Elkokhar is Surgebinding

[The Count he/him]

I disagree.  Plate doesn't automatically have to block stormlight drainage.  In fact, would that even be necessary if none of the Radiants' opponents used stormlight? 

 

How can you be so sure that the Radiants' opponents did not use stromlight?

 

We have seen no other type of power source for 'magic' on Roshar. The existence of 'voidlight' is speculation based only on the black gem.

 

Voidbinding could well require stormlight as a power source and some types of voidbringer may well be able to infuse from gems, we just do not know.

 

Not to mention there could be darkside surgebinders.

 

Major Spoiler below!

And of course there are the Larkin, who can clearly drain stormlight from a surgebinder

 

I think there are many reasons for plate to have the ability to block the draining of stormlight from the gems inside. It is even concievable (although I admit it is a stretch) that this is the primary function of the plate.

 

We have seen how deadliy Szeth can be all by himself even against full shardbearers. I do not think a set of plate would make him any more dangurous even if he could lash while wearing it.

Edited November 19, 2013 by MadRand

[Gloom he/him]

If the gems were badly flawed, they could have been fully charged with Stormlight, and still cracked under strain. It still could have been an attempt on his life. The Chasm Fiend was the second time he exerted himself in his armor that day. So to say that it would have been noticeable isn't necessarily true. Then again, we have no proof either way. This is a mystery that we lack sufficient evidence to solve at this time.

[name_here]

I wonder if the stress from draining gems is cumulative. I assume that there's some randomness in when they shatter, since otherwise people would uniformly rotate older ones in Plate to Soulcasting or fabrials, but ones that have been used more might be more likely to fail under stress. It might be that a given gem will shatter if drained above a certain rate, and if you draw at, say, 90% of maximum, the stress lowers the maximum. It would be pretty hard to project exactly when one would blow out, but older ones would be more likely to fail.

 

If that's the case, someone could have pre-stressed gems and then swapped them out without anyone noticing. Heck, someone really patient could have set it up months in advance, slipping old gems into the armorer's supply so Elhokar's armor would fail catastrophically when stressed. Since the gems would work fine under light load, it would escape notice until the worst possible moment.

 

If it were more-or-less random, then there would be a huge varience in how many blew out in a fight, and that apparently does not happen. I guess maybe the Plate could be pretty good at automatically balancing the load and rarely draws enough from a single gem to blow it out, though.

Edited November 19, 2013 by name_here

[Glaring at the Survivor he/him]

Um... Guys that are saying that Shardplate interferes with Szeth's Lashings, and then assuming that such is (a) true for all Surgebinders and/or ( true for Dalinar and Elhokar, have you heard that Szeth doesnt have a spren that goves him his powers?

Does SzethsonsonVallano's Surgebinding require HonorSpren like Kaladin's?

No, it does not. (Hm....) Gold star to you.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-6

So perhaps it is because of his specific non-spren-powered Surgebinding that Plate interferes. Just a possibility.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Stroniax

[Arook he/him]

 

 

I disagree.  Plate doesn't automatically have to block stormlight drainage.  In fact, would that even be necessary if none of the Radiants' opponents used stormlight?  Voidbinding could very well rely on a different fuel source for investiture (e.g., the black light in gem Gavilar gives Szeth).  If none of their enemies can use it, how would they have a mechanism to steal it?

 

 

 

 

there is evidence that Stormlight can even be absorbed from an individual that is holding it. So having that be a build in feature is good for Radiants to have. A good thing to note is odium's and honor's power both comes from the same place and is the same, it is only the intent of that power that is different. So it is possible that the only difference between void-binding and surge-binding is the intent of the user.

 

Actually, Szeth says his Lashing interfere with the gemstones in the plate (not the other way around).  That's a good point about Szeth not stealing the stormlight from Gavilar's Plate.  However, Szeth does not derive his surgebinding from a Nahel bond, and perhaps that affects his ability to retrieve stormlight from certain sources (just like he cannot hold stormlight as efficiently as Kaladin).

 

 

 

 

He says both that he can't use his lashings against a man in shard plate and that his lashings interfere with with the gems if he was in it(Side note this means he has most likely had the opportunity to try). This is most likely because shard plate is made of storm light and we know things that are already invested don't like to have other investiture in them.

