Taravangian Interlude Questions

[Oversleep]

I were comparing some epigraphs from my book with the original ones in English, when I spotted something in Taravangian's Interlude. The one when Szeth comes to him to tell him about Kaladin. Mr T. is scared that Szeth will break and turn on him, so he tells Szeth that it must have been somebody with a Honorblade.

Two things:

 

Taravangian breathed in and out, struggling to regain control. He looked to Adrotagia, who sat in the middle of a circle of servants and soldiers, all sworn to the Diagram. "Who is it?" he asked softly. "Who is this Surgebinder?"

"Jasnah's ward?" Adrotagia said.

They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl's brother, before his death.

"No," Taravangian said. "A male. One of Dalinar's family members?" He thought for a time. "We need the Diagram itself."

So Diagram knew about Skybreakers (not surprising), about Helaran and about Shallan being a Surgebinder... But what made him think that Helaran was a Surgebinder? Or maybe he really was?
 

 

They will come. You cannot stop their oaths. Look for those who survive when they should not. That pattern will be your clue.

"The bridgemen," Taravangian whispered.

"What?" Adrotagia asked.

Taravangian looked up, blinking bleary eyes. "Dalinar's bridgemen, the ones he took from Sadeas. Did you read the account of their survival?"

"I didn't think it important. Just another game of power between Sadeas and Dalinar."

"No. It's more." They had survived. Taravangian stood up. "Wake every Alethi sleeper we have; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he's doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal."

"If we find him?" Adrotagia asked.

"We keep him away from Szeth at all costs." Taravangian handed her the Diagram. "Our lives depend upon it. Szeth is a beast who gnaws at his leg to escape his bonds. If he gets free…"

 

But at that point in the book Kaladin already got out of the chasms, so Graves was introduced to Kaladin long ago and Kaladin already broke his bond by deciding to help him. He even told them that he agrees with them.

Is this Interlude anachronical? I doubt it, since Szeth was given an order and went to fulfill it. If it happened earlier he would also had come earlier to kill Dalinar, not in the middle of battle between Voidbringers and Alethi, with two Highstorms colliding. I'm sure he would pick a time when the armies were marching, maybe some time when Dalinar went scouting with a smaller squad of soldiers or something.

If this Interlude happened chronically, then why Graves haven't reported to Taravangian about Kaladin? Even if Moash didn't tell him about Kaladin being Surgebinder, Graves would be able to put two and two together (since there is a passage in Diagram about looking for those who survived when they shouldn't). He must have heard stories about the Stormblessed, who survived a Highstorm and bridgeruns (statistically, Bridge Four had a higher survival rate than others), so of all people somebody familiar with Diagram would realise what's going on.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Oversleep

[Shardbearer]

I would agree that the interlude seems to be chronologically placed. As for why he hadn't reported about Kaladin sooner...

Who knows? Maybe he didn't hear or believe the rumors of his miraculous survival? Maybe that section of the Diagram didn't come to mind. Maybe he did report report it but doesn't have access to a spanareed to send the reports quickly? Maybe he was still working on getting that report ready?

 

Could be plenty of other reasons I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

 

We're probably in for some Moash POVs for the next book, so the answer might be found in there.

[DreamEternal]

About Helaran being a surgebinder, there is also the possibility that when he said training, he meant regular training against assassins, spies and anything a secret society may throw her way, since as far as he knew she was most likely an agent of another secret society.

Edited November 28, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oversleep]

I updated the main post with quotes.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Oversleep

[mirahound]

I think it's possible Graves didn't know what to look for. I seriously doubt Mr. T told his spies every detail of the Diagram, so while stories were being told about Kaladin Stormblessed, and he was certainly being watched, Graves might not have known to send a report about him just yet. In fact, asking him to join their conspiracy might well have been his way of watching Kaladin to determine whether or not he was worth reporting.

