And, again: If Kaladin just wanted Szeth to be punished for his acts, that's either vengeance or the ideal of a Skybreaker.

[Edgedancer]

Did Syl tell him that Szeth had unbound the blade? Admittedly, Syl telling him that Szeth's blade was NOT a Shardblade could change his conclusions, but if Szeth can Surgebind wouldn't the next logical leap be that he can also use Stormlight to heal himself? It is noted various times throughout that battle that either Szeth's light is dimmer, or expends itself quicker, than Kaladin's. This, combined with the fact that the soul-cut foot wouldn't be needed for an aerial battle, would lead to the conclusion that Szeth was saving his Stormlight, not that he was unable to heal himself.

Syl told him once Szeth started dropping to his death, meaning he spared him while having no reason to assume he's no longer a danger and let him drop to his death knowing that there was no possible way for him to survive (and yet still think he may still be alive because... plot sense?)

[Vander]

I dont agree. Kaladins oaths are to protect those who cant petect themselves basically.He would basically just be nightblood if all he should do is kill everyone who has a chance of hurting people. He doesnt KILL to protect unless he absolutely has to. Plus people who are paragons of virtue dont kill out of mercy. Basically kaladin wholly rejects that notion when it comes to killing Elokhar(it would be a mercy kill so Alethkar can survive, or some such nonsense).

*EDIT* And I may be mistaken, but didnt Syl know Szeth wasnt a Radiant after his & Kals first meet up? Thought she could tell because he didnt have a spren. Or maybe Im mixing up info from Szeth POV from WoK?

And when it comes to Kal retrieving the Honorblade instead of Szeths body, Syl did basically scream a command that he NEEDED to recover that Honorblade. And he did JUST resurrect her, so I can forgive that. Plus Szeth wasnt truly the danger in that situation. The Honorblade was the true danger (at least to me). You cant risk somebody else finding it and having to rinse & repeat the Szeth arc with someone else. Plus mercy killing is just an excuse a lot of toons use to justify their revenge.

I hadn't noticed this one earlier, though. And no, he would be nothing like Nightblood. Killing one dangerous and insane man who has already caused major problems is different from killing anything you deem evil. Thus, he WOULD be protecting.

 

I was using the paragon of virtue statement to say that, through not killing Szeth, Brandon tried to make Kaladin such a thing. And, while he is Radiant, he is by no means a priest.

 

Elhokar was quite different. He was slightly idiotic, and weak, but not dangerous of himself. That cannot be deemed a mercy killing.

 

According to others, she DID tell him. Still, I've already said in an above point why that didn't really matter, through a character's most likely train of thought.

 

Again, Syl: So, his reasoning was (and note that I'm now working from the perspective of the argument FOR the tweak): "Hmm, my ideals and everything Syl has taught me tells me to spare, but now, in the heat of the moment, she's telling me to let him go. Well, she's probably more calm just now. Right?" 

 

About Mercy Killings: They are FAR from toonish. Sometimes, if a person is too far gone, (and at least in Kal's eyes, he was) then they should be killed as quickly as possible, so that their pain nor the danger they pose is increased. 

[Blightsong]

I hadn't noticed this one earlier, though. And no, he would be nothing like Nightblood. Killing one dangerous and insane man who has already caused major problems is different from killing anything you deem evil. Thus, he WOULD be protecting.

 

I was using the paragon of virtue statement to say that, through not killing Szeth, Brandon tried to make Kaladin such a thing. And, while he is Radiant, he is by no means a priest.

 

Elhokar was quite different. He was slightly idiotic, and weak, but not dangerous of himself. That cannot be deemed a mercy killing.

 

According to others, she DID tell him. Still, I've already said in an above point why that didn't really matter, through a character's most likely train of thought.

 

Again, Syl: So, his reasoning was (and note that I'm now working from the perspective of the argument FOR the tweak): "Hmm, my ideals and everything Syl has taught me tells me to spare, but now, in the heat of the moment, she's telling me to let him go. Well, she's probably more calm just now. Right?" 

 

About Mercy Killings: They are FAR from toonish. Sometimes, if a person is too far gone, (and at least in Kal's eyes, he was) then they should be killed as quickly as possible, so that their pain nor the danger they pose is increased.

I think a common misunderstanding within the Cosmere is that Honor and the nights are inherently good. Honor simply means to fulfill an obligation or keep a promise. One can still be vengeful and unmerciful while being honorable. Nothing in his oaths says anything about being merciful, and Kaladin himself is quite a vengeful man. Radiants can make decisions, even important ones, that have nothing to do with their oaths or their ideals. I would also like to point out that making someone love with the terrible things they have done has nothing to do with the Skybreakers. This simply view law above else, if this means punishment then ok, if it doesn't than ok. I also don't see why a Windrunner can't want someone to be punished for mass killings, ect. Windrunners don't have to disrespect law to be a Windrunner. As I said earlier, I think things like that are down to the personality and beliefs of the Radiant.

