Lighteye Investiture

[Aether he/him]

Do we know for sure that a shardblade causes its wielder's eyes to turn light permanently?

Rosharans seem to firmly believe this, but several people on this forum suspect this not to be true. In-world, Kaladin also voices doubts about this commonly held belief.

[DocHoliday he/him]

I am probably missing something but assuming that picking up a blade lightens your eye colour (unsubstantiated as far as I know - ref: conversation between Kal and Laral; (Debunked by WoB / Feverstone keep?)).  Could that not be enough to change your sDNA (assuming this means surge/binding? DNA) for procreation purposes?

My personal Theory, is that this is one of the forms of corruption of Vorinism. Basically I believe that Vorinism has connected the dots to draw the wrong picture:

Radiant has Shardblade> Radiant has Light eyes>  Therefore Shardbearer has Lighteyes.

 

Thing is we don't see anyone's eyes getting lighter or brighter or glow when they pick up a Shardblade.

We DO see this occur in Surgebinders everywhere. 

 

From what we know, no Radiantblade bearer or descendent of multiple radiantblade bearers is darkeyed (unless of mostly darkeyed descent).  Unless we assume that all Shardbearers have married descendents of Radiants, doesn't that answer the question?

Anybody who had a Shardblade at the keep had to lie about obtaining it. The KR are blamed for 'betraying' mankind after all. Assuming that, any Darkeyes who married, would've married off well. Seeing how they've got an indestructible weapon that your family can't take after all.. 

This assumes that the Lighteyes were more affluent during the Recreance

 

 

I assume that at least some of the current lighteyes are descended from people who picked up Shards at the Recreance and never had a Nahel Bond.  Is that wrong?    

 

I'm certain that some ARE descended from those Darkeyes, but enough. Marriages into Lighteyes would eventually erase the Darkeyes attribute from the family.

[IllNsickly he/him]

I have posted in another thread that i think "Lighteyes" has been taken in the wromg context.. i dont think it has anything to do with the COLOUR of a persons eyes..

On Roshar, it has come to reference the colour, but i think the histories have made this the case.

My contention:

After seeing a few of Dalinars visions and having seen Kaladin whilst Surgebinding, is that "Lighteyes" was originally much more literal.

As in eyes are ILLUMINATED. Whether brown, green, hazel, blue or any of the eye colours present on roshar.. As a result of holding Stormlight.

In that context Colour is irrelevant.

Does anyone support me in this?

Edited January 10, 2014 by IllNsickly

[marianmi]

I have posted in another thread that i think "Lighteyes" has been taken in the wromg context.. i dont think it has anything to do with the COLOUR of a persons eyes..

On Roshar, it has come to reference the colour, but i think the histories have made this the case.

My contention:

After seeing a few of Dalinars visions and having seen Kaladin whilst Surgebinding, is that "Lighteyes" was originally much more literal.

As in eyes are ILLUMINATED. Whether brown, green, hazel, blue or any of the eye colours present on roshar.. As a result of holding Stormlight.

In that context Colour is irrelevant.

Does anyone support me in this?

 

 

Yeah, might be possible.

[Cayron]

There are two points that I think you should be aware of.

 

Brandon Sanderson said something along the lines of (no I don't know where, picked up the link on this forum some time ago, though )

that Shard Blades are different. So Szeth's Blade and the Blade that Shallan's brother had when Kaladin killed him were different. 

I think that Szeth's Blade gives the ability to surgebind to him, while others do not.

 

Not sure if Brandon only implied this or confirmed, though, you'll have to find that on your own, if you want to

Another point is that Szeth's eye colour changes when he summons his Blade. It changes to light green, i think. Its somewhere in the first book. I don't think all Blades change the wielder's eye colour, though.

 

So, no, I don't think that eye colour has any importance regarding one's abilites or class of Surgebinding. I think that the only difference that eye colour makes is by how people are percivied with different eye colour.

