Copper compounding

[Copperkeep]

.You don't get more health than you put in, you get more of the health that you did put in, the health that you did put in filters Preservations power so that it creates more of the same. If it were possible that more power= new information then Archivists could just tap their metalminds at a stronger rate to get new information. Compounding doesn't do anything that normal feruchemy couldn't do it just makes it easier. If Miles spent 20 years in a bed storing as much health as he could he could still survive gunshots explosions and a firing squad. The compounding just allowed him to do it faster.

Well it'd be incredibly flimsy so either or both of those swords would probably cut it apart on the first hit still

I suppose that interpretation does make sense, though I'm not entirely convinced. With most other stores attributes, there's not so much of a meaningful distinction between "more of the same" and "more of what this metal stores," because what they store isn't variable, so I guess we'll have to see. We do have vague confirmation that Twinborn of all kinds, not just compounders, have strange additional effects with their powers, though there's been no elaboration on the point- mixing the powers does things to them, and compounding even moreso.

What are the chances of us getting to see a fullborn in action from their perspective any time soon, do you think? And I really want something from Marsh's perspective, both to see how his character and identity has come along and just to get a better idea of his powers.

It drove me crazy for a long time trying to figure out why either The Lord Ruler or Ruin would give an inquisitor a spike that held the power of Feruchemical Atium, before I realized I was being an idiot and that Harmony probably gave him additional powers, just like he did for The Lord Mistborn.

Hm... so is Ironeyes a fullborn now? He's a natural Seeker, and I'm assuming based on what we know that the Preservation can't make someone a natural double-Misting, for example, because that's just not how the power works.

If he *is* a full twinborn now, with the additional power from his spikes...

Of course, I'm not sure what additional feruchemical spikes offer for a hemalurgist in the source material. In the MAG, your Feruchemy rating limits the maximum you can store or tap all at once, but I'm pretty sure that in the novel's themselves, Feruchemy is "you have it or you don't" in terms of power level, since it operates on a form of equivalent exchange anyway. Is that interpretation wrong? If not, what is it that gets lost or reduced in that power when a hemalurgically spike carrying a feruchemical power suffers decay?

--

Wait, I thought the shard blade covers were conjured the same way the blades themselves were, and were just as mysterious to the people of Roshar? (It may be because I'm very close, but not quite at the end of WoR.)

[Voidus]

I suppose that interpretation does make sense, though I'm not entirely convinced. With most other stores attributes, there's not so much of a meaningful distinction between "more of the same" and "more of what this metal stores," because what they store isn't variable, so I guess we'll have to see. We do have vague confirmation that Twinborn of all kinds, not just compounders, have strange additional effects with their powers, though there's been no elaboration on the point- mixing the powers does things to them, and compounding even moreso.

What are the chances of us getting to see a fullborn in action from their perspective any time soon, do you think? And I really want something from Marsh's perspective, both to see how his character and identity has come along and just to get a better idea of his powers.

It drove me crazy for a long time trying to figure out why either The Lord Ruler or Ruin would give an inquisitor a spike that held the power of Feruchemical Atium, before I realized I was being an idiot and that Harmony probably gave him additional powers, just like he did for The Lord Mistborn.

Hm... so is Ironeyes a fullborn now? He's a natural Seeker, and I'm assuming based on what we know that the Preservation can't make someone a natural double-Misting, for example, because that's just not how the power works.

If he *is* a full twinborn now, with the additional power from his spikes...

Of course, I'm not sure what additional feruchemical spikes offer for a hemalurgist in the source material. In the MAG, your Feruchemy rating limits the maximum you can store or tap all at once, but I'm pretty sure that in the novel's themselves, Feruchemy is "you have it or you don't" in terms of power level, since it operates on a form of equivalent exchange anyway. Is that interpretation wrong? If not, what is it that gets lost or reduced in that power when a hemalurgically spike carrying a feruchemical power suffers decay?

--

Wait, I thought the shard blade covers were conjured the same way the blades themselves were, and were just as mysterious to the people of Roshar? (It may be because I'm very close, but not quite at the end of WoR.)

