Nohadon who is he?

[Rybal]

Is the work that Axies is doing likely to have any impact on the spren? The work that Nohadon did is likely to be general in nature, more similar to Axies' descriptions of spren types then of the scholars' measurements of individual spren.

It's also possible that Nohadon somehow measured a large number of individual spren - or came up with a method of measuring individual spren that allowed the knights radiant to easily do so, but it seems like that would be much less effective in the long run.

 

I'm not sure he would have had to actually measure them. Isn't it sufficient to simply record and believe the values?

[Kier]

I'm not sure he would have had to actually measure them. Isn't it sufficient to simply record and believe the values?

 

In the interlude of the two scientists, doesn't it say that if they jsut wrote down a randome number it didn't work, but when they measured them and than wrote it down they stayed at (or around) that number

[vikorr]

(1st post here)

 

Hello,

 

I think the knights radiant were around for quite some time, and many, many desolations :

 

From the Starfalls chapter :

The knights radiant fight for no king and for all of them

 

Urithiru is where our orders are centred, but we live in cities all across alethela.

 

It is our duty and our privilege to stay vigilant for the Desolation. One kingdom to study the arts of war so that the others might have peace. We die so that you might live. It has ever been our place…we maintain the terrible arts of killing, then pass them on to others when the Desolation comes’

 

The sort of setup they had takes decades....and maintaining the arts of war so the other kingdoms may have peace, then teaching those others when a desolation comes - that reeks of a multi-desolation setup.

 

They were one once – the orders. Men. Not without problems or strife, of course. But focused.

 

This again suggests a long time - enough time to form and become solidified and focused, and enough time to split into 10 orders.

 

From Chapter 45 Shadesmar :

 

Jasnah is speaking :

 

The voidbringers were an embodiment of evil. We fought them off ninety and nine times, led by the Heralds and their chosen knights, the ten orders we call the Knights Radiant. Finally, Aharietiam came, the Last Desolation. The Voidbringers were cast back into the Tranquiline Halls. The Heralds followed to force them out of heaven as well, and Roshar’s Heraldic Epochs ended.

 

 

Admittedly this is 'belief' - though with an organisation that plays such a huge role in the history of Roshar, it's hard to believe they would get this one wrong (that the 99 times fighting against the voidbringers was led by the Heralds and the Knights Radiant)

 

In the same chapter we have the quotes :

And yet we had the Silver Kingdoms...Formed and lead by the Heralds

 

and 

Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world….it was abandoned even before the Lost Radiants turned against mankind.

 

10 seats for kings, 10 kingdoms, and 10 Heralds...with the Heralds leading. It's not a long bow to draw that the Heralds were the Kings, and in between time they had stewards or such. Jezrien is also noted as the King of the Heralds - usually you are just a 'leader' of 10 men...but if those men were themselves kings...'High King' would easily fit (in Urithiru), as would 'King of the Heralds'.

 

And Urithiru is the base for the KR (as well as the Silver Kingdoms)...who were formed and led by the Heralds (I think that's stated somewhere, but in any event, I doubt anyone would argue against the Heralds/Almighty forming the KR)

 

Now we come back to the Starfalls vision  - when Dalinar asks what year it is, he get's the reply 'Eighth Epoch Three Thirty-Seven'.

 

And (somewhere I can't find), those days are referred as the 'Heraldic Epochs'. So 8th epoch, 3-37 suggests a long, long time for the Silver Kingdoms...and presumably also for the KR.

 

The Silver Kingdoms and the KR are inextricably linked...Urithiru was abandoned long before the KR abandoned humanity...abandoned probably around the time the Heralds left...and now the Silver Kingdoms are no more.

[hoser]

Welcome! Nice job with the quotes! Upvote!

I do have a concern with the following:

And Urithiru is the base for the KR (as well as the Silver Kingdoms)...who were formed and led by the Heralds (I think that's stated somewhere, but in any event, I doubt anyone would argue against the Heralds/Almighty forming the KR)

If we believe the Nohadon vision, the Radiants don't seem to exist at that point (although surgebinders do).  The Desolation is over and the Heralds presumably gone.  If Nohadon wrote tWoK and even walked to Urithiru, as he says in the recitation Dalinar did for Sadeas and Elhokar, then the Heralds were not around for the formation of the Radiants (this also assumes that the interval between desolations is longer than the rest of Nohadon's life. 