[11thorderknight]

Yeah, but Jasnah had to soulcast a great big boulder to crack one gem.  What you're suggesting is a massive expenditure of stormlight far beyond infusing.  If Kaladin were to suck in all the stormlight from those gems they would just go dark, not crack.  Then, for several of Elhokar's gems to crack, someone would have had to make an extreme usage of stormlight in a shorter period of time than normal infusing.  I just don't see anything happening other than Dalinar holding up the claw.  And we don't know of a surge (yet) which would really cause that kind of effect.

 

I agree, I don't think that Elhokar did anything with all that Stormlight. But my point is that he didn't have to in order to drain the gems, even ten large sapphires. If you read the Szeth scenes, it's pretty clear that he can only hold Stormlight for a very short time. But he's aware of this, and uses it sparingly and to maximum effect. If Elhokar is unconsciously infusing himself, then having it dissipate, then over the course of a couple hours he could easily drain a bunch of large gems while not accomplishing anything. It would be like the gems had a "leak" in them. Then, when the chamsfiend attacked and his armor was stressed, the gems cracked because all of a sudden they took a large hit.

[hoser he/him]

I agree, I don't think that Elhokar did anything with all that Stormlight. But my point is that he didn't have to in order to drain the gems, even ten large sapphires. If you read the Szeth scenes, it's pretty clear that he can only hold Stormlight for a very short time. But he's aware of this, and uses it sparingly and to maximum effect. If Elhokar is unconsciously infusing himself, then having it dissipate, then over the course of a couple hours he could easily drain a bunch of large gems while not accomplishing anything. It would be like the gems had a "leak" in them. Then, when the chamsfiend attacked and his armor was stressed, the gems cracked because all of a sudden they took a large hit.

Please forgive me, but I have difficulties with the scenario.

1. If he was continuously infusing, why didn't he glow?
2. Why would he drain just the gems in a certain place?
3. Wouldn't he have beaten Dalinar in their race by a lot?
4. Why didn't the glyphs on his armor or the armor itself glow?
5. Why haven't the drained gems been noted before or since?  With an investigation that would be relevant?  If he just started infusing that day, that seems like an unlikely coincidence.
6. When Kaladin infused unconsciously, it was only when needed, why would Elhokar unconsciously do it only when not needed?

[name_here]

I agree, I don't think that Elhokar did anything with all that Stormlight. But my point is that he didn't have to in order to drain the gems, even ten large sapphires. If you read the Szeth scenes, it's pretty clear that he can only hold Stormlight for a very short time. But he's aware of this, and uses it sparingly and to maximum effect. If Elhokar is unconsciously infusing himself, then having it dissipate, then over the course of a couple hours he could easily drain a bunch of large gems while not accomplishing anything. It would be like the gems had a "leak" in them. Then, when the chamsfiend attacked and his armor was stressed, the gems cracked because all of a sudden they took a large hit.

 

Szeth is pretty bad at holding Stormlight compared to Kaladin, though. Of course, by the time Kaladin starts actually holding it for a long period of time, he's already bonded with Syl, so he's probably better at it than Elhokar. But more importantly, it appears that gems crack when you drain them too rapidly. If they'd been mostly drained already by the time they fought the Chasmfiend, they wouldn't shatter; the Plate would just lock up.

[Shardlet he/him]

Also, if Elhokar had drained that much stormlight, he'd have been glowing like spotlight and felt like he was going to explode.  Not something easily chocked up to an adrenaline rush or even the Thrill.

[junior]

But the key aspect there is that he noticed the surge of power.  Whereas, there doesn't appear to be any cognizence of any sort of power surge from any of Dalinar, Elhokar, or Adolin.  This is especially poignant when you consider the quantity of stormlight held in Elhokar's plate gems as compared to the palty amount that Kaladin carried at any given time.

 

There are a instances when Kaladin draws in power without realizing that he's doing it.  Teft is responsible for at least one.  iirc, he accidentally performs a surgebinding at one point.  And while I can't remember the details off the top of my head, there's another incident where he starts to become angry and unthinkingly draws in enough power to start noticeably glowing before someone else points it out.

 

The real problem with the "Elohkar drained them himself" theory is that we never have any indication of Elohkar glowing.  Dalinar does.  But Elohkar never appears to.  And given the amount of power drawing that would presumably be required to crack a gem, he should have been at some point.

 

Unless he somehow gifted the power to Dalinar when the latter started glowing.

[Aether he/him]

I think it's high time for me to poke a few holes in my own theory:

 

First of all, it is based on a partially wrong premise. Whereas I described Dalinar's armour glowing in "a burst of brilliant white light", turns out the actual quote is much more subtle:

 

Dalinar held back the claw and matched it's strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow.

 - The way of Kings, p. 209 (my bold lettering).