Almost 0 I'd say, a Fullborn is so OP that there's really just no way to kill them aside from divine intervention.

Sorry to frustrate you again but WoB is that it is from a Feruchemical atium spike

My opinion on the hemalurgic decay of feruchemical ability is that it would cause you to be less able to compound (The other type of compounding) a trait, normally a feruchemist can compress a stored trait and they use up a bit of the power in order to do so so say you stored 50% strength for an hour, you could become 150% as strong for an hour or you could become 200% as strong for 20 minutes, but a hemalurgic spike would cause you to go through that 200% in 15 minutes instead.

[Copperkeep]

Almost 0 I'd say, a Fullborn is so OP that there's really just no way to kill them aside from divine intervention.

Sorry to frustrate you again but WoB is that it is from a Feruchemical atium spike

My opinion on the hemalurgic decay of feruchemical ability is that it would cause you to be less able to compound (The other type of compounding) a trait, normally a feruchemist can compress a stored trait and they use up a bit of the power in order to do so so say you stored 50% strength for an hour, you could become 150% as strong for an hour or you could become 200% as strong for 20 minutes, but a hemalurgic spike would cause you to go through that 200% in 15 minutes instead.

Okay, that's good to know. (Can you link to the WoB?) That really begs the question of why either The Lord Ruler or Ruin (probably the latter?) would give one of their inquisitors the power of Feruchemical Atium. The only thing I can think of is that Ruin wanted his Inquisitors to be effectively immortal, in case the fight to end the world went on longer than he projected?

What am I missing?

Still, we do know that Ironeyes is an Atium Compounder and I think it's fair to assume he has the power for other metals too. Do we have a complete list of his spikes anywhere? (I'm guessing not yet.) So a description of what his use of powers is will be interesting. Or, hell, maybe we'll get flashbacks or descriptions from

The Lord Ruler's perspective in The Bands of Mourning, though it's a stretch.

[natc]

He has, I think 20 spikes? 21? 19? Something like that.

A fullborn Inquisitor (ignoring hypothetical god metal abilities that have yet to exist due to the lack of, well, gods) will require 32 spikes, ignoring the absence of cadmium/bendalloy and substituting atium/malatium.

So he definitely doesn't have everything which makes this tougher.

I do believe he has steel and pewter, but I'm not sure anymore.

Edited December 27, 2015 by natc

[Thermophile]

All Inquisitors have double copper, steel, and iron allomancy (which is why they are so powerful). From Marsh's perspective, we learn he has a lot more spikes than most Inquisitors, including duralumin. He is quite likely very close to being fullborn (excluding allomantic aluminum, and likely a couple others).

I just hope we get to see him in action.

[Stormgate]

Actually, TLR wouldn't let the Inquisitors have Feruchemical spikes. He needed some way to defeat them.

[Thermophile]

No, I'm talking about when Ruin was in control. Marsh was special for a reason we still don't know (maybe his involvement in TLR's death?). As a result, Ruin gave him a lot more spikes.

[Stormgate]

Maybe Ruin didn't trust him as much? With good reason, since Marsh started his actual demise. I know Leras orchestrated it, but if Marsh hadn't ripped off the earring...

[Thermophile]

Marsh specifically said he was 'key to [Ruin's] plans'.

[Stormgate]

Well, that explains that. Marsh is instrumental in Ruin's plans, Marsh gets many spikes.

[natc]

But why feruchemical atium?

1. Plenty of other abilities to give him or enhance.

2. How long Marsh lives wouldn't matter if the planet is destroyed, unless he was planning on making Marsh worldhop to help wreck a different planet.

3. Ruin had intended to recall all the atium once he found it all, burning it to compound would be another atium sink to keep a portion of power out of reach. Plus the spike itself is atium.

[Thermophile]

To be honest, I can't think of a good answer for that. Has anybody asked Brandon about this yet?

[Stormgate]

Maybe Ruin was just thinking "I need another Lord Ruler. The last one didn't follow my instructions very well, and anyway he's dead. So now I'd better get myself another one, and that means all the metals."

