DocHoliday Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I know these things are recorded somewhere, I'm just building my tower of reasoning. So we know from Mistborn that those who have Allowmancy do so based on who their parents were. It is passed down genetically. We also know that Allowmancers were rare prior to Rashek handing out Lerasium. And while still 'rare' they are considerably more common. Since Lerasium is concentrated Investiture. We can conclude that Investiture is passed down, somewhat diluted, over time. The Nobility marry amongst the other Nobility and keep the Investiture as 'pure' as possible. On paper anyway. When they have children with Skaa however that Investiture is introduced into a new genre pool. So the half breeds might have Allowmancy, but very really would enough Investiture be present for Mistborn. Bear with me. This is the speculative part. There are some minor spoilers for WoK. At the end of WoK, Wit says that there was a good reason that the system of Lighteyes and Dark eyes exists. I speculate that Lighteyes are a form of Investiture. We know from Feverstone keep that Darkeyes used to be authoritative figures. That the KR that Dalinar stops has Irises so pale, they appear white. This is a shock to Dalinar. I nsuspect that he had never seen eyes with that much Light. Since the Recreance there have been no Surgebinders.(Mostly) Adolin musing about Calling and Glories states that by fulfilling these you grow closer to the Almighty, but also that Lighteyes have more innate Glory than Darkeyes. During Kaladin's flashbacks we learn that if he married a Lighteyes, then his children could either be Darkeyes or Lighteyes. There are enough similarities between the 2 series that I think it's plausible the Lighteyes are some form of Investiture being passed down. Whether this from KR or other Surgebinders or something else is indeterminate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadiantNights Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm not quite sure about this theory. Who gets chosen to be a radiant isn't determined by their family but because their actions attract specific spren. Kaladin is on his way to being a radiant because syl noticed how he always tried to protect the weak and how he cared so much about his friends. The kholins have also attracted the spren because they seem to be the only rulers who still have integrity and honor and class. Though I can't really say that about elhokar. Also how would any darkeyed people become radiants if it was passed down through the lighteyed families? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 It should also be noted that Magic isn't really hereditary on Roshar. You can only attract surgebinding Spren through your actions, not from having the correct pedigree. Being a surgebinder/picking up a shardblade apparently had some effect on your spiritual DNA, but I am not sure it is correct to claim that it elevated your level of investiture, just that it changed your spiritweb, or even just changed how your innate investiture expressed itself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknowingly Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I would also like to point out that the reason (probably, this is just speculation) that the light eyes are viewed as superior is a remnant of people thinking that the Knights Radiant were superior humans and a sign of a Knight Radiant is light(glowing) eyes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 We still have the quote from Hoid that there is a good reason for lighteyes being in charge. This suggests to me that there could be some kind of additional investiture or something to make a lighteyes different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Interesting. +1 from me... it's plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadiantNights Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Everyone keeps saying that the Knight radiants were completely made up of Lighteyes but realize this, we've only seen radiants who have a lot of stormlight in them making their eyes glow. I have deep brown eyes yet if they glowed brightly with stormlight then they would appear as a light Topaz or something like that wouldn't they? I think if some of the radiants released their stormlight some would be darkeyes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 We still have the quote from Hoid that there is a good reason for lighteyes being in charge. This suggests to me that there could be some kind of additional investiture or something to make a lighteyes different. What exactly is the quote or in what chapter is it located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 At the Recreance vision, after they abandoned the Shards, Dalinar accosts one of the former Radiants. He is not described as glowing at that point. Dalinar describes him as : His eyes were of the lightest blue. Unnaturally so, in fact - the irises were nearly white. We have not seen all the Radiants ever, so we can't prove that when some of the Radiants are not infusing, they are not darkeyes. Brandon has said that not all knights were armed. Knights without Shards could have easily been darkeyed. So far all the evidence that I have seen points to Radiant Shardbearers as lighteyed, however. Do you have some textual support for the idea that some Shardbearing Radiants are darkeyed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Ha, maybe lighteyes are descendants of the Radiants? Not those that got the shards, but actual KR ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadiantNights Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) What exactly is the quote or in what chapter is it located? The quote he's referencing is from the epilogue. Here it is..."And, of course, there was a reason the people did what they did. Well, there was usually a reason. In this case, it just happened to be a good one." to give you some context he said this right after he talks about how leadership based on eye color was not that weird compared to the other governing systems he's seen. Do you have some textual support for the idea that some Shardbearing Radiants are darkeyed?No, no textual evidence but seeing how the spren chose their