skaa he/him Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) @Moogle, @WeiryWriter, @Blaze1616, and @ParadoxSpren have all convinced me of something: that "Trell" is of local Scadrian origin, not some alien Shard like Autonomy or Odium. Incidentally, I really like Moogle's idea that Harmony took the extra Ruin in himself and gave it to Kelsier's cognitive shadow, but my thoughts on that will come later. For now, let us start with the possibility that "trellium" (what I've been calling Paalm's mystery metal) may actually be just the god metal of a Splinter. The "local origin" theory of trellium is also supported by this WoB: The base 16 are basically it. But the interactions between them and things— and there is one more metal, there is harmonium, so you will hear about that later on. This implies that the only metals that will ever be involved in Scadrian Metallic Arts are the sixteen base metals, atium (and all its varieties), lerasium (and all its varieties), and harmonium (and all its varieties, if there are more than one). Because of this, I don't think Brandon actually plans an alien Shard to ever Invest enough in Scadrial to form its own god metal. Since trellium is the god metal of a Splinter based on Ruin, it's easy to conclude that it must be a variety of atium. This must be why trellium is Hemalurgically versatile like atium. But it's not pure atium, obviously, otherwise Harmony would know about it: “It’s not a metal we know.” “That’s what TenSoon said. But Harmony—” “It’s not a metal Harmony knows,” MeLaan said. Instead, trellium is a bit more akin to alloying atium with a specific base metal. Right now I'm thinking zinc, because I believe Paalm's ability to insert herself into the minds of those with Hemalurgy is actually the Allomantic power of trellium, a Mental External power whose effects remind me of Ruin's similar ability, and I've always thought Zinc to be the more ruinous of the Emotion metals. And there's also this: “I wish I hadn’t been forced to do this,” Les—Bleeder said. “But strong emotion frees us from him, Wax. It’s the only way.” Note that I am not claiming trellium is an atium-zinc alloy. As I said, I think it's Kelsier's god metal. It's just that this particular god metal is a weaker, modified version of Ruin's power in physical form, one with a molecular structure identical to the atium-zinc alloy. Some of you might object that if trellium is based on a weaker piece of Ruin then Harmony should still be able to recognize the metal, since he should still be able to detect Ruin's power in it. That's where the title of this post comes in. I would like to propose a modification to the Ruin Splinter theory, and it involves the concept of a Sliver. As we know, Kelsier's cognitive shadow held the power of Preservation in between Leras' death and Vin's final battle with the Inquisitors. This makes him a Sliver. I theorize that upon receiving the piece of Ruin from Harmony, his Sliver nature encountering the piece of Ruin led to a weird Realmatic reaction. We know that Ruin and Preservation normally annihilates each other, but somehow Kelsier managed to mix a small part of Preservation's Intent with the piece of Ruin and ended up holding a mixed Splinter of Preservation and Ruin. A Splinter of Harmony?! No. Yes. It's complicated. The thing about Harmony is that he is more or less equal parts Preservation and Ruin. This became even more true after he got rid of the excess Ruin inside him. What Kelsier's shadow has, on the other hand, contains significantly more Ruin than Preservation. This Splinter is neither Ruin, nor Preservation, nor Harmony. It is its own thing that is mostly Ruin but not quite. That's why Harmony couldn't detect trellium. It's because none of the three Shardic Intents he was familiar with matched the new god metal. And yet, if trellium is a (mostly-Ruin) mixture of Ruin and Preservation's powers, why would it act like atium-zinc, as I proposed above? Shouldn't it act like the atium-lerasium alloy? And isn't that what harmonium is? And shouldn't Harmony be able to recognize harmonium? When we say that harmonium is the alloy of atium-lerasium, we are making the assumption that there is only one way to mix Ruin and Preservation's powers. I don't think so. I think that there is a continuum of Ruin-Preservation mixtures, and that only the most balanced mixture (i.e. equal parts Ruin and Preservation) can be called harmonium (which I still think will end up being a real world metal). The rest are just shadows of harmonium. How do these "shadows" of harmonium behave? I think that mixtures involving more Preservation than Ruin lead to god metals equivalent in molecular structure to various lerasium alloys, while mixtures involving more Ruin than Preservation (e.g. Kelsier's Splinter) lead to god metals equivalent in molecular structure to various atium alloys. In other words, the god metals on Scadrial are in a continuum: Lerasium--------(mostly Preservation god metal with a bit of Ruin)--------Harmonium--------Trellium--------Atium (I should probably draw a better visualization later.) I'll probably heavily edit this tomorrow when my thoughts are