[TwistedMisting she/her]

 

Brandon Sanderson said something along the lines of (no I don't know where, picked up the link on this forum some time ago, though )

that Shard Blades are different. So Szeth's Blade and the Blade that Shallan's brother had when Kaladin killed him were different. 

 

Another point is that Szeth's eye colour changes when he summons his Blade. It changes to light green, i think. Its somewhere in the first book. I don't think all Blades change the wielder's eye colour, though.

 

' The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale - almost glowing- sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.'

 

This is from his first interlude (page 178 in the UK paperback edition). I agree that getting a shardblade doesn't change people's eye colour, in the majority of cases. There is something different about Szeth's blade. 

 

Personally, I think the lighteyes do not have any additional investiture. We know that darkeyes used to be in positions of authority from Dalinar's vision at Feverstone Keep, so investiture has nothing to do with who's on top of the social heap. Obviously something happened to reverse the social order.

 

 We also know that anyone can attract a spren, depending on their actions. Kaladin, a darkeyes, bonds with Syl because of his honourable actions. I also agree that the 'lighteyes' thing is to do with the glow of someone infusing stormlight, an ability that is no longer known of by the time of TWoK.

 

And on a less concrete note, I've noticed that Brandon tries not to repeat motifs too much between his books, so saying that magical ability was genetic in Mistborn, therefore it will be on Roshar isn't really a conclusive argument.

[Rybal]

EDIT: Or another way of putting it, Vorinism has warped the teachings of Nohadon (whom I believe responsible for restricting the Nahel-bond to Honor Spren)  reflect how acting with Honor brings one closer to the Almighty (more Investiture ).

 

I think the fact that we have seen at least three other instances (in the released pages) where spren are bonding to future KR is evidence enough that the Nahel bond is not unique to Honor Spren.

 

------------------------

 

We've seen that Szeth's blade changes his eye color, though only when he has it. Rather than this being an aspect of Shardblades themselves, I think that it is more likely an aspect unique to his blade.

 

It is the prevailing belief on Roshar that obtaining a Shardblade (bonding with it, for lack of a better term, since it seems to react only to its owner) makes the user a lighteyes. Cases of darkeyes obtaining Shards are going to be rare for obvious reasons and Shardbearers who win them are highly unlikely to pass them on to a darkeyes, if only for the fact that they would have no training in the sword.

 

Chances are that, even among lighteyes, obtaining a Blade changes the eye color (speculation on my part), which would perpetrate this belief system.

 

However, there is the question concerning Kaladin's lightening eyes due to Stormlight. It is safe to assume that Shards are a magic system that is related to Stormlight and requiring it for its very functionality, at least in the case of Plate. Likely, Blades are also linked in some form, due to their being tied to Plate so intimately.

 

The lightening of the eyes, along with the prevailing theory surrounding its occurrence when one obtains a Blade, lends credence to the theory that Knights Radiant form their own weapon and armor as they reach their potential.

 

Right now, Kaladin's eyes lighten according to the amount of Stormlight he has taken in. As he progresses along the path to becoming a Knight Radiant, it will be intriguing to see at what point his eyes become light permanently (and his reaction, given his distaste and distrust of lighteyes).

 

Could the lightening of the eyes be tied directly to Stormlight, either through Surgebinding or Shards? Would that make the original Shards more like concentrated Stormlight that can't be taken in? (wild speculation) Once a person has been around enough Stormlight for a long enough period of time (not including the trapped Stormlight in gems/fabrials) . . . perhaps that is what causes the lightening of the eyes?

 

That said, there is 100% a genetic component as to whether a child will be light or darkeyed. It is interesting, however, that we have thus far seen evidence suggesting that a darkeyed individual can become a lighteyes, but not the reverse. I wonder what is ultimately going to end up happening.

[Chlehrma]

Rybal, I think you are correct about Kaladin's eyes as he progresses to Radiant status. The eye color change associated with shard blades is probably due to some blades being like Szeth's or because of a long forgotten association between radiant eye color and their having carried shard blades.

