Nohadon who is he?

[Kier]

Ok first of all I know that he is the author of The Way of Kings. Also that he lived a long time ago. However, I see alot of "theories" that he "started" or was the reason for the Knights Radiant? or some such?

 

Yet we have in the prolouge that The Knights Radiant was headed by the Harolds, and were around when they broke the oathpact and left. 

 

Also that the harolds had been kings for some time.

 

So, Is it understood that Nohadon became possible one of the Harolds before the Harolds were Harolds? and than founded the Knights Radiant? or 

 

I dunno. I'm just tyring to fit when the Harolds founded the Radiants and than Left, and when Nohadon really lived the part of his life that we see in Dalinars Vision. and when he wrote the Way of Kings and "founded the KR."

 

Anyone have some helps? I've been trying to find stuff on here and the coppermind and haven't come up with much.

 

Or are we all lost on these facts for now?

[Windrunner]

It's unclear. I'm certain Nohadon was not a Herald, personally. He seems to have offered up the ideals that orders of Knights arranged themselves around, although they served various Heralds. This is how I see the timeline.

 

Oathpact created

Many Desolations
Nohadon's Desolation

Dalinar's Vision (Immediately afterward)

Nohadon writes The Way of Kings

Radiants Founded

More Desolations

Aharietiam (Final Desolation)

Heralds Quit, Oathpact broken

Recreance

Hierocracy

Modern Day

[Vortaan]

It actually raises the question of how mankind survived Desolations prior to the Radiants. It also kind of indicates that Shards weren't really widely used or available, since there is mention of Surgebinders but no mention of Shardbearers. One would think that Shardbearers would be just as dangerous in the apparent war before Nohadon's Desolation as Surgebinders, no?

[hoser]

Ok first of all I know that he is the author of The Way of Kings. Also that he lived a long time ago. However, I see alot of "theories" that he "started" or was the reason for the Knights Radiant? or some such?

 

Yet we have in the prolouge that The Knights Radiant was headed by the Harolds, and were around when they broke the oathpact and left. 

 

Also that the harolds had been kings for some time.

 

So, Is it understood that Nohadon became possible one of the Harolds before the Harolds were Harolds? and than founded the Knights Radiant? or 

 

I dunno. I'm just tyring to fit when the Harolds founded the Radiants and than Left, and when Nohadon really lived the part of his life that we see in Dalinars Vision. and when he wrote the Way of Kings and "founded the KR."

 

Anyone have some helps? I've been trying to find stuff on here and the coppermind and haven't come up with much.

 

Or are we all lost on these facts for now?

Some of this comes from reading the Nohadon interlude.

I deduce or observe the following:

1. The desolation is barely over, the Heralds are gone, there are no Radiants and Nohadon is lamenting that the Surgebinders are too unprincipled. 
2. The life of a normal human is shorter than the interval between desolations.
3. Nohadon is wearing what became the Radiant Symbol. 
4. Urithiru and the Silver Kingdoms seem to have become established as the Radiants formed.
5. Nohadon writes about walking to Urithiru

Deduction: the Radiants were formed during Nohadon's lifetime after the desolation and the Heralds left.

So maybe the Heralds didn't form the Radiants. 

When we see both Radiants and Heralds, they seem independent (including the opening scene with Heralds and Radiants).  In modern times, people believe that the Heralds formed and led the Radiants, but beliefs may not match the historical reality.  

 

Jezrien may have been a king before he became a Herald, but I don't know about any other Herald kings.  Since the Heralds are only present during desolations or when they go AWOL, I don't see them as kings before they desert. 

 

Hoping this is helpful ...

Edited December 20, 2013 by hoser

[Truthseeker]

Is there a WOB that says the radiants were around for more than one desolation because I personally assumed that the knights radiants were only around for the desolation in the WOK prelude, my reasoning for this is that it gives the heralds a reasonable excuse to abandon the oathpact, we are told:

 

 

The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-12-30). The Way of Kings: The Stormlight Archive (p. 16). Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.

 

 

“You might call it a miracle. Only one of us died this time.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-12-30). The Way of Kings: The Stormlight Archive (p. 16). Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.

 

To me this implies something was different about this desolation and the only thing I can see is the presence of the radiants.

 

 

“They have the Radiants. That will be enough.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-12-30). The Way of Kings: The Stormlight Archive (p. 17). Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.

 

If this was true then why was it not before to me it seems like their looking for an excuse to abandon the oathpact without leaving the world helpless.

