Thoughts on Sixth of the Dusk

[Gloom he/him]

I'll tell you what I think, but I obviously have no proof to substantiate anything outside of what I believe to be logic.

Do we think there will be different parasites explaining why some animals have some powers and some have others? Or all parasites are the same and they grant a specific power to each species they infect?

I don't think multiple types of parasites would work. The more types of parasites you have, the greater the chance for genetic diversity. The greater the chance for genetic diversity, the greater the chance that they parasites would have found a way to spread. So I think that it would be more likely to have the same parasite effect different biologicals by providing them with different powers. This would mean that even after they discover the parasites, they could still require the birds in order to survive the islands.

 

Do they infect plants? If they can infect tiny mouse-like land mammals, enormous aquatic predators and avians, can they/do they infect humans? How could they not?

I have my doubts about plants, but then again, the local plants are extremely aggressive, so they may be affected to some degree. I'm fairly sure that the mouse-like land mammals do indeed have the parasite which is what makes them somewhat intelligent. I'm inclined to think that they would indeed affect humans, but that they can be cooked off. This would make it unlikely that humans would easily make this discovery.

 

Does anyone else see them as a regionally-based bonding organism, kind of a mix between Sel and Roshar, like if Spren could only grant powers on one island chain?

Yes

 

If a mother bird is infect how come her children aren't just because they were born off-island? Perhaps the parasite is localized to non-reproductive areas of the body?

That sounds like a reasonable theory.

 

What other effects do these parasites have on their hosts?

At this point we don't even know what the primary effect these parasites would have on a human body.

 

If you fed a fully-grown, non-Invested Aviar from the Northern Lands a fish caught in these waters, would it catch the parasites and gain powers? If your Aviar got sick and you gave it some medicine, what are the odds it would kill the parasites inside and lose its powers? How would something non-sentient like an Aviar react to the loss of something like Investiture?

 

I would assume that the bird would gain powers, but I can't be certain. I think you might be able to kill the parasite, but I think they may have been doing this a while and would know which medicines would be likely to strip a bird of its powers. In this event, the bird may continue to function normally, or it may die. I don't see that the birds took any special notice of their abilities.
 

 

Do you think Sixth's bird sees her own death while he sees his?

I think you ask too many questions!

[askthepaperclip he/him]

I doubt it has a Shard, the planet is supposed to be unimportant. Maybe just a Splinter or something. This planet seems to have some sort of space travel, according to Brandon.

I thought it was the Shadows for Silence world that is going to be aware of space travel...?

[Windrunner he/him]

That was not the impression I received, although I can't remember where we found it out so I can't confirm. Brandon did discuss space travel when plotting Sixth of the Dusk and given the setting of Shadows for Silence, you'd think if people there had space travel, they would be eager to escape that world...

[Iredomi]

Yeah the space travel thing is definitely not in Shadows unless i missed something... I too was under the impression that space travel was going to be referred to in Sixth.

[Aether he/him]

Remember that this was three different authors brain-storming for a story. They all had different takes on the story; the space travel one was [the other male's] idea. Brandon kept wanting to make the setting more, um, fantasy-y.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I'm glad I don't live there. I liked the story, and look forward to the novella, but it seems like a rather hostile place.

To be fair, that's like basing the danger level of Earth on a 2 hour trek waist-deep in the Amazon. Based on the level of technology, something like a Victorian London exists somewhere.

[askthepaperclip he/him]

yeah, I went back and rechecked MY OWN POST where I had transcribed Brandon saying that Sixth is the space travel one....

 

*headdesk* Am I allowed to downvote myself? 

[Aether he/him]

Well, I can do it for you if you'd like, but is it really necessary?

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Lol, no that's ok...thanks though ;-)

[Trevalion]

  I put this same post in the the Shadows for Silence thread, but it fits in both spots and I wanted to post it here too as I think Shadows and Sixth are on the same world and I've got a combined theory for both of them.  Stop reading if you want to read Shadows first, as major spoilers ahead:

 

  This is my first real post on this site, after joining to complete the Shardhunt and posting to say I did so, which brought me out from just reading and theorizing on the sidelines, and I'm going to lay down a theory that places Shadows of Silence in the Forests of Hell (SSFH has been recommended) and Sixth of the Dusk in the cosmere and starts to explain their magic systems.  Ready?

  In SSFH, Silence says "Justice died in homeland."  I think this means quite literally, Justice died in homeland, the home island/continent.  He was shattered by Odium.  From here, I’ve considered two options.  The one I'm less in favor of is that he was first split into two parts, as there is a relatively clean break between the punishment of the guilt and the protection of the innocent, and the punishment of guilty half shard landed in Hell Island.  The one I think more likely is that Justice is so degraded, or gave so much of his mind to the creation of humans on this planet, just as Preservation did, that he now works now on a very basic level of justice, attempting only to punish the guilty.  When the piece of himself that is drawn to the spirits that he gave himself to create see bloodshed, they go insane to punish it.  When they see someone run, they think they must be guilty and pursue.  When they see fire, they are blinded, as a purifying righteous fire/oxidation was the body of Justice and it blinds his splinters like metal (non-silver metal) blinded Preservation and Ruin.  These splinters believe that those who hide must be guilty, and they pursue.  One of the reasons I think fire/oxidation is the body of Justice is that I think silver is the body of Mercy (more later).