 

So, yes, someone would argue that the Heralds did not form the KR.  There is a modern belief about that, but it would fit with the general disregard for the Radiants that the blessed heralds would be given the credit, whether true or not. 

[vikorr]

The reason I doubted that anyone would argue that the Heralds/Honor formed the Knights Radiant is for no other reason than the Shardplate & blades. The ancients didn't have Fabrials that might have created them (from Dalinars visions), and even the 'halfshards' of Jah Keved are heavy and cumbersome compared to a shardblade. That pretty much left the Heralds/Honor.

 

I do agree that the Nohadon vision appears to be prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant. It may be that prior to Nohadon, Honor believed that placing around a thousand or so shardsets into the hands of humans would lead to it's own kind of desolation in between desolations (remember in Dalinars last vision, Tanavast said 'he realised that you, given time, will become your own enemies')...

 

...but with the advent of Nohadon and 'The Way of Kings', they found a culture and philosophy they could use to create an Order (the KR) that would enable people of honour to take up the shardset to become protectors.

 

If it appears in Dalinar's visions that all Knights Radiant are also Surgebinders (which it does), and it's held that Surgebinding is what the Knights Radiant did (Teft and Jasnahs beliefs), then the following quote is quite odd :

 

From the Starfalls Vision :

This level of skill comes only with years of training. I have rarely seen a man – knight or soldier – fight as well as you did…should you wish to put that mysterious training of yours to use, come to Urithiru…I cannot promise you a position in one of the orders – that decision is not mine – but…I am confident that you will find a place among us.

 

 

It raises the question : Can surgebinding be granted? (this may damage the Szeth has an honorblade theory) Or from another perspective, can certain beings communicate with Spren to request a Nahel Bond on behalf of a recruit? As far as I know, the only posibility of that appears to be, once again, the Heralds or Honor / Cultivation...but the only one a common KR would have access to is, a Herald.

---------------------------

P.S. the 1000 shardsets number, I arrived at from the vision at Feverstone Keep (Chapter 52 A Highway to the Sun), where 200 Knights Radiant left their suit & weapons with only two orders present, being the Order of the Stonewards and Windrunners.

[vikorr]

Gah, delete the (this may damage the Szeth has an honorblade theory). I saw the hole in that as soon as I posted it..but the rest of the paragraph stands. Is there an edit feature?

[hoser]

Gah, delete the (this may damage the Szeth has an honorblade theory). I saw the hole in that as soon as I posted it..but the rest of the paragraph stands. Is there an edit feature?

At the bottom of my posts, I see "Report Edit Hide Multiquote Quote" (the last two are obvious buttons).  Touching "Edit" allows editing.  Touching "Hide" makes the post invisible, which you could then do to your last.  

 

Edit: deleted irrelevent quote

Edited December 30, 2013 by hoser

[Windrunner]

P.S. the 1000 shardsets number, I arrived at from the vision at Feverstone Keep (Chapter 52 A Highway to the Sun), where 200 Knights Radiant left their suit & weapons with only two orders present, being the Order of the Stonewards and Windrunners.

If memory serves, there were actually three hundred Radiants at Feverstone Keep, one hundred Stonewards and two hundred Windrunners.

[Rybal]

vikorr, I don't think that Surgebinding necessarily needs to be granted. It could be that, by travelling to Urithuru, the person in Dalinar's vision would put himself into a place where there would be spren looking for those to bond with (i.e., they're also drawn to the city). I am certain that you would have to be a surgebinder to be a KR, and we also know that the abilities of those with the Nahel bond have greater potential than those who acquire the means to surgebind by other means.

 

He cannot promise a position, because a spren would still have to choose whether to bond with the guy. It is likely that they'd train him and his personality would dictate which order he would become and which spren might bond with him.

[Dros]

I believe the formation of the KR was actually a pleasant surprise to Honor. I'll try and find the quotes that back that up, but my understanding was the Heralds was Honor's gift to mankind to defend themselves during Desolations.

 

I honestly don't think the Heralds would have the time to set up an organization like the Radiants either. I would think they would have only served as inspirations. Even Kalak's interaction with Jezrien seemed to show a distance between the Heralds and mankind.