[Thermophile]

Besides, feruchemical atium does not require an atium spike. I don't remember the metal for spiritual feruchemy, but you'd use that.

[Stormgate]

Well, in order to make a Hemalurgic spike, you have to want to make it. If Ruin didn't want to make a Hemalurgic spike for F-atium, it would not have happened.

[Thermophile]

What I'm saying is that it isn't a big deal to make them. Perhaps Ruin wanted to give as many abilities as possible to Marsh, just to be safe.

[Voidus]

 

Okay, that's good to know. (Can you link to the WoB?) That really begs the question of why either The Lord Ruler or Ruin (probably the latter?) would give one of their inquisitors the power of Feruchemical Atium. The only thing I can think of is that Ruin wanted his Inquisitors to be effectively immortal, in case the fight to end the world went on longer than he projected?

What am I missing?

Still, we do know that Ironeyes is an Atium Compounder and I think it's fair to assume he has the power for other metals too. Do we have a complete list of his spikes anywhere? (I'm guessing not yet.) So a description of what his use of powers is will be interesting. Or, hell, maybe we'll get flashbacks or descriptions from
The Lord Ruler's perspective in The Bands of Mourning, though it's a stretch.

 

 

ZAS678 (REDDIT.COM)

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical Atium Spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT.COM)

Dead inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

There you are, from Theoryland.

 

 

Actually, TLR wouldn't let the Inquisitors have Feruchemical spikes. He needed some way to defeat them.

Well he could quite possibly just seize control of them with Allomancy, plus the linchpin spike. He didn't teach them how to compound for obvious reasons but plenty of them had feruchmy of some sorts, healing being most notable but also I believe speed.

 

 

But why feruchemical atium?

1. Plenty of other abilities to give him or enhance.

2. How long Marsh lives wouldn't matter if the planet is destroyed, unless he was planning on making Marsh worldhop to help wreck a different planet.

3. Ruin had intended to recall all the atium once he found it all, burning it to compound would be another atium sink to keep a portion of power out of reach. Plus the spike itself is atium.

1. Because presumably he wanted to give him Feruchemical atium in particular. He could have just given him a human attribute spike from pretty much anyone if he just wanted more control.

2. Presumably the plan was for the Inquisitors to survive that and be Ruins agents elsewhere in the cosmere. Which also explains the need for Feruchemical atium, the only use for it besides compounding which is as a disguise.

3. The amount of Atium needed to compound or in a single spike is pretty insignificant, there would have been a few stray beads around the place that weren't in the cache but as long as Ruin got the majority then he'd still be more powerful than Preservation.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Thread kind of derailed there for a bit. I'll try to get back on track.

 

You don't get more health than you put in, you get more of the health that you did put in, the health that you did put in filters Preservations power so that it creates more of the same. If it were possible that more power= new information then Archivists could just tap their metalminds at a stronger rate to get new information. Compounding doesn't do anything that normal feruchemy couldn't do it just makes it easier. If Miles spent 20 years in a bed storing as much health as he could he could still survive gunshots explosions and a firing squad. The compounding just allowed him to do it faster.

 

I don't think you get any of the health you originally put it. When burning a goldmind the feruchemical charge tells the power of Preservation "healing is what I want" and Preservation's power complies. There is, as far as I know, no mention of the originally stored health being released as well, all of the attribute comes from Preservation when compounding. If this holds true for copper compounding* the memories/knowledge gained would have no relation to the memories the feruchemist originally stored in his coppermind. Seeing that the power of Preservation is 'stored' in the Spiritual realm, that is where the received knowledge should come from IMO. (wild theory: since used investiture eventually returns to its source, maybe a copper compounder gains memories of when that particular bit of investiture was last used, getting random flashes from other allomancers using their powers)

 

*But copper feruchemy is already weird and different from other metalminds on so many levels you can't conclusively say that it will (hold true).

• There's the whole discrete/numeric thing.
• Memories seem to be stored and tapped instantaneously instead of over a period.
• Copper does not 'reset to a baseline' after storing (after you store health, you don't remain ill)
• probably more, but these are the obvious ones to me.