[hoser]

Is there a WOB that says the radiants were around for more than one desolation because I personally assumed that the knights radiants were only around for the desolation in the WOK prelude, my reasoning for this is that it gives the heralds a reasonable excuse to abandon the oathpact, we are told:

 

To me this implies something was different about this desolation and the only thing I can see is the presence of the radiants.

 

If this was true then why was it not before to me it seems like their looking for an excuse to abandon the oathpact without leaving the world helpless.

For your fundamental point, that the heralds wanted an excuse to justify their desertion, it doesn't really matter how many desolations the Radiants were around for. 

 

In the Starfall vision, it seems to be the runup to a desolation and the Radiants are known in rural Natanatan.  I infer that they were around for at least one desolation previous to that, making at least two desolations.  But really, I think they were around for more than two desolations, just from the description of the stable Silver Kingdoms.

[Rybal]

I think that what Nohadon did was DEFINE the Radiants. Similar to the way that that one interlude showed that spren could be defined by noting their measurements, by writing The Way of Kings, Nohadon may have defined how the spren ultimately interacted with those who would be the Knights Radiant. In a way, I think that he limited the original power that one could have without having spoken the oaths (by weakening the strength of the Nahel bond).

 

The Way of Kings, IIRC, contains 40 statements. Each of the 10 orders has 4 oaths beyond the oath common to all. I would expect that those oaths correspond with the orders of the Radiants. We've already seen that speaking the second oath strengthens the Nahel bond significantly. 

 

I probably could have worded that more effectively, but it should convey something of what I am thinking.

[Kier]

I just have a hard time excepting that the Heralds led the radiants, yet they were "created" or even "defined" by Nohadon. To me, either Nohadon was one of the Heralds, and was there from the first start of the oathpact. Or... something else. haha. I just don't see how The radiants could exist (And they clearly do, as Jez says "They have the radiants." 4,500 Years before the events of the book happen.) and not have been created by the Harolds/Honor/oathpact. 

 

I just have a hard time believing the Heralds and even more so Honor, could enter some Oathpact and not have created this order of knights to assist, if they had all the knowledge a God allegedly does... anyway, I just have a hard time buying the Heralds didn't create the orders they headed I guess. 

 

I guess we will all RAFO though right? haha

 

Edit:Spelling

Edited December 24, 2013 by Kier

[marianmi]

The Heralds did not led the Radiants.

The Radiants were an order that survived many thousands of years, keeping peace and protecting the silver kindgoms, during Desolations and peace time. The Heralds appear only when Desolation start, and probably worked together with the Radiants. But many thousands of years the Radiants were not led by Heralds because the heralds were not there. Radiants were born and died without even knowing or meeting the Heralds.

In battle, probably the Heralds had big input in creating the strategies, because they had more experience fighting and knew more of the enemy than the Radiants. So maybe they were temporary battle commanders during Desolations.

Edited December 23, 2013 by marianmi

[Rybal]

I just have a hard time excepting that the Harolds led the radiants, yet they were "created" or even "defined" by Nohadon. To me, either Nohadon was one of the Harolds, and was there from the first start of the oathpact. Or... something else. haha. I just don't see how The radiants could exist (And they clearly do, as Jez says "They have the radiants." 4,500 Years before the events of the book happen.) and not have been created by the Harolds/Honor/oathpact. 

 

I just have a hard time believing the Harolds and even more so Honor, could enter some Oathpact and not have created this order of knights to assist, if they had all the knowledge a God allegedly does... anyway, I just have a hard time buying the Harolds didn't create the orders they headed I guess. 

 

I guess we will all RAFO though right? haha

 

I wasn't saying that the Heralds were created or defined by Nohadon. I said that I thought the Radiants were. The heralds are a group of 10 specific individuals that we see in the prologue to WoK.

 

However, just as spren exist prior to having their dimensions measured and noted, the Radiants did as well. I believe that Nohadon saw a need for the power of the Radiants, and the Nahel bond in particular, to be regulated. In writing The Way of Kings, I believe that he did that - trapping a good deal of the power of the bond behind the gates of the oaths. 

[askthepaperclip]

Regarding the number of desolations the radients experienced: I think it is more than one. In the starfall vision, they talk about seeing signs that a desolation is near, which implies that they have been through enough of them to know the signs.

As far as why the radients ditched after that particular desolation, I always assumed they were jumping on the opportunity to abandon as few of their fellow heralds as possible, without them all abandoning and thus breaking the oath pact. Poor Taln just drew the short straw, so to speak.