clearer, but for now feel free to give your comments. Again I'd like to thank the wonderful people who came up with the inspirations behind this theory. You guys are awesome. Edited November 18, 2015 by skaa 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer he/him Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Paalm got her Allomancy from spikes, so she could not have used any god metal alloys without spiking an non exsistent Mistborn. Apart from that, does Kelsier really count as a Sliver? I mean he stabilized the Shard but he didn't do anything with its power, actually the only thing we notice him do is talking to Spook, which specifically is not a power of the Shard of Presevation, so I'm not sure if he actually had a hold the power itself the was a Sliver does. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted November 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Paalm got her Allomancy from spikes, so she could not have used any god metal alloys without spiking an non exsistent Mistborn. Good point! Perhaps trellium, being the god metal of something that is part Preservation, can be burned by anyone (just like lerasium). Or maybe Kelsier, who appears to be communicating directly with Paalm ("I wasn't talking to you that time, Waxillium"), turned Paalm into a trellium Misting directly. I don't know. I'll think more about it. Apart from that, does Kelsier really count as a Sliver? I mean he stabilized the Shard but he didn't do anything with its power, actually the only thing we notice him do is talking to Spook, which specifically is not a power of the Shard of Presevation, so I'm not sure if he actually had a hold the power itself the was a Sliver does. He's a Sliver. Edited November 16, 2015 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Would the mash-up Intent be anything like Disharmony or better yet, Chaos. Chaos would fit with Kelsier perfectly. Maybe Anarchy. They all are less than absolute Ruin but at the same time entail the destruction of the current system. On a side note. Harmony can see the future, or at least can conjecture with his super intelligence. How is it that he couldn't see giving Ruin juice to Kelsier wouldn't end up creating something like this. MeLaan said specifically that Harmony didn't know what the metal was. The whole 'gave the Ruin to Kelsier to hold onto' theory doesn't make much sense to me. It seems like it would be easier to simply create a stockpile of Atium in some remote location where no one will find it and/or let the Kandra guard it again. Having access to a bit of extra Ruin could come it handy if Harmony had to fight another Shard. It would help tip the balance towards destruction if he ever needed to go on the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted November 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) On a side note. Harmony can see the future, or at least can conjecture with his super intelligence. How is it that he couldn't see giving Ruin juice to Kelsier wouldn't end up creating something like this. Indeed. That's why I believe Harmony did saw this coming, and that he (reluctantly) allowed it. From Harmony's conversation with Wax, he talked of the need for "the potential of murderers". He then confessed disappointment that the small bit of paradise he gave the northern Scadrians (the Elendel Basin) has only made them too content and therefore technologically stagnant relatively speaking. The intended connection, I think, is that surviving various dangers (e.g. murderers, revolutions, threats of destruction) may help society grow more capable. I hold both Ruin and Preservation, Harmony said. The danger in carrying these opposed powers is that I can see both sides—the need for life, the need for death. I am balance. And, to an extent, I am neutrality. “But Bleeder used to be one of Your own, and now she’s acting against You.” She used to be of Preservation. She has moved to being of Ruin. Both are needed. “Murderers are needed,” Wax said flatly. Yes. No. The potential for murderers is needed. Waxillium, I—the personality you speak to—agree with your indignation. But the powers that I am, the essence of my self, cannot allow me to take sides. Already I fear that I have made things too easy for men. This city, the perfect climate, the ground that renews … You were to have had the radio a century ago, but you didn’t need it, so you didn’t strive for it. You ignore aviation, and cannot tame the wilds because you don’t care to study proper irrigation or fertilization. “The … radio? What is that?” You don’t explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax’s confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed … I made a mistake with you, I now see. I still make many. Does that ruin your faith, Waxillium? Does it worry you that your God is fallible? On the other hand, Sazed also confesses to being uncomfortable with the idea of letting people suffer, even if it will help northern Scadrians advance. But because his Intent forces him to be neutral, he can only rely on his agents to mitigate this suffering. I loathe suffering, Waxillium. I hate that people like Bleeder must be