Honor and Cultivation started a civilization because they were in love, but Ruin and Preservation started a world because they needed the others balance to to create.  It makes since that if Justice were to start a world, it would need to be in partnership with Mercy.  I think Mercy was ruthlessly splintered by Odium as well, as his hate for her, a shard so counter to his own nature, would be great and I don’t see Mercy being able to fight back, as she would be bound to show mercy, even to Odium.  I think she was so splintered that she now has to function at a very basic level, the level of microbes, which when infecting an animal such as the birds in Sixth, they protect those who are with them in the shelter and the nature of her Mercy, in the way that works best on this world which is shielding the mind, regardless of who they are helping or what that person has done.  In Islands where she reigned, the shades do not appear.  I like this theory better than the other half of Justice being at work on the Sixth islands.  (see podcast from Writing Excuses http://www.writingexcuses.com/2013/04/21/writing-excuses-8-16-brainstorming-with-brandon-again/ if you haven’t done the Shardhunt for more about Sixth of the Dusk.  One word from the Sixth story though.   Where does Sixth say the other traders come from, his [homeland].  Silence’s ancestors were sailor/explorers who ventured from the “homeland” to a dangerous unpopulated island and settled there.  Sound familiar?  Conservation of worlds and Occam’s razor says were on the same planet.

I bet silver is key to the function of these microbes.  I think silver, a malleable precious metal that can be tarnished (oxidation/fire) but is of great value, is the body of Mercy and when Justice and Mercy collide, it’s like the oxidation of silver, you get a black compound, silver nitrite, such as we saw in SSFH.

Last theory.  In the forums someone reported that Brandon has said that Sixth is going to be part of a space travel story at some point.  What world has been brought up where going there and taking the shards would have a largely positive impact on the people (save for making trouble for the traders whose birds may stop protecting them), where there are two shards so perfectly balanced, that when Harmony takes them up to prepare himself for his upcoming duel with Odium, he can stay himself, he can stay Harmony?  This one.  I think Harmony will be taking a working vacation with some trusted friends on a trip sometime soon (space trilogy time in Scadrial).  As Hoid mused to Dalinar in WOK, can you pull a being apart, bloody chunk by bloody chunk and then put him back together again.  He’s surely working towards it and Harmony is his best bet to see it happen.  Likely the splintering of Justice and Mercy came after the first letter and I bet in the next one we see in the epigrams will speak of Odium’s further deeds of destruction against Justice and Mercy and their world.

So, to recap, SSFH and Sixth are on the same world, where Justice and Mercy reigned and have been splintered thoroughly.  Fire is the body of Justice and silver the body of Mercy.  Harmony will come here and take up their Shards in the time of the Scadrial space triology, perhaps then being identified as the God Beyond, whom Silence refers to, coming to rescue them in the end.

So, what do you all think?

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Didn't Brandon say these stories were on insignificant Cosmere worlds? I don't think it could be insignificant if it had two shards.

Also,I get the justice thing, but where did you get mercy as a shard? Just as a counter to justice?

Edited December 9, 2013 by Ookla the Nerdspren

[Oudeis he/him]

Didn't Brandon say these stories were on insignificant Cosmere worlds? I don't think it could be insignificant if it had two shards.

Also,I get the justice thing, but where did you get mercy as a shard? Just as a counter to justice?

 

I think he's saying that there was one Shard, named Justice, but that it somehow Splintered into just two big pieces, rather than many, many tiny Splinters, like what's happened on Roshar and Sel. In this case he thinks it split the Intent of Justice into two sub-intents, Punishment and Mercy.

 

Personally, I disagree with his assessment. These are clearly two different worlds, and we have WoB that they are insignificant, and that insignificant worlds don't have full Shards. They both clearly have some Investiture; maybe scraps of Adonalsium? He's also said that a Splinter of a Shard might be on one of the insignificant worlds. Which admittedly, I'm not sure of since all those Shades look like a big enough deal that I don't really understand how something roughly analogous to a Seon or one Divine Breath could do all that. Even the Innate Investiture of humans that the Shades shy away from/feed on has to come from somewhere. If we can posit that the humans here are getting their Innate Investiture in a manner that we just haven't figured out yet, I propose it's possible that one dark Splinter floats through the Forest as sort-of a super-shade, that he uses the power inside of people to make new shades, which themselves can repeat the process. This only works if really more people die via shade than get killed. Presumably in the early days, it wouldn't have taken very many shades very long to build up a lot of shades before people figured out the Simple Rules and the thing with silver.

[cris34b he/him]

Unimportant, sure, but they still exist. Do we know that there are 10 worlds, period, or do we know that there are 10 worlds that matter? If it's just ten shardworlds, then Dusk and Forests of Hell are worlds, and unless they are Yolen, Braize, Ashyn, or Taldain, this means we now have some information on literally every shardworld.

