Is there anything wrong with Shardplate?

[Gloom he/him]

Yes, you're right, it was the War of Loss. The Sunmaker was the Alethi King.

[marianmi]

Gloom, why do you think Tanavast died during the Sunmaker war? Is it because the Vorin authorities became dishonorable when they tried to conquer the world? That interests me since Teft's family apparently followed Old Vorinism and he is teaching Kaladin about the Radiants.

By the way, I agree that the Radiants disbanding did not kill Tanavast since they were relatively recent though surgebinders were around for a long time before.

 

I think Honor was already dead by then. All clues point to the fact that at least one Vorin priest received the same/or similar visions as Dalinar. They have tried to "unite the world", and were defeated, interrogated, tortured by Sunmaker.

 

"When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate an control the people."

 

Looks to be this was indeed a victory for Odium, but I think Honor was already dead.

Edited November 7, 2013 by marianmi

[Argent he/him]

Funny you should mention that quote. I wanted to talk about it a while back, but couldn't find a good thread for it, and my comments didn't warrant a new topic, so I just let it sit. But now... yes, it is possible that the report is true, but it stinks a little to me. Maybe it's the way it's delivered, but it sounds too simple to me - and neither the real world, nor Brandon is usually this simple. For some odd reason I find it likely that the priests were receiving prophecies, but from a source other than the Almighty, and they knew it. So instead of admitting that they had been listening to some dark god, they tell the Sunmaker's gang that it was all a fabrication. I don't know, but they feel like martyrs to me here. It would be a very Brandon thing to do...

[Gloom he/him]

Or they may have been receiving instructions directly from a Herald, and were covering for him.

[Ethrien he/him]

I don't know about them holding back information, I'm assuming interrogation = torture is a fair substitute to make and I don't see the rank and file of a priesthood holding up to torture indefinitely. The way I see it "there was no visions" can be one of two things

1. What Sunmaker wanted to hear.

2. The Truth (which is still what he wanted to hear)

Sunmaker needed them to confess to at least that much. It wouldn't really do for him to slaughter and torture the representatives of God on Roshar; then turn around to his people with "Hey guys, my bad. Turns out those guys really were holy. Who'd have thought it, now I'll just get back to ruling all of you I've dammed for eternity for following my orders."

 

Edit: Just occurred to me that this doesn't really rule out 'Dark God', the priests give up the 'fabrication' line, Sunmaker gets what he whats and the priests keep their secrets.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Ethrien

[The Count he/him]

Funny you should mention that quote. I wanted to talk about it a while back, but couldn't find a good thread for it, and my comments didn't warrant a new topic, so I just let it sit. But now... yes, it is possible that the report is true, but it stinks a little to me. Maybe it's the way it's delivered, but it sounds too simple to me - and neither the real world, nor Brandon is usually this simple. For some odd reason I find it likely that the priests were receiving prophecies, but from a source other than the Almighty, and they knew it. So instead of admitting that they had been listening to some dark god, they tell the Sunmaker's gang that it was all a fabrication. I don't know, but they feel like martyrs to me here. It would be a very Brandon thing to do...

 

I don't know, I think maybe some 'good' priests were recieving visions just like Dalinar's. However the bigwigs of the church were corrupt and used the genuine visions as an excuse for trying to seize power. 

 

If the 'bad' priests were passing off the genuine vision as their own, then when interviewed / tortured, it may well have seemed like fabrications. 

Edited November 8, 2013 by MadRand

[Fistsofrage]

I don't know, I think maybe some 'good' priests were recieving visions just like Dalinar's. However the bigwigs of the church were corrupt and used the genuine visions as an excuse for trying to seize power. 

 

If the 'bad' priests were passing off the genuine vision as their own, then when interviewed / tortured, it may well have seemed like fabrications. 

 

Yes...maybe they were would-be radiants, and this is the first instance of darkness dude's effort to put a stop to spren-human bonding...maybe darkness managed to cover it up as a conspiracy of the priests to takeover...

 

Edit: I know I've been mentioning darkness in all my theories lately but he is such a good scapegoat lol.

[dyring]

My wiew was the same as some here, shardblade = tied to a specifik KR, created by him and his spren most likely, and they were never meant to be held by anyone else than the creator. The great wrong may well have been that they didnt just leave, the made a show of it and forcibly dropped ther blades, a part of their soul so to speak, almost a volontary hemalurgic process. So those owning a shardblade, its an effect on their soul as if they were spiked by hemalurgy, a piece of soul put above their own soul.

 

So the process of gaining a shardblade is very close to hemalurgy in my mind.

[Beautor he/him]

Funny you should mention that quote. I wanted to talk about it a while back, but couldn't find a good thread for it, and my comments didn't warrant a new topic, so I just let it sit. But now... yes, it is possible that the report is true, but it stinks a little to me. Maybe it's the way it's delivered, but it sounds too simple to me - and neither the real world, nor Brandon is usually this simple. For some odd reason I find it likely that the priests were receiving prophecies, but from a source other than the Almighty, and they knew it. So instead of admitting that they had been listening to some dark god, they tell the Sunmaker's gang that it was all a fabrication. I don't know, but they feel like martyrs to me here. It would be a very Brandon thing to do...