[Voidus]

 

Thread kind of derailed there for a bit. I'll try to get back on track.

 

 

I don't think you get any of the health you originally put it. When burning a goldmind the feruchemical charge tells the power of Preservation "healing is what I want" and Preservation's power complies. There is, as far as I know, no mention of the originally stored health being released as well, all of the attribute comes from Preservation when compounding. If this holds true for copper compounding* the memories/knowledge gained would have no relation to the memories the feruchemist originally stored in his coppermind. Seeing that the power of Preservation is 'stored' in the Spiritual realm, that is where the received knowledge should come from IMO. (wild theory: since used investiture eventually returns to its source, maybe a copper compounder gains memories of when that particular bit of investiture was last used, getting random flashes from other allomancers using their powers)

 

*But copper feruchemy is already weird and different from other metalminds on so many levels you can't conclusively say that it will (hold true).

• There's the whole discrete/numeric thing.
• Memories seem to be stored and tapped instantaneously instead of over a period.
• Copper does not 'reset to a baseline' after storing (after you store health, you don't remain ill)
• probably more, but these are the obvious ones to me.

 

A few problems then.

1. What information do you get?

2. What about tin?

 

I think that a more accurate assesment would be that the feruchemical charge specifies the type of healing as well, rather than referring to some other concept of healing that exists in the spiritual realm I'd think it is specifically filtered by what was stored in the metalmind. So if you managed to store the strength of one arm specifically it would give back arm strength rather than all strength, if you stored sight in your tinmind it would give back sight rather than something else and if you stored a particular memory you would receive that memory back simply stronger.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

A few problems then.

1. What information do you get?

2. What about tin?

 

I think that a more accurate assesment would be that the feruchemical charge specifies the type of healing as well, rather than referring to some other concept of healing that exists in the spiritual realm I'd think it is specifically filtered by what was stored in the metalmind. So if you managed to store the strength of one arm specifically it would give back arm strength rather than all strength, if you stored sight in your tinmind it would give back sight rather than something else and if you stored a particular memory you would receive that memory back simply stronger.

 

1. Could go a lot of ways, might just be random.

2. What about tin? I assume you're talking about feru-tin only storing one sense, so compounding only releases that particular sense instead of all of them? I don't see a problem.

When compounding, the feruchemical charge determines the effect. When you burn a sight tinmind, it gives the instruction "enhance sight", which Preservation already knows how to do from allo-tin. For clarification purposes, let's look at feru-gold. Burning a goldmind only releases healing ability. The only allomantic metal that naturally has that capability would be pewter. But gold compounding does not grant all of the other things pewter enhances (i.e. strength, speed, balance, endurance). So we know that allomantic powers can be divided into smaller components.

 

The difference with copper is that the filter, as you put it, would be to "release memory A", according to your theory. The power of preservation (unless it is a whole lot more omniscient than I'd always assumed) should not have any knowledge of memory A. If what I believe about the mechanics of feruchemy is correct (I'll admit I have no proof, but I'm kind of obligated to work assuming my own theories are correct, aren't I?), then the spiritual-based Preservation would not be able to easily access the cognitive-based stored memory. 

Mr. Sanderson (usually) makes his magic follow scientific rules, so the selection of the released memories probably works following the principle of least effort (or possibly least action). Instead of expending a lot of energy accessing a coppermind (it would have to break through the 'metalmind identity lock') , it would be easier to select other, more accessible memories. Which memories specifically will have to be determined by the author (as I said up top, I think there are a lot of options).

[Voidus]

1. Could go a lot of ways, might just be random.

2. What about tin? I assume you're talking about feru-tin only storing one sense, so compounding only releases that particular sense instead of all of them? I don't see a problem.

When compounding, the feruchemical charge determines the effect. When you burn a sight tinmind, it gives the instruction "enhance sight", which Preservation already knows how to do from allo-tin. For clarification purposes, let's look at feru-gold. Burning a goldmind only releases healing ability. The only allomantic metal that naturally has that capability would be pewter. But gold compounding does not grant all of the other things pewter enhances (i.e. strength, speed, balance, endurance). So we know that allomantic powers can be divided into smaller components.