It is, in other words, a lot less dramatic then I previously indicated.

 

Secondly, this is not the only time a similar thing happens to Dalinar later in the book, when he rescues Kaladin's squad right after the latter used his Parshendi-amour dance-diversion. This time he is far away from any other potential surgebinder:

 

       Parshendi fell before the sweeping Blade of the Shardbearer, some topling into the chasm, others scrambling back. The rest died with burned out eyes. In seconds, the squad of fifty archers had been reduced to corpses.

       The Shardbearer's honor guard caught up with him. He turned, armor seeming to glow as he raised his Blade in a salute of respect toward the bridgemen. Then he charged off in another direction.

- The Way of Kings, p. 876 (my bold lettering)

It thus seems unlikely that Elokhar would have had anything to do with the glow of Dalinar's armour, since the latter reproduces it at a later time without him.

 

It could be argued that the King could have done it in the first instance, and his uncle reproducing it by himself at this much later event, by this time having advanced enough in "honour" to attract a spren and thus becoming able to Surgebind on his own. While certainly plausible, it would be improbable, as Dalinar's PoV chapters have shown no signs of any Spren lurking around him, and Occam's Razor would otherwise reject this theory anyway.

 

The other possible explanation is, of course, that Dalinar himself was the origin of the effect in both cases, which again would suggest a more mundane source of the rather extraordinary effects. He is after all a Master of the Shardplate, far outstripping any other known Shardbearer in skill.

 

While I find that my original theory doesn't hold water after all, I do believe there is something to these two events. Knowing Sanderson's chronic tendency of subtle forshadowing, I refuse to believe this isn't going to become important to some degree later in the story.

 

 

 

EDIT: 

There is one more crazy-theory explanation that I can come up with. It could be that Dalinar does have some Surgebinding-like abilities derived from another source than Spren. He does already have a rather unusual bond to the now deceased Honour. It could be argued that it's possible that he gets other abilities from this bond than seeing visions and speaking Dawnchant.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Aether

[name_here]

My personal theory on the glowing Shardplate is that Dalinar is a very early stage Radiant, and when he acts properly Radiant-ish he causes his Shardplate to function better and begin glowing because it recognizes him as a Radiant and unlocks special features. But it's very subdued because he hasn't properly bonded with a spren.

 

Also, it's not entirely correct to say there's been no sign of a spren hanging around. During some battles he hears a faint voice that might originate from an honorspren. If it hates the Shardblade as much as Syl, it's probably been keeping its distance. Given that the bond is pretty weak, the honorspren probably isn't particularly distinguishable from a typical spren of its apparent type at the moment, if it's even particularly visible. Plus, my current theory has Dalinar as a Stoneward, mostly because he's in the devotary of Taln and both visions with Radiants in them in TWoK had a Stoneward. We know from Shallan and Jasnah that other orders have different forms of spren, so Dalinar might have a less-visible one.

[Aether he/him]

My personal theory on the glowing Shardplate is that Dalinar is a very early stage Radiant, and when he acts properly Radiant-ish he causes his Shardplate to function better and begin glowing because it recognizes him as a Radiant and unlocks special features. But it's very subdued because he hasn't properly bonded with a spren.

 

Also, it's not entirely correct to say there's been no sign of a spren hanging around. During some battles he hears a faint voice that might originate from an honorspren. If it hates the Shardblade as much as Syl, it's probably been keeping its distance. Given that the bond is pretty weak, the honorspren probably isn't particularly distinguishable from a typical spren of its apparent type at the moment, if it's even particularly visible. Plus, my current theory has Dalinar as a Stoneward, mostly because he's in the devotary of Taln and both visions with Radiants in them in TWoK had a Stoneward. We know from Shallan and Jasnah that other orders have different forms of spren, so Dalinar might have a less-visible one.

Could you provide the page numbers? I'd like to reread the chapters where he hears voices.

[hoser he/him]

Could you provide the page numbers? I'd like to reread the chapters where he hears voices.

Here's one:

Chapter 26 "Stillness" p467-468 of the paperback. He is caught between the "Thrill" and a strange revulsion. I don't know whether the revulsion is from his spren or not, but then he experiences thoughts that seem alien to him:

"Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered."

"Life before death. What was that voice?"

[Scott]

Here's one:

Chapter 26 "Stillness" p467-468 of the paperback. He is caught between the "Thrill" and a strange revulsion. I don't know whether the revulsion is from his spren or not, but then he experiences thoughts that seem alien to him:

"Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered."

