swablueme Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I hope that Kelsier doesn't pull a Char Aznable. I'm fond of Kelsier and wish to believe that he had a change of heart towards the end. 1
Evil_Reptile Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I don't buy it. Kelsier, just before his death became far less hateful towards the nobles. He saves Elend, for one. Also, in his final note, the one that Vin gets after Kell's death, he says that he didn't want Vin to kill the high Nobility anymore. The High Nobility. They are the worst skaa-murdering, money-hoarding, heartless people since, well, since the Lord Ruler himself. And Kell has mercy on them. The nobility of the second mistborn era are far better. Corrupt, yes, but not nearly as bad as, say, Straff. Or any of the Nobility save Elend, really. Maybe with three hundred years of unmitigated Ruin-ness, he might go crazy. However, I think Sazed knew him too well to do something like that. Anybody would be a better holder for his extra Ruin investiture than Kelsier. Heck, even Marsh, since he has experience with resisting Ruin. Kelsier turning evil like that just seems wrong to me. 2
ArchonTremaine Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) My bet? Given events in SoS is that the Puppet Master IS Harmony, his huge streak of 'OBEY ME OR I DESTROY EVERYTING YOU LOVE AND DRIVE YOU INSANE' shocked me, but he entered villian territory right then for me. Their is no possible justification for what he did to Wax and Lessie, none. (EDIT : Lessie even) For someone who is supposed to be all about fre will, he has a huge number of mind raped slaves. Edited October 8, 2015 by ArchonTremaine
Landis963 he/him Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 My bet? Given events in SoS is that the Puppet Master IS Harmony, his huge streak of 'OBEY ME OR I DESTROY EVERYTING YOU LOVE AND DRIVE YOU INSANE' shocked me, but he entered villian territory right then for me. Their is no possible justification for what he did to Wax and Lessie, none. (EDIT : Lessie even) For someone who is supposed to be all about fre will, he has a huge number of mind raped slaves. You say that as though it was Harmony's plan they fall in love, and lots of things would be much simpler, especially to an viewpoint that can see the future, if they had not. Furthermore, we have evidence that another Shard is muscling in on Harmony's turf, and said Shard is unlikely to have Scadrial's best interests at heart (this goes double if it's that Shard serial killer that's supposed to be trapped in Greater Roshar). If Harmony means to defend his people, I have difficulty thinking of a scenario where he wouldn't manipulate a human pawn of some kind. Paalm just made the inevitable call-out that much worse.
natc Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 When you've ascended to godhood you're forced to see the bigger picture, really. And letting two people have their freedom while millions burn in hell because nobody came to save them really isn't maximizing free will all that well. Plus, he never actually threatened anyone, so not sure what Tremaine is going on about. And I'm not sure someone who spent the whole book merely reacting to a problem he proved to know little about can really be scene as the real puppet master here. 2
ArchonTremaine Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) When you've ascended to godhood you're forced to see the bigger picture, really. And letting two people have their freedom while millions burn in hell because nobody came to save them really isn't maximizing free will all that well. Plus, he never actually threatened anyone, so not sure what Tremaine is going on about. And I'm not sure someone who spent the whole book merely reacting to a problem he proved to know little about can really be scene as the real puppet master here. He set up the events with Bloody Tan, his actions drove Paalm insane. (She had to choose, free will and madness or being controlled by Harmony and being sane enough to know she was a slave on a leash) She chose freedom. But the threat was implicit, slavery or madness for the entire species as far as I can tell, and that makes a lie of his 'free will' stance. He had another option, he can communicate with people and reason, but he chooses coercion, every time. Which, in my book, makes him villianous, maybe a well intentioned extremist, but a villian none the less. Note: this does not make him less interesting ,just that him dying and being replaced with some oen who actually cares about free will, and the cost of such, is a goal I can get behind. Edited October 9, 2015 by ArchonTremaine
natc Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Risk of enslavememt if you do something that would potentially endanger the masses. He's never actually used the Flaw until he had no choice. If someone is preventing a capable person from going elsewhere to save lives, even though that's what the hero wants. If someone is going around trying to topple human society. If you could stop them from doing so with the flip of a switch, wouldn't you do it? Those people that might become victims if you don't have just as much right to live on and exercise free will. The madness isn't even his fault. They're mistwraiths, they're not even supposed to have sentience unless you surgically graft literal pieces of human souls onto them with spikes. To be kandra is to have to accept that their minds aren't really a natural part of them, they're hemalurgic constructs. If there's anyone to blame, blame Rashek for making his own people into mindless beasts. 1