 

edited to hide spoiler. Thanks for heads up, hoser.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Dros

[hoser]

The reason I doubted that anyone would argue that the Heralds/Honor formed the Knights Radiant is for no other reason than the Shardplate & blades. The ancients didn't have Fabrials that might have created them (from Dalinars visions), and even the 'halfshards' of Jah Keved are heavy and cumbersome compared to a shardblade. That pretty much left the Heralds/Honor.

 

I do agree that the Nohadon vision appears to be prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant. It may be that prior to Nohadon, Honor believed that placing around a thousand or so shardsets into the hands of humans would lead to it's own kind of desolation in between desolations (remember in Dalinars last vision, Tanavast said 'he realised that you, given time, will become your own enemies')...

 

...but with the advent of Nohadon and 'The Way of Kings', they found a culture and philosophy they could use to create an Order (the KR) that would enable people of honour to take up the shardset to become protectors.

 

If it appears in Dalinar's visions that all Knights Radiant are also Surgebinders (which it does), and it's held that Surgebinding is what the Knights Radiant did (Teft and Jasnahs beliefs), then the following quote is quite odd :

 

From the Starfalls Vision :

 

It raises the question : Can surgebinding be granted? (this may damage the Szeth has an honorblade theory) Or from another perspective, can certain beings communicate with Spren to request a Nahel Bond on behalf of a recruit? As far as I know, the only posibility of that appears to be, once again, the Heralds or Honor / Cultivation...but the only one a common KR would have access to is, a Herald.

---------------------------

P.S. the 1000 shardsets number, I arrived at from the vision at Feverstone Keep (Chapter 52 A Highway to the Sun), where 200 Knights Radiant left their suit & weapons with only two orders present, being the Order of the Stonewards and Windrunners.

Without differentiating between Heralds and Honor, I am at a loss to address the theory.  The Nohadon vision and an understanding of how little time the Heralds were present clearly points to the Heralds not founding and possibly not leading the Radiants.  Clearly the Radiants had support from Honor to create the Radiantblades and Shardplate and oath-related powergains.  I would even argue that Surgebinding is an Honor or Honor/Cultivation magic system. 

 

When we look at what the Heralds could do in isolation, their ruling and forming the Silver Kingdoms becomes hard for me to imagine. 

 

The Dalinar-era beliefs attribute much to the Heralds, but given the disrepute of the Radiants, I am inclined to think that the revelations of the visions are more accurate. 

 

If memory serves, there were actually three hundred Radiants at Feverstone Keep, one hundred Stonewards and two hundred Windrunners.

My memory (supported by a review) has an initial 200 knights composing the "order of the Stonewards and a large number of Windrunners."  Then more Windrunners fly in to make 300 total.  If that makes all the Windrunners, then there are about 150 in each of those two orders, which could point to a number of approximately 1500 Radiants/Blades/Plate.  I believe that there is word of Brandon that not all Radiants were armed, but it may well be that a preponderance of each order was. 

 

I believe the formation of the KR was actually a pleasant surprise to Honor. I'll try and find the quotes that back that up, but my understanding was the Heralds was Honor's gift to mankind to defend themselves during Desolations. I honestly don't think the Heralds would have the time to set up an organization like the Radiants either. I would think they would have only served as inspirations. Even Kalak's interaction with Jezrien seemed to show a distance between the Heralds and mankind.

@Dros - I am afraid the intelligence offered by the quote you are looking for is not appropriate to this forum until 3/4. You may want to hide that part of your post.  I will edit this section out in response.  

[vikorr]

vikorr, I don't think that Surgebinding necessarily needs to be granted. It could be that, by travelling to Urithuru, the person in Dalinar's vision would put himself into a place where there would be spren looking for those to bond with (i.e., they're also drawn to the city). I am certain that you would have to be a surgebinder to be a KR, and we also know that the abilities of those with the Nahel bond have greater potential than those who acquire the means to surgebind by other means.

 

Hi Rybal, that theory would run into a different sort of problem – why were spren hanging around just Urithiru waiting to form a Nahel Bond with them? It’s not something that seems to happen in the present day world (although Shinovar may yet show otherwise)

 

Without differentiating between Heralds and Honor, I am at a loss to address the theory.  The Nohadon vision and an understanding of how little time the Heralds were present clearly points to the Heralds not founding and possibly not leading the Radiants.  Clearly the Radiants had support from Honor to create the Radiantblades and Shardplate and oath-related powergains.  I would even argue that Surgebinding is an Honor or Honor/Cultivation magic system. 