[Oversleep]

I think it's possible Graves didn't know what to look for. I seriously doubt Mr. T told his spies every detail of the Diagram, so while stories were being told about Kaladin Stormblessed, and he was certainly being watched, Graves might not have known to send a report about him just yet. In fact, asking him to join their conspiracy might well have been his way of watching Kaladin to determine whether or not he was worth reporting.

probably Mr T hasn't told them everything, they don't need to know Diagram's views on kingship and such, but when you're sending a field agent you can tell them what's important to look for. For example, he would tell everybody to remember what dying person says right before death. Looking for 'those who survived' is also important.

...Wait, how did Taravangian come up with "Favored of the winds"? If he thought that this Surgebinder had access to Regrowth, should he think about Edgedancers or Truthwatchers instead of Windrunners or Skybreakers?

[CthulhuSpren]

 

 

...Wait, how did Taravangian come up with "Favored of the winds"? If he thought that this Surgebinder had access to Regrowth, should he think about Edgedancers or Truthwatchers instead of Windrunners or Skybreakers?

If thats when he tells szeth that they have an honourblade, then I interpreted that as a lie to make sure szeth doesnt veer from his goal, but if its mentioned somewhere else, then I have no clue.

[natc]

Yeah, considering that panic moment I thought it was pretty clear that the Regrowth thing was him talking out of his rear end.

[Oversleep]

Okay, he was telling Szeth lies, so he chose one of the Regrowth Honorblades.
But still, how has he figured out "Favored of the winds"? It could be any possible Radiant Order (maybe besides Bondsmiths, since they are so rare).

Even if he knew that Windrunners are about protecting, it doesn't mean somebody of a different Order wouldn't protect Dalinar from Assassin.

[Shardbearer]

Ok, so from the quote in your updated post, he did get a report on the surviving bridgeman. It seems he and everyone else at first assumed it was part of the powerplay between Dalinar and Sadeas, so they didn't think it indicated a Nahel Bond.

 

Actually, the report was on the surviving bridgemen, so apparently Graves or whoever sent it hadn't heard of Kaladin surviving the Highstorm. Which does seem odd for a spy. Oh well.

 

However, once Mr. T put together that there was a surgebinder among the bridgmen, I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume that a Windrunner was protecting and leading the bridge crew so they would survive impossible odds together.

[Elena]

...Wait, how did Taravangian come up with "Favored of the winds"? If he thought that this Surgebinder had access to Regrowth, should he think about Edgedancers or Truthwatchers instead of Windrunners or Skybreakers?

It seems to me Mr T. came up with the 'Regrowth' lie because he's aware that actual Radiants can heal themselves from Shardblade wounds, even if they don't possess Regrowth and can't heal others. Honorblades don't let you do that unless your Blade gives you Regrowth. Also he probably guessed based on the surges Szeth said Kaladin displayed.

 

As for Helaran, I found that line really interesting. I'm assuming Taravangian meant that he was aware of Helaran being the member of a secret society, not a Surgebinder (he was, after all a Shardbearer). But did he know that back during Way of Kings, when Shallan was around? Also, do we know to which secret society Helaran belonged to? I've seen people assuming he worked with Nalan, but is that ever spelled out in the books? The Sons of Honor are out, and IDK how likely it is that he was in the same society as his father, so another possibility might be him being a (maybe renegate) member of the Diagram. Maybe that's why Mr T. knows about him.

[Oversleep]

It seems to me Mr T. came up with the 'Regrowth' lie because he's aware that actual Radiants can heal themselves from Shardblade wounds, even if they don't possess Regrowth and can't heal others. Honorblades don't let you do that unless your Blade gives you Regrowth. Also he probably guessed based on the surges Szeth said Kaladin displayed.

But how for the tenth name of Almighty he would know that? To know that you need a fight between somebody with Honorblade and Surgebinder with a spren.

