The Aplications of Forgery

[Divine0Flame he/him]

If I am not mistaken, a Forger, from Sel, changes somethings presence in the physical relm by altering the object in the spiritual relm. This can also be done with people. My question is this, "Can a Forger change someones spirit web to make them a Mistborn, Feruchemist, Elantrian, Returned, ect. ect?"

If it can be done, could the same method also be used to strip someone of their powers? The applications of Forgery, much like thoes of Hemalugy, are extreamly unexplored, and, unfortunately, all we can do is speculate.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[skaa he/him]

According to this WoB, Forgers typically don't have access to enough Investiture to create "I have this magic ability"-type of soulstamps. It seems to be theoretically possible, but they'll have to follow what appears to be conservation of Investiture laws.

Edited October 31, 2015 by skaa

[Ari he/him]

According to this WoB, Forgers typically don't have access to enough Investiture to create "I have this magic ability"-type of soulstamps. It seems to be theoretically possible, but they'll have to follow what appears to be conservation of Investiture laws.

 

Now, if you had a Forger who was already also a Misting, or an Elantrian, or whatever, and they survived having that investiture stolen with a spike...

 

Then that WoB would imply they could forge it back, although possibly with interesting tug-of-war consequences depending on the type of Investiture.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

What if the forger had been to Nalthis to buy a load of Breaths, do you think could it be possible to use those to forge some other abilities like allomancy? Because the WoB seems to imply that the only thing preventing this is that Forgery can't draw a lot of investiture.

 

Systems like allomancy and feruchemy use a lot of Kinetic investiture, but what makes them function in the first place: the Inert (possibly Innate, unclear source) investiture, seems like it would be about the same amount as a Breath.

 

An Elantrian Forger (incredibly unlikely, I know, but go with it for a bit) might be able to blend his AonDor with Forgery and use that to create any other abilities he fancies.

 

I overlooked something earlier, the limited amount of investiture isn't the only thing preventing a Forger from giving themselves Allomancy (or something else), the Forgery has to be believable to even work, and given the genetic prerequisites for a lot of systems, that would be really difficult to pull off. I suppose they could forge something to be a Hemalurgic spike, though, which might work even better, because unlike soulstamps, they don't need to be refreshed every day. But they do come with other drawbacks, like having Ruin or Harmony in your head (and a big spike in your body).

[Yata he/him]

Now, if you had a Forger who was already also a Misting, or an Elantrian, or whatever, and they survived having that investiture stolen with a spike...

 

Then that WoB would imply they could forge it back, although possibly with interesting tug-of-war consequences depending on the type of Investiture.

Probably if you are an Allomancer on Sel a Forgery may allow you to "change your misting power" with another metal or maybe a full Mistborn.

[Soother he/him]

Could someone who had been hit by the incomplete shaod have been given the state of a full Elantrian by forging, even before Elantris was fixed? That would have been an interesting climax to Elantris. "Apply directly to the forehead"

[Yata he/him]

Could someone who had been hit by the incomplete shaod have been given the state of a full Elantrian by forging, even before Elantris was fixed? That would have been an interesting climax to Elantris. "Apply directly to the forehead"

It a really good idea but I don't think that may works. Also a full developed Elatrian would be hit by the Reod. Also if you apply a seal with the "Full Elantrian status" the Dor isn't coming through you and the result is the Reod again. It may be worst in the end because the true Elantrian suffer much more the Reod.

[Moogle]

What if the forger had been to Nalthis to buy a load of Breaths, do you think could it be possible to use those to forge some other abilities like allomancy? Because the WoB seems to imply that the only thing preventing this is that Forgery can't draw a lot of investiture.

 

There's apparently ways to power-boost Forgery that Shai knows but doesn't know she knows, there's a WoB floating around somewhere.

 

I would expect Breaths to not work. I think you need Investiture of the Shard who's system you're trying to copy. If you had somehow taken in some of the mists, you might be able to Forge someone/yourself into an Allomancer.

 

EDIT: WoB:

 

[14:16]

Argent: Are there power modifiers for Soulstamps like there are for AonDor?

Brandon: Yes.

Argent: Yes… Does Shai know them-- Or any of them?