 

When we look at what the Heralds could do in isolation, their ruling and forming the Silver Kingdoms becomes hard for me to imagine. 

 

The Dalinar-era beliefs attribute much to the Heralds, but given the disrepute of the Radiants, I am inclined to think that the revelations of the visions are more accurate.

 

 

Hi Hoser 

 

You do have some valid points.

 

I would however like to point out, in relation to the KR being led by the Heralds (which of course could only happen when the Heralds were present) - phrased in the negative - do you really think that the Heralds didn't lead the KR against the desolations (when the Heralds were present)? (not doing so would prove rather problematic to Roshar I would think)

 

And would not the thrones (empty when the Heralds were not present), have a symbolic meaning that would allow the KR's to easily slip in to following the Heralds lead when they returned?

 

In relation to the greater weight we should attribute Dalinar's visions - I agree. And there is also nothing in his visions that actually goes against what I theorised.

 

In relation to the weight we should give Roshars history - I would point out that while things warp with history, Jasnah is both a cynic and a veristatilion (I hope I got that right) – a historian trained to sort myth and perspective from truth in histories, and the foremost scholar in the world. That lends some weight to her words.

 

And as I mentioned previously, some explanation is needed for why being invited by the KR to Urithiru can apparently lead to the granting of the Nahel Bond (Rybals theory may be possible, but it seems to me the less likely of the two, for in his version - there should be a correlating place in the world today)

 

And some explanation is needed for the intersecting ‘coincidences’ of 10 seats for kings, 10 heralds, and the ‘title’ of ‘King of the Heralds’…which coincidences combine with the ‘coincidental’ abandonment of Urithiru prior to the betrayal of the Knights Radiant - which looks suspiciously like it fits in with the timing of the Heralds abandoning their duty – for why else would such a central city (and a city central to the KR) be abandonded before the KR disbanded (they were still very strong right until the end).

 

The Status, and then the fate of Urithiru is very important to this theory, just as is what could apparently happen there (the granting of the Nahel Bond)

 

I think my theory can explain all of these ‘coincidences / events’…even if it still has concerns (like the ones you raised) – which aren’t insurmountable concerns.

............................

 

P.S. even if the KR were founded as an Order for surgebinders prior to the granting of the Shardsets - that's fine by me...I would only point out that in Dalinars visions, it's two things that define KR - surgebinding AND shardsets (and then from Histories, also the oaths)...so rather arguably, they didn't become KR until both Surgebinding & Shardsets existed...meaning there is a case, from Dalinars visions, for the KR to be founded by the Heralds.

[hoser]

Hi Hoser

You do have some valid points.

I would however like to point out, in relation to the KR being led by the Heralds (which of course could only happen when the Heralds were present) - phrased in the negative - do you really think that the Heralds didn't lead the KR against the desolations (when the Heralds were present)? (not doing so would prove rather problematic to Roshar I would think)

And would not the thrones (empty when the Heralds were not present), have a symbolic meaning that would allow the KR's to easily slip in to following the Heralds lead when they returned?

In relation to the greater weight we should attribute Dalinar's visions - I agree. And there is also nothing in his visions that actually goes against what I theorised.

In relation to the weight we should give Roshars history - I would point out that while things warp with history, Jasnah is both a cynic and a veristatilion (I hope I got that right) – a historian trained to sort myth and perspective from truth in histories, and the foremost scholar in the world. That lends some weight to her words.

And as I mentioned previously, some explanation is needed for why being invited by the KR to Urithiru can apparently lead to the granting of the Nahel Bond (Rybals theory may be possible, but it seems to me the less likely of the two, for in his version - there should be a correlating place in the world today)

And some explanation is needed for the intersecting ‘coincidences’ of 10 seats for kings, 10 heralds, and the ‘title’ of ‘King of the Heralds’…which coincidences combine with the ‘coincidental’ abandonment of Urithiru prior to the betrayal of the Knights Radiant - which looks suspiciously like it fits in with the timing of the Heralds abandoning their duty – for why else would such a central city (and a city central to the KR) be abandonded before the KR disbanded (they were still very strong right until the end).

The Status, and then the fate of Urithiru is very important to this theory, just as is what could apparently happen there (the granting of the Nahel Bond)

I think my theory can explain all of these ‘coincidences / events’…even if it still has concerns (like the ones you raised) – which aren’t insurmountable concerns.