"Life before death. What was that voice?"

 

Great catch @name_hear, and thanks for the quote hoser.  Upvotes for both of you

 

I had assumed that this was Dalinar's internal monologue when I read it in the book but that seems unlikely in view of the quote.  Dalinar would have heard "Life before death" in his readings of Way of Kings, but it certainly seems like it's not his own voice here.  I've always hoped he did have a spren and that it would show up after he gave away the shardblade.  This makes it more likely that the spren is already there.

 

Syl didn't have cognitive function until long after being drawn to Kaladin.  If Dalinar's possible spren is talking to him, referencing the ideals, and is aware of the history of his blade, then it's likely the spren has been around for some time.  Dalinar never mentions any spren.  I'm curious exactly why;  is it simply revulsion of the shardblade that keeps it away, or does the blade have an actual effect on spren that we don't know about?

[The Count he/him]

Great catch @name_hear, and thanks for the quote hoser.  Upvotes for both of you

 

I had assumed that this was Dalinar's internal monologue when I read it in the book but that seems unlikely in view of the quote.  Dalinar would have heard "Life before death" in his readings of Way of Kings, but it certainly seems like it's not his own voice here.  I've always hoped he did have a spren and that it would show up after he gave away the shardblade.  This makes it more likely that the spren is already there.

 

Syl didn't have cognitive function until long after being drawn to Kaladin.  If Dalinar's possible spren is talking to him, referencing the ideals, and is aware of the history of his blade, then it's likely the spren has been around for some time.  Dalinar never mentions any spren.  I'm curious exactly why;  is it simply revulsion of the shardblade that keeps it away, or does the blade have an actual effect on spren that we don't know about?

I think there is a third possibility.. The voices are a hangover from the visions and are the voice of Honor.

I agree this is very flimsy but we know the visions are having a profound effect on Dalinar and are definitely imparting knowledge to him. There could be some residual effects which manifest at times of stress or significant moments to prod him in more honourable directions.

Edited November 25, 2013 by MadRand

[Aether he/him]

Here's one:

Chapter 26 "Stillness" p467-468 of the paperback. He is caught between the "Thrill" and a strange revulsion. I don't know whether the revulsion is from his spren or not, but then he experiences thoughts that seem alien to him:

"Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered."

"Life before death. What was that voice?"

Thank you, Hoser. I've read the book several times and completely missed this every time.

 

And the pages correspond to page 381 in the hard-cover version for others who want to check this out. Still Chapter 29, though.

 

 

I think there is a third possibility.. The voices are a hangover from the visions and are the voice of Honor.

I agree this is very flimsy but we know the visions are having a profound effect on Dalinar and are definitely imparting knowledge to him. There could be some residual effects which manifest at times of stress or significant moments to prod him in more honourable directions.

We only have flimsy evidence for anything, at best, but given developments later in the book, I think we can rule out the possibility that this is Dalinar's own internal voice, especially given that it seems so out of place from the rest of his internal monologue and that it is accompanied with the very real physical effect of his sickness.

 

This leaves us with a Spren or "after-effects" of the visions as possible origins. It is noteworthy, though, that it is written in italics and in a slightly more elaborate font in the text, in much the same way as the Cryptics speak to Shallan:

 

She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny, yet distinct.

       What are you?

(...)  "What am I?" she whispered. "I'm terrified."

       This is true.

- Chapter 45: Shadesmar, page 643 of the hard-cover version (couldn't find the correct font)

The examples we have, on the other hand, of Honour (or what is left of him) is written in a blocky type of font:

 

       Child of Tanavast. Child of Honour. Child of one since departed. The sudden voice

hook Kaladin; he floundered in the air.

     The Oathpact was shattered.

- Chapter 46: Child of Tanavast, page 648 of the hard-cover version (again, rather clumsy, but effective)

 

       The Words, a voice said, urgent, as if directly into his mind. In that moment, Kaladin was

amazed to realize that he knew them, though they'd never been told to him.

- Chapter 67: Words, page 926 of the hard-cover version.

Now, this might not be the most reliable evidence, but it seems to me much more likely that it is actually Dalinar's Spren talking to him (which we've all suspected he'd get at some point). But to see evidence of  this so early (yeah, I'm already treating it as a fact set in stone) almost makes me squee like a fanboy!

 

 

(ok, I did squee.)

Edited November 25, 2013 by Aether

[The Count he/him]

I guess my hesitation in naming it as Dalinar's spren is that, if it is, then he seems to have had no direct contact with it.