Your reasoning for why Kaladin would think Szeth would still be a threat is incredibly faulty, realmatically and otherwise. Why would Kaladin think that Szeth could save up his Stormlight because he glows dimmer if Kaladin know that storing stormlight makes you glow brightly? Besides, Syl says to him before the fight (I think after Kal and Szeth's first fight) that Szeth was consuming much higher levels of stormlight than Kal. She even mentions that it is because of the blade, and that the blade is the reason Szeth is able to surgebind. So why would Kaladin, having been told by Syl that Szeth has unbonded the Honorblade, would he think that a man with two shard dead limbs be a threat, in the immediate fight, or even in any future encounter. Kalsdin knew the moment Syl told him the blade was unbonded that Szeth was now a shard less, non surgebinder cripple.

I don't even know what your talking about when you say Kaladin blamed Szeth for Tien's deaths. I went back and read from where Kaladin gets to the final battle to where Szeth dies and I see nothing like that come out of Kaladin's mouth.

As for "why didn't Syl just tell him to kill Szeth and go for the sword after he was dead, if he was going to die anyways.". Syl and Kal cant read each others minds, atleast not yet, and Kla decision to not kill Szeth was a split second decision. Syl ended up believing that the blade was, and probably is, important enough for a mass murdering psychopath to die over. Syl probably wasn't of the same mind set of Kal, that Szeth should pay for what he had done. Syl and Kal can have different opinions on what to do, and if it doesn't interfere with his oaths (which it definately doesn't in this case. No one was in danger or in need of protection, exept Szeth I guess and it I'm not sure it would have been "right" to protect him, or kill him. It was kind of a grey area, leaving Kal to make the decision.) then he could do what he felt was right, which he did.

[Vander]

I think a common misunderstanding within the Cosmere is that Honor and the nights are inherently good. Honor simply means to fulfill an obligation or keep a promise. One can still be vengeful and unmerciful while being honorable. Nothing in his oaths says anything about being merciful, and Kaladin himself is quite a vengeful man. Radiants can make decisions, even important ones, that have nothing to do with their oaths or their ideals. I would also like to point out that making someone love with the terrible things they have done has nothing to do with the Skybreakers. This simply view law above else, if this means punishment then ok, if it doesn't than ok. I also don't see why a Windrunner can't want someone to be punished for mass killings, ect. Windrunners don't have to disrespect law to be a Windrunner. As I said earlier, I think things like that are down to the personality and beliefs of the Radiant.

Your reasoning for why Kaladin would think Szeth would still be a threat is incredibly faulty, realmatically and otherwise. Why would Kaladin think that Szeth could save up his Stormlight because he glows dimmer if Kaladin know that storing stormlight makes you glow brightly? Besides, Syl says to him before the fight (I think after Kal and Szeth's first fight) that Szeth was consuming much higher levels of stormlight than Kal. She even mentions that it is because of the blade, and that the blade is the reason Szeth is able to surgebind. So why would Kaladin, having been told by Syl that Szeth has unbonded the Honorblade, would he think that a man with two shard dead limbs be a threat, in the immediate fight, or even in any future encounter. Kalsdin knew the moment Syl told him the blade was unbonded that Szeth was now a shard less, non surgebinder cripple.

I don't even know what your talking about when you say Kaladin blamed Szeth for Tien's deaths. I went back and read from where Kaladin gets to the final battle to where Szeth dies and I see nothing like that come out of Kaladin's mouth.

As for "why didn't Syl just tell him to kill Szeth and go for the sword after he was dead, if he was going to die anyways.". Syl and Kal cant read each others minds, atleast not yet, and Kla decision to not kill Szeth was a split second decision. Syl ended up believing that the blade was, and probably is, important enough for a mass murdering psychopath to die over. Syl probably wasn't of the same mind set of Kal, that Szeth should pay for what he had done. Syl and Kal can have different opinions on what to do, and if it doesn't interfere with his oaths (which it definately doesn't in this case. No one was in danger or in need of protection, exept Szeth I guess and it I'm not sure it would have been "right" to protect him, or kill him. It was kind of a grey area, leaving Kal to make the decision.) then he could do what he felt was right, which he did.

 

I read back, and found that he was referring to Elhokar being the cause for Tien's death. As such, the vengeance thing doesn't stand. Sorry about that. However, I still cannot condone the change, because of the fact that it was solely meant to make Kal even more of the good guy. What it ended up being, however, was : "I won't kill him myself, but the storm can do that for me." Further, he would still have thought Szeth was a danger and HAD to be killed, because of this:

 

Stormlight can be saved up, though it diffuses slowly if I recall correctly. I said that Szeth, in Kaladin's eyes, may have been saving up Stormlight to heal Shardwounds, and focusing then on fighting, BECAUSE his Blade consumed more Stormlight to work. If he tried to both stay up and heal simultaneously, it may have consumed too much at once and caused his lashing to cease: Though he would have recharged, it would have left him OPEN TO ATTACK as well. However, if he managed to escape, he could have healed the wounds, and gone on to kill more. 