............................

P.S. even if the KR were founded as an Order for surgebinders prior to the granting of the Shardsets - that's fine by me...I would only point out that in Dalinars visions, it's two things that define KR - surgebinding AND shardsets (and then from Histories, also the oaths)...so rather arguably, they didn't become KR until both Surgebinding & Shardsets existed...meaning there is a case, from Dalinars visions, for the KR to be founded by the Heralds.

In the Prelude Kalak says of Jezrien, "Though he hadn't worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner still lingered." It is the aftermath of a desolation, which is the only time the Heralds are present. He hasn't worn a crown in centuries, so it seems that he wasn't king during the desolation or before the current desolation. He is called king of the Heralds as he is their leader, but he is not a king. He was presumably a king before he became a Herald.

The Heralds are not present, so I fail to see how they could rule. It makes no sense for them to be kings and there is no evidence in the text supporting this idea that I am aware of.

The Radiants formed when the Heralds were not around and governed themselves between Desolations as we see from the Starfalls vision. They had effective leadership independent of the Heralds. Did they take orders from the Heralds, act independently, or coordinate as equals? I have no idea. But I am not going to assume one of these things just because it fits my theories. Given that we know that the Heralds (possibly excepting Taln) were some mixture of broken and insane, it might be best for Roshar if nobody relied on them too heavily.

The ten Silver Kingdoms have kings. They meet in Urithiru, where they each have a throne because they are kings.

There is an epigraph that refers to a grand temple for the Heralds, which is presumably also in Urithiru, because they are religious figures, the Heralds of the Almighty.

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature, voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

Ten is a magical number on Roshar. The surgebinding systen has ten surges, where each of ten surgebinder types shares two surges. Presumably the Heralds have the powers corresponding with the relevant surgebinding order because that is how the Shard or Shards set it up. Nohadon could establish ten kingdoms just as easily as any other number after his time of the sword. It could have been a way of Honoring the almighty.

The knights presumably teach the ideals of their orders. They also teach how to fight without being corrupted by violence (starfalls vision). Some of those they invite adopt the ideals and are adopted by spren, becoming surgebinders and hopefully Radiants. Those not adopted by spren become warriors that fight in conjunction with the Radiants (we see this in the Recreance vision when the former knights join other fighters).

Urithiru was presumably abandoned between the Desolation that broke the Heralds and the Recreance, but I am aware of no evidence supporting the notion that it was coincidental with the Heralds quitting. Assuming a connection and then believing that the assumed connection supports a theory just seems circular to me. For all I know, the Radiants abandoned Urithiru when Honor was killed/splintered, but that is just a guess.

You mention Jasnah as being more reliable than current mythology, but I am unclear about what specific words of hers you are applying credence to.

And finally, if the Heralds are needed to rule the kingdoms and the Radiants, why does the Almighty ignore them in the visions that plead for the resurrection of the Radiants?

Edited December 30, 2013 by hoser

[Kier]

And finally, if the Heralds are needed to rule the kingdoms and the Radiants, why does the Almighty ignore them in the visions that plead for the resurrection of the Radiants?

 

 

This is a good point.

 

I mean, we know that Honor craeted "Mankind", well unless he is lying in his last vision to Dalinar, when he says, "I am... I was, God, The Almighty, The Creator of Mankind."  

 

Therefore we can Assume that he set up with Odium the Oathpact to have the Heralds protect Humans. 

 

However, he seems more inclined to care about the Radiants. Which is interesting. Furthermore the Heralds themselves say they "picked up this boon willingly, So we can put it down again willingly."

 

Thats my hangup. Is I don't understand how Honor could be unable to see and set up a system like the KR when he is God, yet he needed a man (Nohadon) to do it for him. 

 

Although I do suppose Honor was also a man, with incredible knowledge and power... 

 

It also makes me think that the Oathpact was maybe origianlly more Cultivation and Honor... and Odium just... got in there somehow. 

 

Mostuly becasue the Cycical nature of the Desolations, and how they happened, it seems, at least to me more of Cultivation. Although we know the Oathpact was or had something to do with "binding the enemy" as we see in the prelude between Jazrien and Kalak.

 

It seems to be Cultivating the best of Humanity. (I know, that sounds really harsh, just what I see though.) 