[Truthseeker]

Regarding the number of desolations the radients experienced: I think it is more than one. In the starfall vision, they talk about seeing signs that a desolation is near, which implies that they have been through enough of them to know the signs.

As far as why the radients ditched after that particular desolation, I always assumed they were jumping on the opportunity to abandon as few of their fellow heralds as possible, without them all abandoning and thus breaking the oath pact. Poor Taln just drew the short straw, so to speak.

 

I see this a bit different they have access to written accounts of what happens when a desolation is near, not by necessity experience of past Radiants and almost certainly not personal experience.

 

Its the number of surviving heralds that makes me think the Radiants were only around for the desolation in the prelude, if the radiants were around for more than one desolation I can't help but think that the last one was an elaborate trap to get the heralds to abandon the oathpact which would most likely imply a traitor amongst them, if nothing was different to previous desolations why is Taln the only herald death Kalak considered it a real possibility that he and Jezrien were the only survivors of what he describes as a furious battle one of the worst when he saw Jezrien alone at the meeting place.

[askthepaperclip]

Considering that one of the responsibilities of the radients was to remember the desolations and to train and prepare the rest of the world when the time came, I highly doubt that written records were surviving across desolations before the radients were around. Otherwise, why would that be one of their duties?

[DocHoliday]

[quote name="Kier" post="80920" timestamp="1387758174<br />Harolds Harold HaroldsDude I'm sorry, but my grammar Nazism is twitching.<br />The correct spelling is Herald.<br />Harold is my grandfather. :-P

[Colby Jack]

I hope that Nohadon is just a normal man.

[Kier]

[quote name="Kier" post="80920" timestamp="1387758174<br />Harolds Harold HaroldsDude I'm sorry, but my grammar Nazism is twitching.<br />The correct spelling is Herald.<br />Harold is my grandfather. :-P

 

 My bad, spelling, never been very good at it haha.

[Kier]

I wasn't saying that the Heralds were created or defined by Nohadon. I said that I thought the Radiants were. The heralds are a group of 10 specific individuals that we see in the prologue to WoK.

 

However, just as spren exist prior to having their dimensions measured and noted, the Radiants did as well. I believe that Nohadon saw a need for the power of the Radiants, and the Nahel bond in particular, to be regulated. In writing The Way of Kings, I believe that he did that - trapping a good deal of the power of the bond behind the gates of the oaths. 

 

 

I wasn't saying the Heralds were created or defined by Nohadon. I can't understand the miscommunitcation from my bad use of "They" though. 

 

That "They" is in reference to the Radiants. Nohadon as everyone claims, started or at least better defined the orders of the Knights Radiants. Than we have people say Jazariens Order and Nalans Order, and so forth. 

 

So is that just a forms culture thing? Or do people Really think Jazarien Headed the Windrunners. 

 

If he did, I have a very hard time buying that Nohadon started the Radiants and isn't a Herald. Why would this man be needed to start and define the Radiant Orders if the freaking King of the Heralds is the head of one of the orders?

 

Do you get my meaning? 

[Truthseeker]

Considering that one of the responsibilities of the radients was to remember the desolations and to train and prepare the rest of the world when the time came, I highly doubt that written records were surviving across desolations before the radients were around. Otherwise, why would that be one of their duties?

 

Why are their duties and responsibilities relevant to when they were formed? As for written records surviving across desolations why not, we know works have survived desolations The way of Kings itself being a prime example I find it more remarkable that they have survived the last 4500 years than that they survived through desolations.

[Kier]

 

Why are their duties and responsibilities relevant to when they were formed? As for written records surviving across desolations why not, we know works have survived desolations The way of Kings itself being a prime example I find it more remarkable that they have survived the last 4500 years than that they survived through desolations.

 

 

It seems to me that the Starfall vision of Dalinars clearly points out that Radiants lived through muliple desolations. "{Name} thinks the desolation is close, and he is rarely wrong" -Female Radiant in Starfall Vision(Paraphrased, and I can't remember the Radiants name.)

 

The context of this states that he has probably, and in that case, accurately predicted Desolations before this one. (I'm at work and don't have my book, so if someone wants to look up the exact phrasing so we could look at it?)

[hoser]

Why are their duties and responsibilities relevant to when they were formed? As for written records surviving across desolations why not, we know works have survived desolations The way of Kings itself being a prime example I find it more remarkable that they have survived the last 4500 years than that they survived through desolations.

If they are only around for one Desolation, they have no Desolations to remember, so remembering Desolations would not be a very important duty.  If we trust the Nohadon and Starfall visions, the Radiants seem to have done a remarkable job of addressing the problems Nohadon saw. 