partner based on their actions or personality it seems highly unlikely that all the radiants have lighteyes. That would pretty much mean darkeyed people of that time didn't have morals or honor or other attributes that the spren look for. Edited January 9, 2014 by RadiantNights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstSelector Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 One's actions cannot be the only determining factor for becoming a Surgebinder - there must be some sort of sDNA that determines which two of ten magic systems you will have access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) The ... No, no textual evidence but seeing how the spren chose their partner based on their actions or personality it seems highly unlikely that all the radiants have lighteyes. That would pretty much mean darkeyed people of that time didn't have morals or honor or other attributes that the spren look for. Or that Shardblades lighten one's eyes, as it says in the text. So spren could choose virtuous darkeyed people, but the process of becoming a Radiant Shardbearer would cause the irises to lighten. The eyes, in particular seem to link to another realm (spiritual?) which may be why they burn out and maybe where the blades go when not summoned. As I said before, I don't know about knights that don't have Shards. And really, I am going from the text saying that taking up Shards lightens the eyes and maybe 3 examples in the text. Really, it just seems to explain how the Recreance era society, which had darkeyes in positions of authority, became the lighteyed-nobility society we see now. Edited January 9, 2014 by hoser 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 One's actions cannot be the only determining factor for becoming a Surgebinder - there must be some sort of sDNA that determines which two of ten magic systems you will have access to. One's actions determine what kind of spren he attracts, then the spren will bond with that person, and modify his sDNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I am not trying to imply that Rosharans Darkeyes have no Investiture, or that they are immoral as a group. Sadeas is proof of that. It just seems interesting to me that a KR (specifically ANY person) has super pale eyes, and that Modern Rosharans have a diminished form of the same attribute. Similar to the power levels exhibited by Elend v. Vin. Lerasium rewrites the SWeb with more Investiture than was originally there. On Scadrial Investiture is passed on genetically. I see no reason why Roshar should be different in this manner. That is not to say that additional Investiture cannot be gained by Rosharans, specifically the Nahel-bond. However additional Investiture, does not necessarily mean additional magic. Sylphrena is very specific when she says that SHE is responsible for the changes Kaladin is exhibiting. Which is the 3 Lashings and general "Awesomeness". I quote Adolin because I believe the Vorinism has taken the idea of Investiture (essentially Godliness) and warped it into something different. Callings and Glories. EDIT: Or another way of putting it, Vorinism has warped the teachings of Nohadon (whom I believe responsible for restricting the Nahel-bond to Honor Spren) reflect how acting with Honor brings one closer to the Almighty (more Investiture ). Edited January 9, 2014 by DocHoliday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I am not trying to imply that Rosharans Darkeyes have no Investiture, or that they are immoral as a group. Sadeas is proof of that. It just seems interesting to me that a KR (specifically ANY person) has super pale eyes, and that Modern Rosharans have a diminished form of the same attribute. Similar to the power levels exhibited by Elend v. Vin. Lerasium rewrites the SWeb with more Investiture than was originally there. On Scadrial Investiture is passed on genetically. I see no reason why Roshar should be different in this manner. That is not to say that additional Investiture cannot be gained by Rosharans, specifically the Nahel-bond. However additional Investiture, does not necessarily mean additional magic. Sylphrena is very specific when she says that SHE is responsible for the changes Kaladin is exhibiting. Which is the 3 Lashings and general "Awesomeness". I quote Adolin because I believe the Vorinism has taken the idea of Investiture (essentially Godliness) and warped it into something different. Callings and Glories. You've read the book too. I know nothing. Brandon has said that who gets magic is based on one's actions on Roshar (this is a paraphrase, I can look up the quote if you want). The way one becomes a magic user is different on each of the different planets we've seen. What makes you believe Scadrial should be the same as Roshar? The lightened eyes do seem to be passed genetically, but I am aware of no evidence supporting enhanced investiture or virtue among lighteyes. Given word of the author versus no evidence, I know how I lean. But hey, your way of enjoying the books is and your opinion are no less valid. I just want to share the information I know. You can make your own judgments and laugh at me when the things I say are proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 You've read the book too. I know nothing. Brandon has said that who gets magic is based on one's actions on Roshar (this is a paraphrase, I can look up the quote if you want). The way one becomes a magic user is different on each of the different planets we've seen. What makes you believe Scadrial should be the same as Roshar? The lightened eyes do seem to be passed genetically, but I am aware of no evidence supporting enhanced investiture or virtue among lighteyes. Given word of the author versus no evidence, I know how I lean. But hey, your way of enjoying the books is and your opinion are no less valid. I just want to share the information I know. You can make your own judgments and laugh at me when the things I say are proven wrong. That's kind of harsh Hoser. I don't see how we're disagreeing here, given that were rewording what the other is saying. Surge-binding is a result of the Nahel-bond, yes? (Szeth is an exception) Surge-binding is magic, yes? Acting in accordance with Honor is what