allowed to do what they do. I cannot stop them. You can. I beg you to do so. This idea that Harmony uses agents as a workaround for his Shardic limitations is interesting, but what's more interesting is that he labels each agent according to whether they are meant to preserve or to destroy: “I will need to ask Harmony,” TenSoon said, “if I have failed Him in killing this day.” His voice was the same gravelly growl as before, when he’d inhabited the wolfhound’s body. “Why would he care?” Wax said, still sick. “He uses me to kill all the time.” “You are His Ruin,” TenSoon said. “I am His Preservation.” Wax stood in silence amid the dead and dying and lowered his shotgun, trying to suppress the immediate feeling of indignation he felt. Was that all he was to Harmony? A killer? A destroyer? Harmony's perception of Ruin as a useful tool is something Wax failed to fully grasp even till the end of SoS, which led to this heartbreaking scene: “Ask Harmony,” she said, the trembling growing more violent. “Ask him, Wax! Ask why he sent a kandra to watch over you, all those years ago. Ask him if he knew I would come to love you!” “No…” “He moved us, even then!” she whispered. “I refused. I wouldn’t manipulate you into returning to Elendel! You loved it out there. I wouldn’t bring you back, to become his pawn.…” “Lessie?” Harmony, it was her. It was her. “Ask him … Wax,” she said. “Ask him … why … if he knows everything … he’d let you kill me.…” She grew still. “Lessie?” Wax said. “Lessie!” In light of all this, I don't think it's that far-fetched to speculate about Kelsier being another one of Harmony's agents of destruction, and that he gave him a mission very fitting for a Sliver of Adonalsium: to become a god of rebels, to become Trell. I think Sazed knew the risks. He knew that Kelsier's god metal will be impossible to track. He knew the suffering that Kelsier will bring about. Most importantly, he knew that some of his agents will start hating him, that he will receive the role of Nalt, the unloved god. It was probably a difficult thing for Sazed to do, but he allowed it, because he believes it is necessary to allow a certain level of anarchy to happen. It's all part of the plan. Edited November 17, 2015 by skaa 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant he/him Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I have a couple problems I have with the theory that Kelsier holds the remaining power of Ruin. First of all, if Harmony had seen what would eventually happen with Kelsier holding a part of Ruin, he would know what the metal was and it is stated that he doesn't. I also have trouble with this theory because it just doesn't make sense to me. Why not just leave the Pits of Hathsin to limit the amount of Ruin in him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 he would know what the metal was and it is stated that he doesn't This part has been bugging me for awhile. Do we have any reason to trust Harmony here? We've already seen him be intentionally deceptive, keeping Wax in the dark on exactly who Paalm was. Are we blind to Harmony's flaws because we still see him as Sazed? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 This part has been bugging me for awhile. Do we have any reason to trust Harmony here? We've already seen him be intentionally deceptive, keeping Wax in the dark on exactly who Paalm was. Are we blind to Harmony's flaws because we still see him as Sazed? Very good point Bremen. Take an upvote. I have noticed this as a flaw among us fans for a while now. Despite knowing he is deceptive as Harmony, we still have an instinct to see the best from him and assume he is being honest, likely because Sazed was painfully honest to a fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Regarding the idea of handling the extra Ruin by creating a stockpile of atium (that @TwelfthOfSnackTime and @WindrunnerRadiant proposed), that may or may not work, but since we have no evidence that there is currently any atium at all outside of Marsh's reserves, that makes the atium idea less congenial to my mind than the Splinter idea (which actually has evidence, as I pointed out above). In fact, we've got multiple WoB hinting that Sazed does not want to make more atium yet. Not that the idea is impossible (Sazed had 300+ years to change his mind about atium after all), but it doesn't have as much explanatory power as the Splinter idea. Bremen, on 18 Nov 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:This part has been bugging me for awhile. Do we have any reason to trust Harmony here? We've already seen him be intentionally deceptive, keeping Wax in the dark on exactly who Paalm was.Are we blind to Harmony's flaws because we still see him as Sazed? I have thought of the possibility of a deceptive/manipulative Harmony even before Shadows of Self (see this post), and honestly I try to read everything he says in the Mistborn Adventure books with the assumption that he's trying to manipulate everyone. After all, Ruin was a rusting liar, and his power is part of Harmony now.But that doesn't mean he's not trying to be a benevolent god, whatever his definition of benevolence