 

Both Kaladin and Shallan have direct contact and conversation with their spren (almost against their will). Dalinar has not.

 

Lift and Ym have also had direct conversation with their respective spren.

 

The presence of the Shardblade to explain this (as given above) is slightly suspect as an argument since Shallan is also in possession of a blade (although I agree she has not really used it).

 

This is why I am tending toward a spiritual connection to some remnant of Honor for the visions, glowyness and voices.

 

On the other hand, we all agree that Dalinar is a prime candidate for a spren and really should have got one by now...

 

I remain on the fence with this one.

 

EDIT: We have not had a POV from Jasnah yet so we do not know if she has had an conversation with her spren or not. Either way she is too accomplished at keeping secrets to do so when anyone else is around.

Edited November 25, 2013 by MadRand

[Aether he/him]

I guess my hesitation in naming it as Dalinar's spren is that, if it is, then he seems to have had no direct contact with it.

 

Both Kaladin and Shallan have direct contact and conversation with their spren (almost against their will). Dalinar has not.

 

Lift and Ym have also had direct conversation with their respective spren.

 

The presence of the Shardblade to explain this (as given above) is slightly suspect as an argument since Shallan is also in possession of a blade (although I agree she has not really used it).

 

This is why I am tending toward a spiritual connection to some remnant of Honor for the visions, glowyness and voices.

 

On the other hand, we all agree that Dalinar is a prime candidate for a spren and really should have got one by now...

 

I remain on the fence with this one.

 

EDIT: We have not had a POV from Jasnah yet so we do not know if she has had an conversation with her spren or not. Either way she is too accomplished at keeping secrets to do so when anyone else is around.

Do note, on the other hand, that we've already got evidence of two radically different ways Nahel Spren communicates with their "hosts". Sylphrena and Wyndle have a quasi-physical manifestation visible to their hosts that they use to convers with them. In Shallan's (and presumably Elokhar's) case, they are invisible even to their host except for in quite specific situations (appearing in Shallan's drawings when her mind wanders and appearing to Elokhar in mirrors) and only speaks directly into their minds (confirmed for Shallan, assumed for Elokhar).

 

So for all we know, Dalnar's Spren might present another way of manifesting before their host, in addition to the arguments already presented.

[dionysus]

Also Dalinar could be a unique case since he has received a boon and curse from the Nightwatcher. I also think it is wrong to assume that his memory loss is the curse and not the boon..

Edited November 25, 2013 by dionysus

[Aether he/him]

Also Dalinar could be a unique case since he has received a boon and curse from the Nightwatcher. I also think it is wrong to assume that his memory loss is the curse and not the boon..

It seems to be suggested quite directly in the book that his bond to the Nightwatcher / Cultivation is independent of his later visions. Dalinar has claimed to know what both his boon and curse is, and I thus do not think it could be the origin of this particular voice. Other than that, I agree, I too have been thinking that the memory loss could be the boon and not the curse, though frankly, it can only be a mere baseless assumption at this point.

 

A good one though.

[Daishi5]

I think that Dalinar's glow is simple.  He glows when he is protecting those who can't protect themselves.  The first case, Elhokar was going to be killed, it states that his mind was suddenly clear and only one thing was important, protecting his brother's son.  In the second case, the bridgemen are about to be cut down and they have no defense against the archers.  

 

I think there was something wrong with his blade, but in those two instances he was acting with purely honorable intentions to protect people, and something about that enabled him to access his plate better.  I think the visions also said something like "act with honor and honor will aid you."  

 

I remember the first scene really well because I was not new to Brandon's work when I read it the first time, so I was looking for the way magic was driven in this system.  At first I thought Dalinar was glowing because he really cared.  I feared that Roshar was going to be the care-bear magic system of the Cosmere.  

[Argent he/him]

I think that Dalinar's glow is simple.  He glows when he is protecting those who can't protect themselves. 

 

Only, this can't be the case. Not literally. Dalinar is not a Windrunner, his pseudo-powers (if he does, in fact, display them) lie in a different direction. So his Second Ideal would be different.

[Daishi5]

Only, this can't be the case. Not literally. Dalinar is not a Windrunner, his pseudo-powers (if he does, in fact, display them) lie in a different direction. So his Second Ideal would be different.

I think it is more related to the intent of the shard of honor "act with honor and honor will aide you"  than it is related to a set of ideals.  

[Argent he/him]

That's quote possible. I was picking on the specific wording about how his armor seems to glow when he is protecting those who cannot protect themselves. This is very specific behavior in the Stormlight Archive.