One Blade with Taln, seven with the Shins, one with Nalan hunting Surgebinders and it seems he is using it to execute and not many actually tried to fight him. It's possible that none of his targets have sworn enough to possess a Shardblade and stand a chance against Herald with Honorblade. So little (if any) accounts of Surgebinders healing from Honorblade wounds, and I'm sure Nalan would quiet any rumors about himself. So unless some Surgebinder got really lucky not to be instantly killed by Honorblade cut, and had enough Stormlight to heal it, and there was some unbelievably lucky spy of Diagram around who happened to see that...

Szeth has the last Blade and he only encountered one Surgebinder. He didn't know which Order Kaladin belonged to, so Taravangian cannot assume out of thin air that those bonded with spren can heal Honorblade wounds. A better assumption is that it was, in fact an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher.

Also, Szeth hasn't seen Kaladin Surgebinding at that point, so he couldn't tell Mr. T. He only saw Kaladin inhale and radiate Stormlight.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Oversleep

[Shardbearer]

Mr. T seems to know stuff that he shouldn't be able to know, even with super-intelligent deduction. Also, he is familiar with Shin and the Stone Shamanate, so he may have access to information that exists nowhere else.

[Oversleep]

Mr. T seems to know stuff that he shouldn't be able to know, even with super-intelligent deduction. Also, he is familiar with Shin and the Stone Shamanate, so he may have access to information that exists nowhere else.

Hm, I think it's time to post a topic about formation of Diagram. Has anyone already speculated about that?

[Moogle]

But how for the tenth name of Almighty he would know that? To know that you need a fight between somebody with Honorblade and Surgebinder with a spren.

 

I'm sure in the past that Surgebinders fought each other, and they found out that Surgebinders could heal those wounds. Histories of that time exist in books like Words of Radiance (in-world book), even if they're inaccurate. Taravangian can read, and while brilliant may have been able to piece together the truth from the lies.

 

But his Diagram-writing moment, despite his claims, doesn't seem entirely like an extrapolation of known facts. He knows a lot of things that would be a huge stretch to assume he figured out from known facts. Mistborn spoilers:

Much like Elend with a duralumin burn of atium, it may be that Taravangian was strongly in the Spiritual during his day writing the Diagram and was capable of directly seeing the future.

 

But I don't see Taravangian's knowledge of Surges and the differences between Honorblades and Sprenblades as an example of knowledge he shouldn't have been able to know. I sincerely doubt the Heralds were particularly secretive with the Radiants about how their powers differed when they trained them. At least one order of Radiants was inclined to scholarship, and Taravangian happens to own one of the largest collection of books in the world.

[Oversleep]

Helaran wasn't bonded to a spren.
 

Question
I guess Helaran was not bonded to a spren then?
Brandon Sanderson
Why do you say that
Question
I saw that his Blade had a gemstone at the bottom, so that was a clue.
Brandon Sanderson
That is a very good clue.
source

Edited December 6, 2015 by Oversleep

[junior]

As for Helaran, I found that line really interesting. I'm assuming Taravangian meant that he was aware of Helaran being the member of a secret society, not a Surgebinder (he was, after all a Shardbearer). But did he know that back during Way of Kings, when Shallan was around? Also, do we know to which secret society Helaran belonged to? I've seen people assuming he worked with Nalan, but is that ever spelled out in the books? The Sons of Honor are out, and IDK how likely it is that he was in the same society as his father, so another possibility might be him being a (maybe renegate) member of the Diagram. Maybe that's why Mr T. knows about him.

Mraize tells Shallan that her brother sought out the Skybreakers.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

As for Helaran, I found that line really interesting. I'm assuming Taravangian meant that he was aware of Helaran being the member of a secret society, not a Surgebinder (he was, after all a Shardbearer). But did he know that back during Way of Kings, when Shallan was around?

Pretty sure Taravangian knew Heleran was seeking (not sure if he found) the Skybreakers. Also, pretty sure he knew Heleran was dead while Shallan was a guest in Kharbranth. I think she was there about 6 months(?) after that whole incident with Kal in Amarams army.