is. It's like how Kelsier was a sociopath who still tried to do what he thought was right, even if it involved the crazy notion of being worshiped by the oppressed skaa.I think it's kind of poetic if Sazed made Kelsier a god like a lot of people thinks he is. It's even more poetic (and in my opinion, noble) if he's planning to actually make his favorite religion, Trelagism, as real as possible by giving the role of Trell to Kelsier and the role of Nalt to himself.Notice how Harmony insists on not being worshiped even by Pathians. That may not be just his modesty showing. I think Harmony is purposefully distancing himself from the adoration of the people. I think he would even prefer being hated, even if only for being a manipulative god. Because if they hate him enough, that will just be one more reason for them to leave the planet and reach for the stars. Spreading across different star systems will ensure the survival of the Scadrian humans. This, I believe, is Harmony's ultimate goal. Edited November 18, 2015 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmium he/him Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Why not just leave the Pits of Hathsin to limit the amount of Ruin in him? we have no evidence that there is currently any atium at all outside of Marsh's reserves, that makes the atium idea less congenial to my mind than the Splinter idea (which actually has evidence, as I pointed out above). In fact, we've got multiple WoB hinting that Sazed does not want to make more atium yet. Are we sure that Harmony isn't fueling Marsh's atium compounding with some of that Ruin in some fashion that isn't creating enough atium for spikes? I mean, my assumption has always been that Harmony doesn't want to create more atium because he knows how powerful it is in hemallurgy. Also why he's been controlling the spread of hemallurgic knowledge for 300 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Deceptive Harmony would not be all that unusual, but it bothers me that, as far as we know, he hasn't really told an outright lie yet. Maybe once or twice that slipped my mind, can't be that many. For the most part he merely dodges questions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) *sigh* I found a pretty big counter-evidence for the Splinter theory: QUESTION Are there still no Splinters on Scadrial, after the events of The Alloy of Law? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, there are no Splinters on Scadrial. Unless they've been brought. There are no Splinters of Ruin or Preservation. Yeah. Oh well. So much for that. Edited November 20, 2015 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer he/him Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 *sigh* I found a pretty big counter-evidence for the Splinter theory: Yeah. Oh well. So much for that. Is it just me or does that quote heavily imply that a Splinter from another Shard is on the planet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Is it just me or does that quote heavily imply that a Splinter from another Shard is on the planet? It makes that more likely, yes. So... I'm back in the Autonomy/Odium camp for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan he/him Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Well that is for sure pretty damaging to this theory which I actually liked a lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) Is it just me or does that quote heavily imply that a Splinter from another Shard is on the planet? Either that or he's a massive troll. Given when the signing took place it seems far more likely he's implying there is a splinter of something else on Scadrial. Odium isn't exactly the kind to make splinters unless forced to (maybe the Unmade are expelled from Roshar after book 5?), so back to Autonomy as the most likely imo. Edited November 20, 2015 by Bremen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted November 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Let's outline the possibilities for the nature of "trellium": It is the god metal of an alien ShardIt is Autonomy's god metal. This has a good chance of being true, not just because of the freedom theme of Paalm's polemic, but also because of spoilery stuff that I can't discuss here right now. Some of you already know the two things I'm thinking of. It is Odium's god metal. Because Paalm hates stuff, and because the "VISITOR from other WORLDS" looks vaguely like a Voidbringer. It is Dominion's god metal. Here's a thread showing a bunch of arguments for that. It is a god metal containing an unholy combination of Autonomy, Odium, and Dominion's powers. Nightmare fuel. Fortunately, there is no evidence of this. It is some other Shard's god metal. No evidence of this so far. It is a god metal containing Sazed's power. This appeals to me because of the Ruin-like characteristics of "trellium", as I noted in this thread's original post.It's Sazed's but he doesn't know it (as MeLaan said).Sazed produced a Splinter of Ruin that is now doing mischief without Sazed's knowledge. No longer likely because of the WoB I gave above. Some other Shard or a Splinter thereof managed to find