Szeth's eyes changing color has to do with his shard blade--though I do not know if it is one of the Lost dawn shards or an Honorblade. I lean toward the former since Honorblades are described as works of art and his blade is not described as a work of art. His eyes changing from green to blue is a bit strange--it's like it takes away the yellow component of his eye color. I wonder if this is significant in any way. Would brown eyed people using his blade get violet eyes?

Doc, It would not surprise me if the entire idea of light eyes being superior and meant to rule is because of the fallacious argument you summarize. When a new group fills a power vacuum they often try to find a means of legitimizing their claim, so the idea do radiants having light eyes and those with light colored eyes being fit to rule is not as stretch. Also, since the radiants lived all over Alethkar, it is even less surprising that eye color would be used to determine the ruling class.

Investiture for humans and parshmen/parshendi on Roshar seems to be directly linked to spren. That being said, spren are the ones with innate investiture.

[Kadrok she/her]

If I may:

 

There are at least some hereditary magics on Roshar as demonstrated by the Aimians.You could argue that their shapeshifting isn't strictly magic in the investiture sense (I imagine the same is true for Kandra shapeshifting), and you may be right, but all I want to note is that there are super-human, seemingly magical things at work on Roshar that are hereditary. 99% of Rosharan "magic" may be driven by actions, and that is fair enough, but there are at least some hereditary properties at work, and being light eyes may be one of these.

 

Given that hereditary "magical" properties aren't completely absent from Roshar, let me propose something I imagine has been proposed before... the "light eyes" trait is a marker of someone's ability to feel the Thrill.

 

As far as I know, this is what we know about the Thrill:

Q: Is the Thrill, with a capital 'T', more than an adrenaline rush or battle rush?  (I indicated that it seemed very clear to e that there was a lot more to it.

 

A:  Brandon wrote the answer to this in my book that he was signing by writing "You are a very smart man!"

 

Q:  Is the Thrill an exclusively lighteyed trait?

 

A: RAFO

 

Q: In response to the RAFO I complained that I didn't even get to my third question which was does Kaladin feel the Thrill?

 

A:  He laughed and said, No he does not. Kaladin is "immune" to the Thrill.

 

Q: I then pointed out the basis for my theory beginning with the flashback chapter where Kaladin whales on Jost with the quarterstaff.

 

A: Brandon then said, "What you didn't ask was whether Kaladin had ever felt the Thrill".   He then went on to say that that was not a confirmation or a denial.

 

Brandon's cryptic answer does present potential issues for this suggestion.

 

Regardless, what I am proposing is that just as the Aimians are a distinct human racial group with the ability to shapeshift, so to are the light eyes a distinct racial group with the ability to feel (or perhaps the vulnerability to) the Thrill. Thoughts?

[Swimmingly he/him]

If I may:

 

There are at least some hereditary magics on Roshar as demonstrated by the Aimians.You could argue that their shapeshifting isn't strictly magic in the investiture sense (I imagine the same is true for Kandra shapeshifting), and you may be right, but all I want to note is that there are super-human, seemingly magical things at work on Roshar that are hereditary. 99% of Rosharan "magic" may be driven by actions, and that is fair enough, but there are at least some hereditary properties at work, and being light eyes may be one of these.

 

Given that hereditary "magical" properties aren't completely absent from Roshar, let me propose something I imagine has been proposed before... the "light eyes" trait is a marker of someone's ability to feel the Thrill.

 

As far as I know, this is what we know about the Thrill:

 

Brandon's cryptic answer does present potential issues for this suggestion.

 

Regardless, what I am proposing is that just as the Aimians are a distinct human racial group with the ability to shapeshift, so to are the light eyes a distinct racial group with the ability to feel (or perhaps the vulnerability to) the Thrill. Thoughts?