 

In the Nohadon vision, pre-Radiants, Desolations are surprising, sometimes preceded by civil strife and wipe out nations and historical records. The Radiants seem to have set up ten stable Silver Kingdoms (minimize pre-Desolation strife), are predicting Desolations and keeping surgebinding in the hands of the honorable.  Given the limited data we are working with, examining the duties and responsibilities of the Radiants seems like an excellent way to understand their history and seems to support the idea that they were around for multiple Desolations. 

 

The Way of Kings, along with the Dawnchant, only survived through the dedicated Vanrial community that I suspect was set up by the Radiants.  The Way of Kings was clearly a Radiant-era work, so I struggle to see how it would support the idea that documents would survive pre-Radiant-era Desolations. 

 

It seems to me that the Starfall vision of Dalinars clearly points out that Radiants lived through muliple desolations. "{Name} thinks the desolation is close, and he is rarely wrong" -Female Radiant in Starfall Vision(Paraphrased, and I can't remember the Radiants name.)

 

The context of this states that he has probably, and in that case, accurately predicted Desolations before this one. (I'm at work and don't have my book, so if someone wants to look up the exact phrasing so we could look at it?)

I agree with the conclusion, but am not entirely convinced by the argument. 

 

Impressive memory, as the exact quote is:

"Harkaylain says the desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. ..."

 

She may be talking about Harkaykain's predictions in general, rather than his Desolation predictions.  While possible, I am not aware of evidence supporting particularly long life for Radiants.  If Desolations are surprising, I think they are less frequent than human lifetimes, which would mean that any given Radiant would not be in position to predict multiple proximate Desolations unless they had much longer lifetimes. 

 

On the question of how many Desolations the Radiants survived, given the general minimal evidence we are dealing with, reaching a definitive conclusion may not be possible.  We have current-era myths that are known to be unreliable and the visions.  If we accept the visions and extrapolate from the information presented, the Radiants were around for multiple Desolations. 

 

If the Radiants were around for only one Desolation, then, at a meta-level, wouldn't this book and the series be a huge practical joke?  Wouldn't it just be describing, restoring and building upon a historical era that was actually an Odious trap?  

 

The argument for a single Desolation Radiant existence, if it has any support, seems to be based on the modern-era Rosharan beliefs, which, in turn, would seem to be tainted by the ardents motivations and the post-Recreance discrediting of the Radiants. 

 

A review of the relevant quotes in the WOT database turns up things like the description below (from here).  I don't see the Radiants as a brief historical diversion given Brandon's description of the series.

 

According to the mythology of the world, mankind used to live in The Tranquiline Halls. Heaven. Well, a group of evil spirits known as the Voidbringers assaulted and captured heaven, casting out God and men. Men took root on Roshar, the world of storms, but the Voidbringers chased them there, trying to push them off of Roshar and into Damnation.

The voidbringers came against man a hundred by a hundred times, trying to destroy them or push them away. To help them cope, the Almighty gave men powerful suits of armor and mystical weapons, known as Shardblades. Led by ten angelic Heralds and ten orders of knights known as Radiants, men resisted the Voidbringers ten thousand times, finally winning and finding peace.

Or so the legends say. Today, the only remnants of those supposed battles are the Shardblades, the possession of which makes a man nearly invincible on the battlefield. The entire world, essentially, is at war with itself—and has been for centuries since the Radiants turned against mankind. Kings strive to win more Shardblades, each secretly wishing to be the one who will finally unite all of mankind under a single throne.

That's the backstory. Probably too much of it. (Sorry.) The book follows a young spearman forced into the army of a Shardbearer, led to war against an enemy he doesn't understand and doesn't really want to fight. It will deal with the truth of what happened deep in mankind's past. Why did the Radiants turn against mankind, and what happened to the magic they used to wield?

 

Edited December 24, 2013 by hoser

[Rybal]

I wasn't saying the Heralds were created or defined by Nohadon. I can't understand the miscommunitcation from my bad use of "They" though. 

 

That "They" is in reference to the Radiants. Nohadon as everyone claims, started or at least better defined the orders of the Knights Radiants. Than we have people say Jazariens Order and Nalans Order, and so forth. 

 

So is that just a forms culture thing? Or do people Really think Jazarien Headed the Windrunners. 

 

If he did, I have a very hard time buying that Nohadon started the Radiants and isn't a Herald. Why would this man be needed to start and define the Radiant Orders if the freaking King of the Heralds is the head of one of the orders?