where Sazed was hiding his extra bit of Ruin's power and used it to hack the Scadrian magic system, allowing him to create a heretofore unknown god metal without explicitly Investing in the planet. This god metal is based on Ruin's power, but modified by another Shard's power for his or his Splinter's purposes. We've might have already seen a Splinter who corrupts another Shard's power: Sja-anat, corrupter of spren, most likely Splinter of Odium. It's Sazed's and knows it. He lied to the kandra or made MeLaan lie to Marasi about not knowing the mysterious metal. This is possible because of the manipulative nature of some of Sazed's actions as Harmony.It is harmonium. This might be why Isaac created an Allomantic symbol that is apparently a mixture of atium and lerasium specifically for the Shadows of Self signing. Because harmonium was in Shadows of Self, hiding in plain sight. It is some other purely Scadrian god metal. I already proposed above that it could be an imperfectly-balanced mixture of Ruin and Preservation's power (what I call a shadow of harmonium). Or it could just be an atium alloy. So, which possibility is most likely? Currently I'm choosing between the Autonomy option, the Odium Splinter corrupted the extra Ruin option, and the Harmony is a puppetmaster option. Hopefully Bands of Mourning will resolve this issue for us. Speaking of which, where are the rusting Bands of Mourning sample chapters?! Edited November 24, 2015 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Well...he said there are no splinters of Preservation or Ruin, so it is possible it could be a mixture of the two (given that Harmony is an ambiguous Intent/concept, I find Discord suits the Ruin/Kelsier combo, as it lines up with Kelsier's personality and isn't too ruinous) and combined with the fact that Kelsier was/is a cognitive shadow, that could be working a way round the question. One thing i've just considered especially with TLR's presence felt in upcoming Bands of Mourning book, is do we know what happened to Rashek post-death? As he could have still had enough presence the same way Kelsier did to stay as a cognitive shadow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 do we know what happened to Rashek post-death? As he could have still had enough presence the same way Kelsier did to stay as a cognitive shadow? Perhaps, but would he want to? Kelsier was all about meddling with things, but Rashek just gave me the impression of someone who was storming tired of being a eternal tyrant and so bored with existence he started to get sloppy, since he was so horrible at dealing with surprises he was unable to react to Vin mist-fueled push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted December 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) Relevant WoB from the Orem Signing: little wilson: Are Ruin and Preservation separate in Sazed or are they fully combined together like can he give one of them, or does he have to give both. Brandon: They are not fully combined. I mean that’s not the way this works. He could pull off a piece of one even and make-- stuff like that. That’s totally, totally viable. I mean it’s basically what happened with the spren. The spren existed before even Honor was destroyed and things like that. What do you guys think of that? I just remembered that Leras did the same thing a number of times before. In order to imprison Ati's mind, Leras separated his own mind from that big chunk of Preservation that became the practically mindless mists. He also removed part of his and Ati's powers to create the god metals (though he took way more from Ati for that, as part of his plan to weaken his enemy further). I'm guessing the dark mists seen at the Well was also a part of Ruin that Leras separated from the whole. Now here's the thing: Leras did these things without creating a Splinter. So what if Sazed pulled of a chunk of Ruin from himself also without creating a Splinter, and gave that chunk to Kelsier? Thus, the Kelsier is Trell theory can still be viable even if there are no Splinters of Ruin and Preservation. But then, I think this other new WoB favors those who believe that Trell is non-Scadrian: little wilson: Are Trellism and Trelagism the same religion? Brandon: Uuhheha, that’s a RAFO too. little wilson: Is it the same god in both? Brandon: Let’s just say that… who Trell is and what happened is a matter of some interest in the cosmere and amusement to me. I don't think Kelsier is of much interest to non-Scadrians. Autonomy or Odium definitely would be. So... I don't know. It could still go either way, I guess. I'm starting to wonder if maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. What if Autonomy got in touch with a Ruin-infused Kelsier and was able to convince him somehow to try and destabilize Harmony? I could imagine Harmony assigning Kelsier to watch over his Worldhopping agents during missions. This would give opportunities for other Shards to detect, communicate with, and possibly corrupt our favorite rebel. Edited December 14, 2015 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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