 

 

I'm with Ookla on this.

 

 

Interesting; are the parasites the only form of Investiture? Presumably the water-shadows then also have parasites, as do the tiny mouse-things from the island. I'd be amused that the shadows are what happens when a single parasite manages to grow to gargantuan size.

 

Hee, for your second line. Incredibly off topic, I don't know if anyone here has read the Sword of Truth series. The wikipedia article for the main female protagonist states, "She has an irrational fear of snakes. By contrast, her fear of Shota the Witch-Woman is entirely rational and quite well-founded."

That blind witch lady can do some serious damage.

[Turos]

Why do people magically turn into Ookla when quoted here? So confusing.

 

Are you all really Peter having a conversation with himself?!

 

So, his secret in managing the cosmere consistency has been revealed at last...

[AndrewStirlingMacDonald he/him]

I asked Brandon whether First of the Sun has a shard or splinter (figment chat, 1/19/XV), and he said "First of the Sun is not under the direct influence of any Shard."

[Kurkistan he/him]

I asked Brandon whether First of the Sun has a shard or splinter (figment chat, 1/19/XV), and he said "First of the Sun is not under the direct influence of any Shard."

 

Well that's interesting. Assuming that the obviously-magical pool is still obviously-magical, are we then to assume it was sourced at Adonalsium, or that Brandon's answer doesn't preclude "indirect influence" in the form of just leaving some power behind, ala the Well of Ascension?

Edited January 20, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Blaze1616 he/him]

 

Well that's interesting. Assuming that the obviously-magical pool is still obviously-magical, are we then to assume it was sourced at Adonalsium, or that Brandon's answer doesn't preclude "indirect influence" in the form of just leaving some power behind, ala the Well of Ascension?

 

Perhaps it is the planet that the other Shard Odium has killed resided.

[Kurkistan he/him]

The question is whether that would count as "direct influence", I suppose.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

The question is whether that would count as "direct influence", I suppose.

 

I guess that's true. I understood his answer as being at the time of Sixth of the Dusk. Regardless, it is clear a Shard invested in the planet at some point, so it is either gone now due to some unknown motive, or the obviously magical pool isn't so magical...

[Titan Arum]

I asked Brandon whether First of the Sun has a shard or splinter (figment chat, 1/19/XV), and he said "First of the Sun is not under the direct influence of any Shard."

Thanks for the insight Andrew! This is similar to one of the questions that I had planned to ask Brandon at the Philly signing. Now I will ask him if First of the Sun is accessible via Shadesmar. If yes, then I will ask if someone can Worldhop via Patji's Eye. I also have a ton of questions I want to ask about the Aviar and their powers on other planets. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Thanks for the insight Andrew! This is similar to one of the questions that I had planned to ask Brandon at the Philly signing. Now I will ask him if First of the Sun is accessible via Shadesmar. If yes, then I will ask if someone can Worldhop via Patji's Eye. I also have a ton of questions I want to ask about the Aviar and their powers on other planets. 

 

It's going to be accessible through the Cognitive Realm, because that's the nature of the Cognitive Realm.  There's really no reason to think it wouldn't. (And technically Shadesmar is only a /region/ of the Cognitive Realm fyi)

 

I guess that's true. I understood his answer as being at the time of Sixth of the Dusk. Regardless, it is clear a Shard invested in the planet at some point, so it is either gone now due to some unknown motive, or the obviously magical pool isn't so magical...

 

Actually it is decidedly /not/ clear. Brandon has talked about the differences between major and minor shardworlds and minor ones are defined by lower levels of Investiture (because they don't have a Shard) as a result they don't have a formal magic system (which First of the Sun doesn't have) but rather the magic affects nature (resulting in things like Aviar or Shades).

[Turos]

All I know is when a guy with a parrot on his shoulder shows up in SA3, I am going to jump to world-hopper accusations.

[Iredomi]

Hmm that is unlikely unless you can travel backwards in time. I was under the impression that sixth of the dusk is the furthest in the future out of anything we've read in the Cosmere.

[Turos]

Ancient aliens

[Titan Arum]

Hmm that is unlikely unless you can travel backwards in time. I was under the impression that sixth of the dusk is the furthest in the future out of anything we've read in the Cosmere.

That doesn't mean that characters from First of the Sun haven't Worldhopped previous to Sixth of the Dusk. If Patji's Eye is indeed a splinter pool then it is probably pretty easy to travel to other worlds via the Cognitive Realm (Oh, and Wiery, thanks for the heads-up on the nomenclature. You're right, Shadesmar is the region of the realm for SA). 

 

Warbreaker spoiler (and obviously insane speculation just to make a point):

 

Tonk Fah has a parrot for a short while in Warbreaker. If we didn't know that he actually killed the bird, then we could have speculated that he is a Worldhopper from First of the Sun. If not that, then the bird could be an Aviar that he purchased on some black market, which would imply someone else Worldhopped to/from First to bring the parrot to Nalthis. If this were the case, maybe Tonk Fah doesn't even realize how special his parrot actually was? However, if I had to guess his parrot in Warbreaker is just coincidence.