 

Do you get my meaning? 

 

Look at it this way. In the interlude with the couple who were studying the properties of spren, we see that merely defining and accepting the measurements of specific spren affected the spren themselves. This is the basis of my theory. By writing The Way of Kings, I believe that Nohadon modified the basic understanding of the interaction of spren and the Radiants - the Nahel bond itself. That doesn't mean that he created the Radiants, because they were already there, but that he may have provided a bit more structure to the way that a Radiant became a Radiant, i.e. gain more access to the power of the Nahel bond as they began to embody the ideals that he placed in The Way of Kings.

 

While writing down the measurements would have been sufficient to lock in the measurements of a single spren in the interlude, to do more would likely require a much wider spread of the information. Writing it down may appear to have been the act that locked the spren in place, but it is entirely possible that reading and accepting that the spren was locked was enough. Expanding from this thought, if information defining the Nahel bond was written down and accepted as true, it could have fundamentally altered the Nahel bond to where it currently is. Nohadon's statement of "Not all Spren are as discerning as Honorspren" seems to indicate that he desired to make them so, or at least to make sure that even those who were not would produce honorable individuals.

 

Remember that, during the visions that Dalinar had of Nohadon, everything was pretty much devastated. Nohadon had to rebuild - both the nation and the Radiants. I think that the Radiants had already fallen to a certain degree and that, by writing The Way of Kings, Nohadon sought to restore honor to the position and to the Radiants themselves.

 

As for the Heralds, we know that they weren't around the majority of the time, particularly between devastations. We also know that the Heralds departed/separated themselves from the Radiants and the rest of Roshar with the events of the Prologue. So Jez and his association with the Windrunners would have been more of a figurehead by the time that Nohadon was around. I think that calling them by the order could be a link to either what the individual Heralds were (i.e. Jez was a Windrunner) or to the areas that are associated with them because of the Ars Arcanum. I doubt that it necessarily means that they are the head of the order

[Kier]

@Rybal Thank you. That is a clear explination of where my confusion is coming from. 

[hoser]

Look at it this way. In the interlude with the couple who were studying the properties of spren, we see that merely defining and accepting the measurements of specific spren affected the spren themselves. This is the basis of my theory. By writing The Way of Kings, I believe that Nohadon modified the basic understanding of the interaction of spren and the Radiants - the Nahel bond itself. That doesn't mean that he created the Radiants, because they were already there, but that he may have provided a bit more structure to the way that a Radiant became a Radiant, i.e. gain more access to the power of the Nahel bond as they began to embody the ideals that he placed in The Way of Kings.

 

While writing down the measurements would have been sufficient to lock in the measurements of a single spren in the interlude, to do more would likely require a much wider spread of the information. Writing it down may appear to have been the act that locked the spren in place, but it is entirely possible that reading and accepting that the spren was locked was enough. Expanding from this thought, if information defining the Nahel bond was written down and accepted as true, it could have fundamentally altered the Nahel bond to where it currently is. Nohadon's statement of "Not all Spren are as discerning as Honorspren" seems to indicate that he desired to make them so, or at least to make sure that even those who were not would produce honorable individuals.

When I consider what is going on with the Nahel bond, I see two complementary elements:  The Nahel-bond spren, attracted by certain behaviors and the oaths that reinforce the behaviors.  The spren-controlling measurements seem like they can only go so far.  The additional power, the relationship of oaths and honor and the explosion of power Kaladin experiences when he expresses the second oath all point to an additional Shardic investment of magical power.

[Rybal]

When I consider what is going on with the Nahel bond, I see two complementary elements:  The Nahel-bond spren, attracted by certain behaviors and the oaths that reinforce the behaviors.  The spren-controlling measurements seem like they can only go so far.  The additional power, the relationship of oaths and honor and the explosion of power Kaladin experiences when he expresses the second oath all point to an additional Shardic investment of magical power.

 

What if Sanderson tied the two concepts together? Maybe the Nahel-bond is bound to the shardic investment, sort of like a spigot controls the amount of water flow from a faucet? Before The Way of Kings, it was all or none, but now, there is a more gradual investment? (theory)

[Iarvos]

Is the work that Axies is doing likely to have any impact on the spren? The work that Nohadon did is likely to be general in nature, more similar to Axies' descriptions of spren types then of the scholars' measurements of individual spren.

It's also possible that Nohadon somehow measured a large number of individual spren - or came up with a method of measuring individual spren that allowed the knights radiant to easily do so, but it seems like that would be much less effective in the long run.