 

The difference with copper is that the filter, as you put it, would be to "release memory A", according to your theory. The power of preservation (unless it is a whole lot more omniscient than I'd always assumed) should not have any knowledge of memory A. If what I believe about the mechanics of feruchemy is correct (I'll admit I have no proof, but I'm kind of obligated to work assuming my own theories are correct, aren't I?), then the spiritual-based Preservation would not be able to easily access the cognitive-based stored memory. 

Mr. Sanderson (usually) makes his magic follow scientific rules, so the selection of the released memories probably works following the principle of least effort (or possibly least action). Instead of expending a lot of energy accessing a coppermind (it would have to break through the 'metalmind identity lock') , it would be easier to select other, more accessible memories. Which memories specifically will have to be determined by the author (as I said up top, I think there are a lot of options).

1. That would be pretty completely useless then. The amount of knowledge completely dwarfs the amount of knowledge that would ever be useful. Pretty much the only information you'd ever get is 'there is a particle travelling at 30km/h 41 km north west of you. It just emitted a photon.

I think you're misinterpreting it completely there, to start with there's quite a few feruchemical powers that have absolutely no allomantic parallel like warmth, weight or age. Preservation the Shard can do far more than what the allomantic metals can do, it's not filtering the power through the use of allomancy, it's identifying the feruchemical power itself and using that. In which case if it can single out sight as opposed to hearing then there's no reason it couldn't single out one memory as opposed to another.

Well the point is that the feruchemical charge gives it that knowledge, the power is filtered through the charge which contains that memory, so the power goes 'ok well here's that memory and since there's some leftover power here it is some more'

I also seriously doubt it would take considerable effort at all for Preservations power to read a metalmind. Even when he was being opposed by Preservation Ruin could still alter the contents of a metalmind perfectly fine.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

That's very clearly explained, thank you. Also thank you for pointing out Ruin changing coppermind contents, I'd forgotten about that.

 

I do have to contradict you on some things, however.

 

I think you're misinterpreting it completely there, to start with there's quite a few feruchemical powers that have absolutely no allomantic parallel like warmth, weight or age. Preservation the Shard can do far more than what the allomantic metals can do, it's not filtering the power through the use of allomancy, it's identifying the feruchemical power itself and using that. In which case if it can single out sight as opposed to hearing then there's no reason it couldn't single out one memory as opposed to another.

 

In the case of tinminds the senses stored are sufficiently different that they cannot be stored in the same tinmind, whereas different memories can be stored in a single coppermind without any difficulty at all. This indicates IMO that senses are easier to single out than memories are.

 

I wasn't suggesting that compounding is filtered through the use of allomancy (well... per definition, compounding can't work without the use of allomancy, but you know what I mean). I was trying to illustrate that the standard allomantic powers can (in several cases) be split into multiple components.

 

(minor note: IMO it's not good practice to use god-metals in theorising about general principles, since they tend to work in different ways)

 

1. That would be pretty completely useless then. The amount of knowledge completely dwarfs the amount of knowledge that would ever be useful. Pretty much the only information you'd ever get is 'there is a particle travelling at 30km/h 41 km north west of you. It just emitted a photon.

 

I didn't say it was random, I said it might be. Also random can have multiple... gradations.

Thanks to you I remembered that the shards could in fact access copperminds, so let's say that copper compounding releases the memories contained in the coppermind to begin with. As you say, there will be power left over.

• Possibly, the extra power will go towards placing memories in your brain that are contained in copperminds other than the one you burned. (which copperminds is determined randomly in case there isn't enough power to release the info in all of them)
• Alternatively, the power might travel along the spiritual connections you have with other people and retrieve some of their memories (in which case the specific connection(s) might be determined randomly)
• Maybe it's preferential selection according to physical proximity. You get memories contained in the cognitive aspects of nearby objects. Could be used for retrieving info out of a stolen coppermind, for instance (if you haven't got a trueself available).