ArchonTremaine Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Risk of enslavememt if you do something that would potentially endanger the masses. He's never actually used the Flaw until he had no choice. If someone is preventing a capable person from going elsewhere to save lives, even though that's what the hero wants. If someone is going around trying to topple human society. If you could stop them from doing so with the flip of a switch, wouldn't you do it? Those people that might become victims if you don't have just as much right to live on and exercise free will. The madness isn't even his fault. They're mistwraiths, they're not even supposed to have sentience unless you surgically graft literal pieces of human souls onto them with spikes. To be kandra is to have to accept that their minds aren't really a natural part of them, they're hemalurgic constructs. If there's anyone to blame, blame Rashek for making his own people into mindless beasts. No. Slavery is immoral, no if, buts or other provisos, slavery like torture is never justified. Death is preferable. So kill the mist wraiths, if the only choice is that or enslave them. Edited October 9, 2015 by ArchonTremaine
natc Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Well, if freedom matters so much more than everything else we should go and set every criminal in the world free from jail then . . . Yeah, let's just have god watch as people die in Elendel because the hero they need and deserve is happily chilling in the Roughs and the one person who can get him to leave says no. Supposedly he didn't even control her that time. The time he did, it was that or watch the world Vin and Elend sacrificed their lives to save burn to the ground. Preservation can see the future. Sazed knew what was coming, and if coercing one kandra is all it would take, then Rusts and Ruin he's going to have to do it. Because nobody else can. 1
vineyarddawg Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Let's swerve this to the left for a moment... could Kelsier be involved, but by leading Bleeder (or someone from the Set... or heck, even Miles) to visit Sel and pick up splinters from either Devotion or Dominion? Or, for that matter, could the "real power broker(s)" in the Set actually be a worldhopper from Sel? Perhaps a Shu-Dereth worldhopper? 1
ArchonTremaine Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Well, if freedom matters so much more than everything else we should go and set every criminal in the world free from jail then . . . Yeah, let's just have god watch as people die in Elendel because the hero they need and deserve is happily chilling in the Roughs and the one person who can get him to leave says no. Supposedly he didn't even control her that time. The time he did, it was that or watch the world Vin and Elend sacrificed their lives to save burn to the ground. Preservation can see the future. Sazed knew what was coming, and if coercing one kandra is all it would take, then Rusts and Ruin he's going to have to do it. Because nobody else can. Tell Wax what he is needed to do and let him choose. Simple. OR be as large a threat to the world as any other shard, he chose to be a the Big Bad. His own free will and his own claimed laws damnation him to death, now we only wait the guy with the noose. If you represent freedom you take the result of that freedom. If you don't then do not claim to and admit to being a benevolent (to an extent) tyrant. As I said previously, slavery like torture is NEVER justified, no if buts or maybes, it is NEVER justified. Jailing people, who commited a crime of their own free will after a fair trial, is not the same thing Edited October 9, 2015 by ArchonTremaine 1
DreamEternal Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 My only problem with Sazed's methods: He could have just told Wax he was needed elsewhere and reveled Lessie was a Kandra sent to protect him. I mean, what is the point of hidding his hand? Asking his agents for help strikes me as more "free willy" than manipulating him by making them. Especialy if it is someone like Wax, who would listen. 2
+Slowswift Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I agree that he could've told Wax directly. But the thing is, would Wax just take Harmony's word for it? Wax has made clear on several occasions that he really did not like the city. He was just fine with the Roughs and had no desire to go back. Also, I never got the sense that Harmony compelled the kandra to serve him. It's only when they were a clear and present danger (like Paalm was) that he took control of them, or when the fate of the world hung in the balance (like maybe if there was an invading Shard). 1
Seonid he/him Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 He set up the events with Bloody Tan, his actions drove Paalm insane. (She had to choose, free will and madness or being controlled by Harmony and being sane enough to know she was a slave on a leash) She chose freedom. But the threat was implicit, slavery or madness for the entire species as far as I can tell, and that makes a lie of his 'free will' stance. He had another option, he can communicate with people and reason, but he chooses coercion, every time. Which, in my book, makes him villianous, maybe a well intentioned extremist, but a villian none the less. Note: this does not make him less interesting ,just that him dying and being replaced with some oen who actually cares about free will, and the cost of such, is a goal I can get behind. We don't know any of this. He doesn't threaten the use of the Flaw. We don't know that Harmony set up the events with Bloody Tan. We don't know that Paalm went insane because of that. With the information we have, it could just as easily be the case that Bloody Tan was Paalm trying to get out of Harmony's control. We do have confirmation that Harmony never used the Flaw on Paalm until the last moment of the book. We have no reason to believe that he has used it on any other kandra. He doesn't enslave them. If they choose not to follow him, he allows it. He only intervene when they start murdering (a reasonable stance to me). On your second point - he does reason with Paalm. Repeatedly. He was pushing very hard for her to do something she didn't want to do, using reason and persuasion, and she chose to take herself out of his realm of influence. When she doesn't respond to reason, he still doesn't enslave her. It's only when she takes action that will end in mass destruction that he attempts to. 1