 

[Sasukerinnegan]

I think that what Nohadon did was DEFINE the Radiants. Similar to the way that that one interlude showed that spren could be defined by noting their measurements, by writing The Way of Kings, Nohadon may have defined how the spren ultimately interacted with those who would be the Knights Radiant. In a way, I think that he limited the original power that one could have without having spoken the oaths (by weakening the strength of the Nahel bond).

 

The Way of Kings, IIRC, contains 40 statements. Each of the 10 orders has 4 oaths beyond the oath common to all. I would expect that those oaths correspond with the orders of the Radiants. We've already seen that speaking the second oath strengthens the Nahel bond significantly. 

 

I probably could have worded that more effectively, but it should convey something of what I am thinking.

 This is part of the reason why I argue that Nohadon was a Sliver of Honor. If you think about it, there is no way a book could have influenced so many that it altered the very nature of Surgebinding. In a prehistoric era, most people would definitely be illiterate, not to mention that books would have been so expensive that most people would not be able to afford it. In the middle ages, books used to be a status symbol, much like how owning a BMW would be now. Now some people have put forward this objection, (when I made this theory of mine earlier) that Nohadon might simply have "rediscovered" the Ideals, but then my point is why wouldn't the Heralds have simply told the radiants about the Ideals?

 

“It’s a quote,” Dalinar said. “From an ancient book called The Way of Kings. Gavilar favored readings from the volume near the end of his life—he spoke to me of it often. I didn’t realize the quote was from it until recently; Jasnah discovered it for me. I’ve now had the text of the book read to me a few times, but so far, I find nothing to explain why he wrote what he did.” He paused. “The book was used by the Radiants as a kind of guidebook, a book of counsel on how to live their lives.”

This quote suggests that the Ideals (in atleast a rough form) originated in the mind of Nohadon. It also suggests to me that Nohadon (or perhaps one of his close friends like Karm or perhaps the Almighty was so impressed by the Ideals of Nohadon.) was instrumental in altering the way Surgebinding worked. For Nohadon or one of his friends or followers to do this, they would atleast have to be a Sliver.

What do you people think???

[Beautor]

I suspect that what Nohadon did was to refine the skills and power of surgebinding, kind of like how allomancers have done with various metals and alloys.
 

Look at how Vin experimented to try and find the best Duralumin alloy.

 
 I think it's likely similar with surgebinding and what Nohadon did with the Way of Kings. An individual may be able to form a nahel bond with a Spren and be able to surgebind to a certain extent, but is limited in his/her powers without the focus of the Ideals, similar to an allomancer using impure alloys. A metal that isn't pure, but is close is still useable by an allomancer, it just doesn't work as well, and may have side effects. I believe that Nohadon (and probably his friends) worked to find the purest ideals to allow a surgebinder to gain the maximum power, and he then wrote those ideals into the Way of Kings to act as the guidebook for the Knights Radiant.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Beautor

[hoser]

 

This is a good point.

 

I mean, we know that Honor craeted "Mankind", well unless he is lying in his last vision to Dalinar, when he says, "I am... I was, God, The Almighty, The Creator of Mankind."  

 

Therefore we can Assume that he set up with Odium the Oathpact to have the Heralds protect Humans. 

 

However, he seems more inclined to care about the Radiants. Which is interesting. Furthermore the Heralds themselves say they "picked up this boon willingly, So we can put it down again willingly."

 

Thats my hangup. Is I don't understand how Honor could be unable to see and set up a system like the KR when he is God, yet he needed a man (Nohadon) to do it for him. 

 

Although I do suppose Honor was also a man, with incredible knowledge and power... 

 

It also makes me think that the Oathpact was maybe origianlly more Cultivation and Honor... and Odium just... got in there somehow. 

 

Mostuly becasue the Cycical nature of the Desolations, and how they happened, it seems, at least to me more of Cultivation. Although we know the Oathpact was or had something to do with "binding the enemy" as we see in the prelude between Jazrien and Kalak.

 

It seems to be Cultivating the best of Humanity. (I know, that sounds really harsh, just what I see though.)

As for being the Creator, it seems to me that he could have been saying that he created mankind in conjunction w/Cultivation and that people considered him the Creator.  It wouldn't have been totally a lie, although less clear than we would prefer.  