 

The thing about this situation is that it is entirely possible that the Sunmaker did not believe in the Vorin priest's religion, so even if the priests did profess divine direction he would have discounted it. There's numerous examples of individuals in the the book who either discount the religion of their people directly, or at most only pay it lip-service rather that being an actual devotee. If the Sunmaker believed that the priests of the Hierocracy were wrong and faking it would make sense that he would declare that he had reviewed all their correspondence and that they had made the whole thing up. It is also quite possible that a priest, or several priests who upon being subjected to torture would recant their statements about receiving divine directions just so the torture would stop. There are examples in history of people who have changed their avowed position and signed whatever statement their torturer tells them to because they can't take the suffering anymore.  It's entirely plausible to me that the Sunmaker would use lies and propaganda to justify his takeover and solidify his rule.

[Fistsofrage]

The thing about this situation is that it is entirely possible that the Sunmaker did not believe in the Vorin priest's religion, so even if the priests did profess divine direction he would have discounted it. There's numerous examples of individuals in the the book who either discount the religion of their people directly, or at most only pay it lip-service rather that being an actual devotee. If the Sunmaker believed that the priests of the Hierocracy were wrong and faking it would make sense that he would declare that he had reviewed all their correspondence and that they had made the whole thing up. It is also quite possible that a priest, or several priests who upon being subjected to torture would recant their statements about receiving divine directions just so the torture would stop. There are examples in history of people who have changed their avowed position and signed whatever statement their torturer tells them to because they can't take the suffering anymore. It's entirely plausible to me that the Sunmaker would use lies and propaganda to justify his takeover and solidify his rule.

Nice analysis. This brings a whole new aspect to the story. Wonder if it will ever be explained in detail or just left to our imagination. It's one of those things that can be left alone without affecting the story much.

[marianmi]

I don't know about them holding back information, I'm assuming interrogation = torture is a fair substitute to make and I don't see the rank and file of a priesthood holding up to torture indefinitely. The way I see it "there was no visions" can be one of two things

1. What Sunmaker wanted to hear.

2. The Truth (which is still what he wanted to hear)

Sunmaker needed them to confess to at least that much. It wouldn't really do for him to slaughter and torture the representatives of God on Roshar; then turn around to his people with "Hey guys, my bad. Turns out those guys really were holy. Who'd have thought it, now I'll just get back to ruling all of you I've dammed for eternity for following my orders."

 

Edit: Just occurred to me that this doesn't really rule out 'Dark God', the priests give up the 'fabrication' line, Sunmaker gets what he whats and the priests keep their secrets.

 

3) he heard the truth, and decided to tell everyone there were no visions... (even if they were). -- probably he was a tool of odium

[Ethrien he/him]

3) he heard the truth, and decided to tell everyone there were no visions... (even if they were). -- probably he was a tool of odium

I don't see that as a separate point to number 1. While I'll freely admit to not having a lot of personal experience with torture, its use in fiction is often to get the confession you want out of the person you've decided is guilty. He heard the truth, and decided to keep applying thumb screws and hot pokers until he found a 'truth' more to his liking.

[marianmi]

I don't see that as a separate point to number 1. While I'll freely admit to not having a lot of personal experience with torture, its use in fiction is often to get the confession you want out of the person you've decided is guilty. He heard the truth, and decided to keep applying thumb screws and hot pokers until he found a 'truth' more to his liking.

 

I wanted to differentiate the cases when he is unwittingly and ... wittingly ... a tool of odium - as in if he is aware of Odium as a shard or not.

[Dros]

Funny you should mention that quote. I wanted to talk about it a while back, but couldn't find a good thread for it, and my comments didn't warrant a new topic, so I just let it sit. But now... yes, it is possible that the report is true, but it stinks a little to me. Maybe it's the way it's delivered, but it sounds too simple to me - and neither the real world, nor Brandon is usually this simple. For some odd reason I find it likely that the priests were receiving prophecies, but from a source other than the Almighty, and they knew it. So instead of admitting that they had been listening to some dark god, they tell the Sunmaker's gang that it was all a fabrication. I don't know, but they feel like martyrs to me here. It would be a very Brandon thing to do...

 

I don't know, it kind of sounds like the Sunmaker went the way of the Salem Witch Trials to me. The village citizens weren't bad people, but they really believed in witches and when someone accused another, they listened to the church for guidance. The church had the people's minds and as long as they followed some sort of process, the people would believe it. People will tell you just about anything under torture to make you stop. In the immortal words of Mr.White from Reservoir Dogs:

 

....Now if it's a manager, that's a different story. Managers know better than to XXXX around, so if you get one that's giving you static, he probably thinks he's a real cowboy, so you gotta break that son of a XXXXXX in two. If you wanna know something and he won't tell you, cut off one of his fingers. The little one. Then tell him his thumb's next. After that he'll tell you if he wears ladies underwear. I'm hungry. Let's get a taco.

 

@Ethrien

 

1. While I'll freely admit to not having a lot of personal experience with torture, its use in fiction is often to get the confession you want out of the person you've decided is guilty. He heard the truth, and decided to keep applying thumb screws and hot pokers until he found a 'truth' more to his liking.

 

 

I agree. The DoD puts out something called the Code of Conduct. It is to be applied when you are a POW and, if you follow the Code, it will allow you to return home with honor. Implicit in the Code is an acknowledgement that you will break...the only question is how long it will take. You are required to make it take as long as possible.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Dros