I didn't have the Aimians even pegged as human, given the whole "centuries-lifespan, shapeshifting, cursed-race" thing

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

I didn't have the Aimians even pegged as human, given the whole "centuries-lifespan, shapeshifting, cursed-race" thing

Brandon stated in the cosmere questions and answer thread that Aimians are not human

The Parshendi are not human, but you probably already knew that. The two races of Aimaians are not human either. There are many races of sentient spren. From there, it depends if you call something like Ryshadium sentient or not.

[Kyzkle he/him]

I wouldn't consider what the Aimians do as magic, just a physiological (though fantastic) quirk. As Brandon said, investiture is not hereditary on Roshar. In fact, I would say it's not even hereditary on Scadrial, as it operates by altering sDNA which is passed down in generations. The investiture itself isn't passed, just it's effects. The alterations made by sDNA just allow the Allomancer access to the actual power behind allomancy.

 

In regards to the Thrill, my bet is that it's tied to Odium somehow. Kaladin could be "immune" to it because he doesn't fight for glory or the joy of it; he fights to keep the people around him from dying. Whether or not he can really kill to protect, Kaladin's belief that he is may be what's keeping him from it. (side note: if BS really used the word "immune" when referring to the absence of the Thrill, I think we can safely say that it is not a good thing, and that it is being afflicted ON things by an external force)

[Xavien]

It has been a long time since I have read the forums so some of this may be faulty memory.

 

I always thought that the Thrill was related to the Alethi. I remember reading that each of the 10 nations of the silver kingdoms were built around a role that they were to play during the desolation and the recovery.  For the Alethi this was fighting, there entire culture is based around battle making the Thrill, a very useful ability to have on the battlefield.  If heredity is related to any ability than I think it would be these "nation abilities" for them to play out their role. And if this is related to investiture and the lighteyes/darkeyes it could simply mean that those with lighteyes have a stronger nation ability than the darkeyes.

 

I think we have seen another nation ability already: Memory.  The ability to perfectly remember something you glimpse for only an instant and disappears once you commit that Memory to paper?  Pretty useful for artists...as well as historians and those tasked with preserving knowledge through a Desolation. Not to mention how useful this would also be for people acting as scouts/spies.  No idea if this is the ability of Jah Keved/Valhav, simply don't know enough about that nations values. Not to mention Shallan's red hair is considered rare so she may have gotten the ability from somewhere else in her bloodline.

 

Have we glimpsed any others? The only other group which we seem to have a little knowledge about their national pastime are the Shin who revere farmers in the same way the Alethi revere warriors.

[karaokeang she/her]

I just want to point out that when the Lord ruler picked up the power he modified the genetic makeup of the people on Scadrial. The serfs were different than the nobles in order to work outside in the ashy environment caused by his moving the whole planet. Vin only was able to become a mist born because her dad was a noble.

[Samurai]

This is an interesting discussion but what I always thought was going on was that all KR could infuse storm-light which cause a person too subtly or not so subtly glow.  Most notably the eyes, give the appearance of have eyes of light, light eyes.  Therefor i think problem is a misinterpretation the text that reference the right of light-eyes to rule to mean light colored eyes rather then the original Light or Lit Eyes.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Samurai

[DocHoliday he/him]

A point that I evidently never made earlier:

An individual can have all the Investiture in the world and not be able to access magic. Vin has a very powerful inherent ability to use Allowmancy, but without metal she's just another Joe. Same goes for Lighteyes, without a Nahel-bond, no Surge-binding.

[Moogle]

I agree that the Lighteyes are probably descended from Radiants or strong Surgebinders. I've speculated (without much to back me up, but I do feel very strongly on it if that counts) that Surgebinders who use a lot of Stormlight become 'savants' in a way similar to Mistborn, which results in their eyecolor being incredibly light. Since this is a change to their sDNA, their children would inherit this change, resulting in the lighteyes.

 

It's not a coincidence that lighteyes tend to have eyecolors which match up with gemstones to me. I almost suspect Surgebinders grow gemhearts of their own, or 'grow' gems in their eyes.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Moogle