 

Nohadon's role seems too great for a mere mortal.  Without any evidence to support it, I can create theories.  Honor (or H+C) could have set up the surges, Honorblades and the Heralds on the Tranquilline Halls.  When Odium chased them to Roshar, they invested in the planet and the spren bonded to the surgebinders using the pattern for the Heralds.  Honor or Nohadon using some of Honor's power could have set up the oaths.  Honor or the spren copying the Herald pattern could have helped create the Radiantblades.  The Shardplate could have been set up by Honor, the spren or both together.

 

There are ways to make this work.  Gods are overpowered and make for boring stories.  Nohadon could have led a group of people who merely discovered the system Honor set up.  Honor might have been contrained by the Oathpact not to tell people how it worked or they might have had to discover it by right actions like Kaladin did in order for it to be effective (but why write the book?  To tell non-Radiants how to behave?). 

 

There is no evidence I can really offer in this forum to support any particular interpretation. 

 

My current working theory for the Heralds is that Honor lost the struggle for the Tranquilline Halls and, in the process, the Heralds got hosed.  They are broken and Honor thought when he made the visions that the best shot starts with the Radiants.  I still hope that at least some of the Heralds get fixed, but can't offer support for the idea. 

 This is part of the reason why I argue that Nohadon was a Sliver of Honor. Now some people have put forward this objection, (when I made this theory of mine earlier) that Nohadon might simply have "rediscovered" the Ideals, but then my point is why wouldn't the Heralds have simply told the radiants about the Ideals?

This quote suggests that the Ideals (in atleast a rough form) originated in the mind of Nohadon. It also suggests to me that Nohadon (or perhaps one of his close friends like Karm or perhaps the Almighty was so impressed by the Ideals of Nohadon.) was instrumental in altering the way Surgebinding worked. For Nohadon or one of his friends or followers to do this, they would atleast have to be a Sliver.

What do you people think???

I agree that it would have taken a significant investment of Shardic Power to create the ideals.  As I see it, this could have been done by Honor before Nohadon, Nohadon using Honor's power (the Dawnshards epigraph and as you suggest) or Honor using Nohadon's ideas. 

 

The ideals could have been part of the Herald pattern, but maybe the oaths were not.  It seems like the Heralds would have left after the desolation immediately preceding the Nohadon vision.  The next time they showed up, there were Radiants.  They might not have known about the oaths, or maybe the oaths didn't exist or there was really noone for them to tell.  Or maybe the Heralds inscribed the Oaths into gems that Nohadon found.  In any case, as we saw with Kaladin, nobody has to tell the budding Radiants the Oaths.  When they advance in their commitment and the spren bond evolves, the oaths come to them. 

 

I know nothing, but it seems to me that Brandon has set it up so he can tell the story he wants.  I'm okay with that .

[vikorr]

Hi Hoser, thanks for the wonderful arguments against.

 

And finally, if the Heralds are needed to rule the kingdoms and the Radiants, why does the Almighty ignore them in the visions that plead for the resurrection of the Radiants?

 

This is the only one I had a couple of small issues with - there was no claim that the Heralds were needed to rule the Radiants (just that they led them). And as the Heralds abandonded their duty, and Honor is Dead, I see no reason why Honor in the visions would focus on an almost impossibility - regrouping the Heralds & making them take up their duty a lot (being dead, he can't make a new lot)

Edited December 30, 2013 by vikorr

[hoser]

Hi vikorr, thank you for the gracious acceptance of my disputaciousness. Upvote!

Hi Hoser, thanks for the wonderful arguments against.

This is the only one I had a couple of small issues with - there was no claim that the Heralds were needed to rule the Radiants (just that they led them). And as the Heralds abandonded their duty, and Honor is Dead, I see no reason why Honor in the visions would focus on an almost impossibility - regrouping the Heralds & making them take up their duty a lot (being dead, he can't make a new lot)

It certainly seems that the Radiants would have consulted the Heraqlds during the initial desolations. It seems quite possible to me that the Radiants would have taken direction from the Heralds during Desolations. You made the case very well for the Radiants having been around during multiple Desolations. I still have trouble seeing the Silver Kingdoms running under stewards between desolations, but if their kings took direction from the Heralds during desolations, the difference could be largely semantic. We seem to agree that Honor was involved in forming the Heralds, while disagreeing about the role of the Heralds in that.

So, really, we seem to be agreeing on more than we disagree.

Thanks for the interesting exchange.

Edited December 31, 2013 by hoser