attracts spren to form a Nahel-bond, granting magic. You can have all the Investiture in the world (Sadeas), and not have a Nahel-bond granting you access to Surge-binding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Sorry, what? Did I offend somehow? That's kind of harsh Hoser. I don't see how we're disagreeing here, given that were rewording what the other is saying. Surge-binding is a result of the Nahel-bond, yes? (Szeth is an exception) Surge-binding is magic, yes? Acting in accordance with Honor is what attracts spren to form a Nahel-bond, granting magic. You can have all the Investiture in the world (Sadeas), and not have a Nahel-bond granting you access to Surge-binding. Sadeas carries some invested objects. His SDNA/DNA carries markers that his ancestors carried certain invested objects. I don't believe that he has any more investiture than any other human Rosharan would have five seconds after picking up a Shardblade (assuming that he is not secretly a voidbringer or a Surgebinder). I believe the eye color is genetic, but it doesn't make anyone more magical. I did not mean to be harsh or hurtful. I apologize and beg that you let me know what was hurtful. I thought I was disagreeing with you about investiture being passed genetically based on this statement: "On Scadrial Investiture is passed on genetically. I see no reason why Roshar should be different in this manner." I believe Roshar is very different from Scadrial in this manner. I also don't want to talk about Scadrial in this forum, as some people may not have read the Mistborn books and I don't want to spoilerize them. What am I missing? Edited January 9, 2014 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 i read your post with a heavy amount of sarcasm. My sincere apologies if I was incorrect. Dang internet, 2/3 of communication is tone and body language. "Sadeas carries some invested objects. His SDNA/DNA carries markers that his ancestors carried certain invested objects. I don't believe that he has any more investiture than any other human Rosharan would have five seconds after picking up a Shardblade (assuming that he is not secretly a voidbringer or a Surgebinder). I believe the eye color is genetic, but it doesn't make anyone more magical." I think this is the point we disagree upon, I think think that Shardblade is unimportant, but the Surge-binding is, as evidenced by Szeth change of aeye color as well as Kaladin's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 i read your post with a heavy amount of sarcasm. My sincere apologies if I was incorrect. Dang internet, 2/3 of communication is tone and body language. "Sadeas carries some invested objects. His SDNA/DNA carries markers that his ancestors carried certain invested objects. I don't believe that he has any more investiture than any other human Rosharan would have five seconds after picking up a Shardblade (assuming that he is not secretly a voidbringer or a Surgebinder). I believe the eye color is genetic, but it doesn't make anyone more magical." I think this is the point we disagree upon, I think think that Shardblade is unimportant, but the Surge-binding is, as evidenced by Szeth change of aeye color as well as Kaladin's. I think we agree that Surgebinding is important and Shardblade unimportant (aside from being an invested object itself). I think it is the genetic component about which we are disagreeing. No sarcasm intended. Fatuousness, verbosity and self-deprecation come naturally, unfortunately. I'm working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I am probably missing something but assuming that picking up a blade lightens your eye colour (unsubstantiated as far as I know - ref: conversation between Kal and Laral; (Debunked by WoB / Feverstone keep?)). Could that not be enough to change your sDNA (assuming this means surge/binding? DNA) for procreation purposes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I am probably missing something but assuming that picking up a blade lightens your eye colour (unsubstantiated as far as I know - ref: conversation between Kal and Laral; (Debunked by WoB / Feverstone keep?)). Could that not be enough to change your sDNA (assuming this means surge/binding? DNA) for procreation purposes? Picking up the Radiantblade presumably changes the eye color and allows you to retrieve the sword from wherever they go (spiritual realm). SDNA is presumably like DNA: there are many different possible changes. There seems to be nothing linking the changes associated with Radiantblades (post-Recreance) and Surgebinding that I am aware of. What seems to give surgebinding is a Nahel Spren bond, which we have word of Brandon that it is not genetically passed on. Am I misunderstanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Picking up the Radiantblade presumably changes the eye color and allows you to retrieve the sword from wherever they go (spiritual realm). SDNA is presumably like DNA: there are many different possible changes. There seems to be nothing linking the changes associated with Radiantblades (post-Recreance) and Surgebinding that I am aware of. What seems to give surgebinding is a Nahel Spren bond, which we have word of Brandon that it is not genetically passed on. Am I misunderstanding? Maybe I am geting my wires crossed. I was questioning whether picking up a Shardblade was enough to permenantly lighten your eye colour genetically, or whether a Nahal bond was required. I suppose we need a darkeyes to win and lose a shardblade (without their eyes being burned out) to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 From what we know, no Radiantblade bearer or descendent of multiple radiantblade bearers is darkeyed (unless of mostly darkeyed descent). Unless we assume that all Shardbearers have married descendents of Radiants, doesn't that answer the question? I assume that at least some of the current lighteyes are descended from people who picked up Shards at the Recreance and never had a Nahel Bond. Is that wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Do we know for sure that a shardblade causes its wielder's eyes to turn light permanently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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