Brandon: Um… Hehehehehe…

Argent: Not “has she used them”, I’m not going to go there, but does she know any of them?

Brandon: She knows more than she thinks she does.

 

http://www.17thshard...02015/?p=245061

 

I was misremembering it slightly, as it is not an absolute confirmation Shai knows them.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Moogle

[Divine0Flame he/him]

I was mainly speaking as if the Forger were a world hopper, allowing their Forgery to be believable.

I can see how Forgery would be of a lesser investiture, seeing as the transformations are so fragile. I am also under the impression that you can not create a soul stamp with AonDor, as the aons drawn must precise.

Forging a hemalurgic spike would pose the same problem of making someone an alomancer, because you would need to create a portion of a spirit web... I suppose if you knew what you were doing, which would require extensive knowledge, one could create that spirit web portion on a spike, and the spirit would link itself to Harmony, or whichever shard you are aiming for, and the shard would provide the power... Hmm, more thought is required. Back to you guys.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Divine0Flame

[Ari he/him]

Probably if you are an Allomancer on Sel a Forgery may allow you to "change your misting power" with another metal or maybe a full Mistborn.

 

In principle I agree, although we should be careful to state that the WoB doesn't directly imply this.

 

I was mainly speaking as if the Forger were a world hopper, allowing their Forgery to be believable.

I can see how Forgery would be of a lesser investiture, seeing as the transformations are so fragile. I am also under the impression that you can not create a soul stamp with AonDor, as the aons drawn must precise.

Forging a hemalurgic spike would pose the same problem of making someone an alomancer, because you would need to create a portion of a spirit web... I suppose if you knew what you were doing, which would require extensive knowledge, one could create that spirit web portion on a spike, and the spirit would link itself to Harmony, or whichever shard you are aiming for, and the shard would provide the power... Hmm, more thought is required. Back to you guys.

 

Forging a spike from "whole cloth", (ie. from a generic spike) so to speak, would definitely seem to have the same issues as making someone an Allomancer with no prior spiritual alignment with that power. Now, if you were restoring decayed Hemalurgic power to an existing spike, that might be possible.

[Elbereth she/her]

This isn't directly on topic, but it is another application of Forgery, and one of the most interesting I've thought of so far:

You could Forge wills. It would be hard to hide, of course, but if you could disguise it as another seal, you could change the course of history with a single stamp.

[Shardbearer he/him]

What do you mean by Forging wills and changing history?

[Elbereth she/her]

Not the will of a person as in their strength of will.

As in, a Last Will and Testament of an emperor or something.

[DSC01 he/him]

It seems to me that Forgery is primarily Cognitive in its effects. Making changes that affect one's spiritweb would therefore be very difficult.

[Divine0Flame he/him]

Forging a spike from "whole cloth", (ie. from a generic spike) so to speak, would definitely seem to have the same issues as making someone an Allomancer with no prior spiritual alignment with that power. Now, if you were restoring decayed Hemalurgic power to an existing spike, that might be possible.

What if you found an arrow on a battle field that had killed a normal man, but then forged it to say that it had killed an allomancer? This would create a hemalurgic spike. It already killed someone, meaning it has taken a part of their soul, we know this happens, but now the arrow believes that the part of the soul it took is actually the part that makes someone an allomancer. Significantly less Investiture would be required.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Divine0Flame

[natc]

It would've had to hit the guy in the right place and been made of the right metal to do anything, AND the archer must be intentionally performing hemalurgy, for the arrow to have stolen something at all. And I'm not sure any of the attributes that can be taken from normal people share metals with spikes of allomancy, so the charge might be instantly rejected.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

It seems to me that Forgery is primarily Cognitive in its effects. Making changes that affect one's spiritweb would therefore be very difficult.

 

Actually WoB is that Forgery is the most Spiritual of the magics we've seen.

[Divine0Flame he/him]

It would've had to hit the guy in the right place and been made of the right metal to do anything, AND the archer must be intentionally performing hemalurgy, for the arrow to have stolen something at all. And I'm not sure any of the attributes that can be taken from normal people share metals with spikes of allomancy, so the charge might be instantly rejected.