I can probably think of several more sources of memories for use in compounding, given some time and motivation.

 

I basically just believe that the filter that determines the effect in copper compounding doesn't say 'specific memory A', but just 'memory' (or 'knowledge').

And while I must admit that it is possible that copper compounding will release a clearer/more intent/deeply engraved/whatever other adjective people have used version of the memory, IMO that's just not interesting enough.  I choose to believe that when mr. Sanderson writes a copper compounder, he will do it in a way that wows everyone.

Edited December 27, 2015 by EagleOfTheForestPath

[Voidus]

That's very clearly explained, thank you. Also thank you for pointing out Ruin changing coppermind contents, I'd forgotten about that.

 

I do have to contradict you on some things, however.

 

 

In the case of tinminds the senses stored are sufficiently different that they cannot be stored in the same tinmind, whereas different memories can be stored in a single coppermind without any difficulty at all. This indicates IMO that senses are easier to single out than memories are.

 

I wasn't suggesting that compounding is filtered through the use of allomancy (well... per definition, compounding can't work without the use of allomancy, but you know what I mean). I was trying to illustrate that the standard allomantic powers can (in several cases) be split into multiple components.

 

(minor note: IMO it's not good practice to use god-metals in theorising about general principles, since they tend to work in different ways)

 

 

I didn't say it was random, I said it might be. Also random can have multiple... gradations.

Thanks to you I remembered that the shards could in fact access copperminds, so let's say that copper compounding releases the memories contained in the coppermind to begin with. As you say, there will be power left over.

• Possibly, the extra power will go towards placing memories in your brain that are contained in copperminds other than the one you burned. (which copperminds is determined randomly in case there isn't enough power to release the info in all of them)
• Alternatively, the power might travel along the spiritual connections you have with other people and retrieve some of their memories (in which case the specific connection(s) might be determined randomly)
• Maybe it's preferential selection according to physical proximity. You get memories contained in the cognitive aspects of nearby objects. Could be used for retrieving info out of a stolen coppermind, for instance (if you haven't got a trueself available).

I can probably think of several more sources of memories for use in compounding, given some time and motivation.

 

I basically just believe that the filter that determines the effect in copper compounding doesn't say 'specific memory A', but just 'memory' (or 'knowledge').

And while I must admit that it is possible that copper compounding will release a clearer/more intent/deeply engraved/whatever other adjective people have used version of the memory, IMO that's just not interesting enough.  I choose to believe that when mr. Sanderson writes a copper compounder, he will do it in a way that wows everyone.

I just don't see why compounding would change the nature of the attribute, you can't store knowledge or your capacity for memory, archivists don't have to train to store specific memories that's just the nature of the metal.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

I just don't see why compounding would change the nature of the attribute, you can't store knowledge or your capacity for memory, archivists don't have to train to store specific memories that's just the nature of the metal.

 

 

I'm not changing the nature of the attribute, I'm expanding upon it.

Compounding aside, the source of a feruchemical attribute is internal.

What is a memory, other than an internal bit of knowledge?

So without compounding all the knowledge a feruchemist could store is memories.

With compounding, you remove the need for the attribute to be sourced internally, opening the door for knowledge other than memories to be retrieved.

 

Again, no proof, but you can see where I based my assumptions?

[Voidus]

I'm not changing the nature of the attribute, I'm expanding upon it.

Compounding aside, the source of a feruchemical attribute is internal.

What is a memory, other than an internal bit of knowledge?

So without compounding all the knowledge a feruchemist could store is memories.

With compounding, you remove the need for the attribute to be sourced internally, opening the door for knowledge other than memories to be retrieved.

 

Again, no proof, but you can see where I based my assumptions?

I'd pretty strongly disagree, that's a really quite different attribute.

Knowledge implies that the information is objectively accurate, which memories are not. But even if I were to accept that it doesn't follow that compounding makes new information.

Not really still, it'd be like if compounding tin gave you infrared vision because the sight attribute came from a snake or compounding speed just moved your entire body really fast rather than giving you 'internal' speed.