ArchonTremaine Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) We don't know any of this. He doesn't threaten the use of the Flaw. We don't know that Harmony set up the events with Bloody Tan. We don't know that Paalm went insane because of that. With the information we have, it could just as easily be the case that Bloody Tan was Paalm trying to get out of Harmony's control. We do have confirmation that Harmony never used the Flaw on Paalm until the last moment of the book. We have no reason to believe that he has used it on any other kandra. He doesn't enslave them. If they choose not to follow him, he allows it. He only intervene when they start murdering (a reasonable stance to me). On your second point - he does reason with Paalm. Repeatedly. He was pushing very hard for her to do something she didn't want to do, using reason and persuasion, and she chose to take herself out of his realm of influence. When she doesn't respond to reason, he still doesn't enslave her. It's only when she takes action that will end in mass destruction that he attempts to. The attempt itself, no matter the reason, is an evil action, capital E no redemption evil. Slavery is NEVER justified torture is NEVER justified, the end. No if, no but, no maybe. If it's let a million die or enslave 1 person, the moral act is let a million die. If however killing the person you would want to enslave is an option, that is the moral act. We kind of do though, bloody Tan describes meeting death, and hearing a voice commanding and demading actions of him, that sounds to me like Marsh and Harmony. Edited October 10, 2015 by ArchonTremaine 2
Seonid he/him Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 The attempt itself, no matter the reason, is an evil action, capital E no redemption evil. Slavery is NEVER justified torture is NEVER justified, the end. No if, no but, no maybe. If it's let a million die or enslave 1 person, the moral act is let a million die. If however killing the person you would want to enslave is an option, that is the moral act. We kind of do though, bloody Tan describes meeting death, and hearing a voice commanding and demading actions of him, that sounds to me like Marsh and Harmony. Those are hefty moral judgements you are throwing around there. I'm going to engage your last point first. Certainly, it could be the case that harmony and marsh are what bloody tan is taking about here. But we don't have proof of that. And you are throwing extremely strong moral claims on the basis of a "sounds like." Are we to take the word of an insane man without even asking if there might be more to the story than he told us? Moving on to your assertions on the nature of morality - I'm not suite where torture came in. I'm not talking about torture. Nobody in this thread is talking about torture. That's a non sequitur at the moment. With regard to slavery, let me ask you first, what is your definition of slavery? It will be hard to have a productive conversation without first knowing what we mean when we use a term. I'll let you speak first, in order to present your own definitions. But I do need to know how you define the term. Lastly, why? Why us slavery irredeemable compared to murder or genocide? What is so much worse about it that letting somebody else end a million lives is preferable to a single instance of it? A short end-note: have you read the original Mistborn trilogy? And if so, how do you feel about vin and Elend, who used allomancy to control trends of thousands of koloss in a similar manner? Are they irredeemably evil, even though they were acting to try and prevent the literal end of the world? Just food for thought. 3
ArchonTremaine Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Those are hefty moral judgements you are throwing around there. I'm going to engage your last point first. Certainly, it could be the case that harmony and marsh are what bloody tan is taking about here. But we don't have proof of that. And you are throwing extremely strong moral claims on the basis of a "sounds like." Are we to take the word of an insane man without even asking if there might be more to the story than he told us? Moving on to your assertions on the nature of morality - I'm not suite where torture came in. I'm not talking about torture. Nobody in this thread is talking about torture. That's a non sequitur at the moment. With regard to slavery, let me ask you first, what is your definition of slavery? It will be hard to have a productive conversation without first knowing what we mean when we use a term. I'll let you speak first, in order to present your own definitions. But I do need to know how you define the term. Lastly, why? Why us slavery irredeemable compared to murder or genocide? What is so much worse about it that letting somebody else end a million lives is preferable to a single instance of it? A short end-note: have you read the original Mistborn trilogy? And if so, how do you feel about vin and Elend, who used allomancy to control trends of thousands of koloss in a similar manner? Are they irredeemably evil, even though they were acting to try and prevent the literal end of the world? Just food for thought. On the end note: yes, and they died, if Harmony had made that same sacrifice, his own death as penance, then it would have been less bad. In this case slavery is: the obliteration of a persons will, either by threat of pain/death to self or others, or as Harmony does, literal removal of that will. I used the example of torture because it was during a debate on that issue, and some common theoretical situations used to justify it, that I came to this conclusion. In this case slavery is worse than death because it directly makes a free willed sentient nothing more than an object, a tool of anothers will, and they then can be used to do further harm, this is worse than a killing because, while death is terrible and an evil in and of itself, it does not make the target a tool, they remain themselves even if only in death, a slave looses that.