Only the end placement of the spike matters, and the solder that

HoA spoiler

The solder that stabbed Spook wasn't intentionaly performing hemalurgy, yet it worked regardless.

Your point on the metal composition is a good one, even if I'm not convinced that a steel arrow head could not be Forged. It would also pose the problem of the stamp taking. You would have to restamp every time, BEFOR the stamp wore out, seeing as a hemalurgic spike will not kill you where a normal one would.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Divine0Flame

[DSC01 he/him]

Actually WoB is that Forgery is the most Spiritual of the magics we've seen.

Weird. Then I pretty much completely misunderstand how it works. I had the impression that it rewrites a person or thing's Cognitive impression of itself.

Edited November 3, 2015 by DSC01

[natc]

Only the end placement of the spike matters, and the solder that

HoA spoiler

The solder that stabbed Spook wasn't intentionaly performing hemalurgy, yet it worked regardless.

Your point on the metal composition is a good one, even if I'm not convinced that a steel arrow head could not be Forged. It would also pose the problem of the stamp taking. You would have to restamp every time, BEFOR the stamp wore out, seeing as a hemalurgic spike will not kill you where a normal one would.

Officially, Ruin was intentionally preforming the hemalurgy by manipulating the events.

The intent thing matters. There's not much in the way of arguing against it here. So does the initial placement, I'm pretty sure. It came up when someone asked if you can steal feruchemical healing from someone by shooting them. Gotta hit the right part.

There's a reason Inquisitors stab the heart so much when stealing things; a lot of the commonly needed theft points are there, and Ruin probably does the minute adjustments to hit the correct bit of the heart.

[Divine0Flame he/him]

Officially, Ruin was intentionally preforming the hemalurgy by manipulating the events.

The intent thing matters. There's not much in the way of arguing against it here. So does the initial placement, I'm pretty sure. It came up when someone asked if you can steal feruchemical healing from someone by shooting them. Gotta hit the right part.

There's a reason Inquisitors stab the heart so much when stealing things; a lot of the commonly needed theft points are there, and Ruin probably does the minute adjustments to hit the correct bit of the heart.

I did not know that intent was nessisary, nor that initial placemet was either. Thank you for your clarification.

On a side note, I find it odd that hemalurgy is so extreamly structured. With aondor and Forgery it makes sense, seeing that the Shards are "dead," but Ruin is still alive.

Back to the topic on hand, I can see your point on how it would be impossible to create a hemalurgic spike with Forgery.restoration of said spike would be significantly easier.

Another application, I wonder if you could Stamp a kandra? If you could what would happen? Could you change the First Generation back to their human state? Forgery is a really complex art that we have so little information about.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Could you forge someone with Allomantic potential who hadn't Snapped and change their history so that they had? Or do the opposite to someone who is an Allomancer?

[natc]

I did not know that intent was nessisary, nor that initial placemet was either. Thank you for your clarification.

On a side note, I find it odd that hemalurgy is so extreamly structured. With aondor and Forgery it makes sense, seeing that the Shards are "dead," but Ruin is still alive.

Back to the topic on hand, I can see your point on how it would be impossible to create a hemalurgic spike with Forgery.restoration of said spike would be significantly easier.

Another application, I wonder if you could Stamp a kandra? If you could what would happen? Could you change the First Generation back to their human state? Forgery is a really complex art that we have so little information about.

Well, initial placement determines what you steal, since there's so many things to steal and only 16 metals. The final placement is probably a fundamental limitation with the binding process rather than a functional one (putting genes into DNA randomly is probably a bad idea).

On the note of complexity, Awakening is similarly complex to the point of necessitating scientific research, but Endowment still lives as far as we know.

[Stormgate he/him]

Could you forge someone with Allomantic potential who hadn't Snapped and change their history so that they had? Or do the opposite to someone who is an Allomancer?

I would imagine that you could, but since Soulstamps are very complicated, this change would be complicated.

[Stormgate he/him]

Also, why does everybody ignore Stormlight as a source of Investiture? It's more or less renewable, doesn't involve any sort of ripping of the Spiritweb, and, as we learned from Vasher's cameo in Stormlight Archives and the resulting WoB, Stormlight can fuel other magic systems.