[DreamEternal]

Makes me wonder how he has spy network that is so big and competent. I think he probably was already a spymaster of sorts for a long time before the Diagram, and helped Gavilar's unification of Alethkar.

Sadeas was probably just kept around for when they needed a "visible" spymaster to cut deals and intimidate enemies, but the real work was done in Kharbrant.

Edited December 7, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Stormgate]

Having a spy network is much easier with spanreeds.

[DreamEternal]

Having a spy network is much easier with spanreeds.

But forming a world spanning conspiracy with wi-fi and air travels is much harder? Cause here in Earth rich old men don't become shadow dictators in a couple of years.

Edited December 7, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[+Authweight]

But forming a world spanning conspiracy with wi-fi and air travels is much harder? Cause here in Earth rich old men don't become shadow dictators in a couple of years.

I mean, if they did, would you necessarily know? 

 

But seriously, Big T has what amounts to a vision of the future and the resources of a prosperous city-state at his disposal. It seems reasonable he's able to run a competent spy network, particularly in the genre of epic fantasy where people are allowed to be a bit more awesome than in real life.

[DreamEternal]

I mean, if they did, would you necessarily know?

But seriously, Big T has what amounts to a vision of the future and the resources of a prosperous city-state at his disposal. It seems reasonable he's able to run a competent spy network, particularly in the genre of epic fantasy where people are allowed to be a bit more awesome than in real life.

Even then, someone so close to Gavilar he told him his visions? No, I'd rather believe his dullness was always an act.

At least before the random intelect thing.

Edited December 7, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[AerionBFII]

Even then, someone so close to Gavilar he told him his visions? No, I'd rather believe his dullness was always an act.

At least before the random intelect thing.

I agree i think he was always above average intelligence and used being an idiot to give him a bit of an edge..

Edited December 10, 2015 by WEZ313

[Rakei]

I'm sure in the past that Surgebinders fought each other, and they found out that Surgebinders could heal those wounds. Histories of that time exist in books like Words of Radiance (in-world book), even if they're inaccurate. Taravangian can read, and while brilliant may have been able to piece together the truth from the lies.

 

But his Diagram-writing moment, despite his claims, doesn't seem entirely like an extrapolation of known facts. He knows a lot of things that would be a huge stretch to assume he figured out from known facts. Mistborn spoilers:

Much like Elend with a duralumin burn of atium, it may be that Taravangian was strongly in the Spiritual during his day writing the Diagram and was capable of directly seeing the future.

 

But I don't see Taravangian's knowledge of Surges and the differences between Honorblades and Sprenblades as an example of knowledge he shouldn't have been able to know. I sincerely doubt the Heralds were particularly secretive with the Radiants about how their powers differed when they trained them. At least one order of Radiants was inclined to scholarship, and Taravangian happens to own one of the largest collection of books in the world.

On the coppermind there is a little trivia section that makes the claim that in the prime versio of tWoK Renarin wrote the Diagram, based on that kind of assumption (and his truthwatcher-ness and potential to see the future) as well as the very specific wording of his boon, he asked for Capacity, not intelligence, it's quite possible that the two look and seem correlated but aren't strictly speaking the same.

He speaks about how on his most "intelligent" days he has to be kept from making decisions because he would make decisions that seem logical to him based on his capacity, while neglecting the application of common sense and pragmatism.

 

capacity refers to mental or physical ability, but also to the ability to hold, store and accommodate. His boon might be in reference to a capacity to reach a higher consciousness, perhaps touch on the territory of Truthwatchers, predicting the future through the perception of prior information, making very elaborate probability functions and statistically predicting the future.

That seems to me the most likely answer, collecting the death utterances, and having studied extensively, while in a state of higher consciousness he made elaborate deductions based on known facts, and that's also why he keeps lamenting not having had another day like that to correct the Diagram fully, because it has started to deviate.