natc Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Harmony never stopped Paalm from killing herself. He literally did nothing after taking over besides having her do nothing instead of trying to crush civilization as we know it. That's no worse than tying someone up in a straightjacket. 1
ArchonTremaine Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Harmony never stopped Paalm from killing herself. He literally did nothing after taking over besides having her do nothing instead of trying to crush civilization as we know it. That's no worse than tying someone up in a straightjacket. I'm not that convinced bringing the civilisation depicted crashing down would be a bad thing, which is the other side of this coin.
natc Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Most if not all civilizations are terrible places to live in. Lawlessness and slaughter is worse. 4
ArchonTremaine Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Most if not all civilizations are terrible places to live in. Lawlessness and slaughter is worse. Except the one desribed is in stasis, and stagnating towards a slow oblivion, so mercy kill it and hope something better comes along. Without anyone oneying Harmony, who deserves the sam scorn Lord Ruler did. Edited October 10, 2015 by ArchonTremaine
DreamEternal Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Except the one desribed is in stasis, and stagnating towards a slow oblivion, so mercy kill it and hope something better comes along. Without anyone oneying Harmony, who deserves the sam scorn Lord Ruler did. Why do you think it is stagnating towards slow oblivion? The people are fighting for better rights, for the first time a man with no noble blood is governor, it was show that no one can walk away from their crimes because they are highborn. The world is changing. Even if the corrupt can find ways to escape, and they get one of theirs elected, there will still be symbols of change forged in this time. And Wax did say the days when a noblemen, even an allomancer, could silence a crowd with a stare are passing. There is still hope for this society. In part because Harmony stoped it from destroying itself. Sazed's methods may be controversial, but to compare him to the Lord Ruler is unfair. Edited October 10, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 3
ArchonTremaine Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Why do you think it is stagnating towards slow oblivion? The people are fighting for better rights, for the first time a man with no noble blood is governor, it was show that no one can walk away from their crimes because they are highborn. The world is changing. Even if the corrupt can find ways to escape, and they get one of theirs elected, there will still be symbols of change forged in this time. And Wax did say the days when a noblemen, even an allomancer, could silence a crowd with a stare are passing. There is still hope for this society. In part because Harmony stoped it from destroying itself. Sazed's methods may be controversial, but to compare him to the Lord Ruler is unfair. Why? They both dominate 'for the greater good', they both force a direction they want on society, they both manipulate and brutalise in equal measure any who disagree, Lord ruler was less subtle about it, yes, but both do it, so the comparison seems fair.
DreamEternal Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Why? They both dominate 'for the greater good', they both force a direction they want on society, they both manipulate and brutalise in equal measure any who disagree, Lord ruler was less subtle about it, yes, but both do it, so the comparison seems fair.There are much more things I disagree with here than I feel like adressing in one reply, so I will only leave this answer:The Lord Ruler created a system in wich maintening the opression was one of its pillars in order to keep himself in power. Sazed interfers subtly with the (much less opressive)system in order to make sure it eventualy reaches a point in wich his intervention becomes unnecessary. EDIT: And you just ignored most of the post you quoted, since you didn't adress why the society of Elendel should be destroyed, since it shows more promise of getting better under Harmony's influence than it would of "rising from the ashes". Edited October 10, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 1
Argent he/him Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I am sorry, @Archon, but if you feel Harmony and the Lord Ruler "both manipulate and brutalise in equal measure any who disagree," I just can't respond with reason. The Final Empire was so much worse than Era 2, if you can't see that I have to believe you have a strong personal vendetta against Harmony specifically. At which point I don't know how reliable your arguments are =\ 4
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