 

Further, Syl only told Kaladin that the Blade was unbonded AFTER the strike. Kaladin still had every reason to be going through with the killing.

[Blightsong]

I read back, and found that he was referring to Elhokar being the cause for Tien's death. As such, the vengeance thing doesn't stand. Sorry about that. However, I still cannot condone the change, because of the fact that it was solely meant to make Kal even more of the good guy. What it ended up being, however, was : "I won't kill him myself, but the storm can do that for me." Further, he would still have thought Szeth was a danger and HAD to be killed, because of this:

 

Stormlight can be saved up, though it diffuses slowly if I recall correctly. I said that Szeth, in Kaladin's eyes, may have been saving up Stormlight to heal Shardwounds, and focusing then on fighting, BECAUSE his Blade consumed more Stormlight to work. If he tried to both stay up and heal simultaneously, it may have consumed too much at once and caused his lashing to cease: Though he would have recharged, it would have left him OPEN TO ATTACK as well. However, if he managed to escape, he could have healed the wounds, and gone on to kill more. 

 

Further, Syl only told Kaladin that the Blade was unbonded AFTER the strike. Kaladin still had every reason to be going through with the killing.

Stormlight cannot be saved up, only held in, which causes the skin to glow. That's just not how it works. When Kal saw a non-glowing Szeth with his eyes closed, knowing that he had two sharddeadded appendages, I doubt he would have jumped to the realmatically false conclusion that he was still a physical threat.

I don't understand why it's so hard to stomach Kaladin believing that Szeth should be punished, but that his punishment was not worth losing a Honorblade over. It's in line with the character and what he has done in the past and I don't see why you think it's "disgusting". Even if you don't like I don't understand why it has to be as bad as you seem to think it is.

[Vander]

Stormlight cannot be saved up, only held in, which causes the skin to glow. That's just not how it works. When Kal saw a non-glowing Szeth with his eyes closed, knowing that he had two sharddeadded appendages, I doubt he would have jumped to the realmatically false conclusion that he was still a physical threat.

I don't understand why it's so hard to stomach Kaladin believing that Szeth should be punished, but that his punishment was not worth losing a Honorblade over. It's in line with the character and what he has done in the past and I don't see why you think it's "disgusting". Even if you don't like I don't understand why it has to be as bad as you seem to think it is.

"Held in" is what I mean by saved up... As in, he was cutting back on expending Stormlight lest he run out and have to recharge mid-fight. While recharging isn't difficult, the momentary lapse in concentration in both concentration and Lashings could prove fatal against an experienced warrior, which Szeth KNEW Kaladin was.

 

Also, I REALLY don't understand why you completely ignored my point on the fact that he could not have known that Szeth could not heal Shardwounds. This is ESSENTIAL to why I say that even if he was disabled like that, he may still have been a threat. Kal did not know that Szeth had unbonded until after he struck; there was no reason for him to change the path of his blade.

 

It's hard to stomach, as you say, because I feel that KILLING Szeth was in line with the character, and sparing him is out of line. Kaladin's goal is to protect, and even the possibility of Szeth posing a threat would have been a decider. You completely ignored my statement as to why Kal would still have thought Szeth dangerous, and thus necessary to kill: it is another point which is essential to my argument.

 

Also, I don't feel disgusted with the fact that Kaladin spared him in the new version; I'm disgusted by the fact that Brandon felt compelled to change it to that.

[Blightsong]

"Held in" is what I mean by saved up... As in, he was cutting back on expending Stormlight lest he run out and have to recharge mid-fight. While recharging isn't difficult, the momentary lapse in concentration in both concentration and Lashings could prove fatal against an experienced warrior, which Szeth KNEW Kaladin was.

 

Also, I REALLY don't understand why you completely ignored my point on the fact that he could not have known that Szeth could not heal Shardwounds. This is ESSENTIAL to why I say that even if he was disabled like that, he may still have been a threat. Kal did not know that Szeth had unbonded until after he struck; there was no reason for him to change the path of his blade.

 

It's hard to stomach, as you say, because I feel that KILLING Szeth was in line with the character, and sparing him is out of line. Kaladin's goal is to protect, and even the possibility of Szeth posing a threat would have been a decider. You completely ignored my statement as to why Kal would still have thought Szeth dangerous, and thus necessary to kill: it is another point which is essential to my argument.

 

Also, I don't feel disgusted with the fact that Kaladin spared him in the new version; I'm disgusted by the fact that Brandon felt compelled to change it to that.

I did address your statement... "Kaladin saw an un-glowing Szeth". No glow, no stormlight, no heal, no threat. Kaladin obviously believed that if he could not kill Szeth that would be optimal, and at this point he was kicking Szeth's chull. If he could protect and not kill, that is optimal for Kal. I don't see why that is so bad.