im_not_superman Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 I've read every Cosmere book that Brandon Sanderson wrote, I understand breaths, allomancy, Feruchemy, and Aons (or the basic principles, at least). However, within the Stormlight Archive books (with 2 rereads) I cannot get even a basic understanding for the magic system. Titles such as 'Windrunner' come up where they contain 2 different fields of investitures; is this akin to twinborns? In simple terms, what are the difference between all the lashings? How many types of known lashings are there at this time? How does each Surge perform i.e. adhesion, gravitation, division, abrasion, progression, illumination, transformation, transportation, cohesion, tension; and what are the differences between them? I've read through the forum trying to understand the way other people explain it, but it's just not clicking, and this is important, because the information that I'm missing, or simply not understanding, could be substantial when creating and understanding ties with not just Roshar, but how they are connected along the cognitive, spiritual, and physical realm. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mckeedee123 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Well, it's pretty simple. Basically, once someone forms a bond with a spren, they can sort of bribe spren (with Stormlight) to do what they want. Each order has the ability to bribe two types of spren representing "fundamental forces." For the Windrunners, it's Gravity and Air Pressure. The "lashings" are basically just every way that these two Surges can be used together. There are ten orders of Radiants. Each one can manipulate exactly two types of ten available spren, like gravityspren, adhesionspren, tensionspren, spacespren (?)... The exception to this are Surgebinders with the ability to Soulcast (the Elsecaller and Lightweaver orders, to be exact,) who can apparently bribe the spren of any physical object to change what they're made out of, in lieu of one of their spren types. Edited September 20, 2015 by Mckeedee123 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Hi there, welcome to the forums! I think reading the Ars Arcanum at the back of Words of Radiance will clear up most of your confusion. Here's the main bit: THE TEN SURGES As a complement to the Essences, the classical elements celebrated on Roshar, are found the Ten Surges. These— thought to be the fundamental forces by which the world operates— are more accurately a representation of the ten basic abilities offered to the Heralds, and then the Knights Radiant, by their bonds. Adhesion: The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum Gravitation: The Surge of Gravity Division: The Surge of Destruction and Decay Abrasion: The Surge of Friction Progression: The Surge of Growth and Healing, or Regrowth Illumination: The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms Transformation: The Surge of Soulcasting Transportation: The Surge of Motion and Realmatic Transition Cohesion: The Surge of Strong Axial Interconnection Tension: The Surge of Soft Axial Interconnection We don't know what, or how most of the Surges operate in detail. We have yet to see Division, Cohesion, or Tension used on-screen. We have hints that Division can melt stones, WoB says Cohesion could allow you to stick your hand on a table and leave a handprint like the table is wet concrete, and Tension can make things stif (imagine making a piece of paper as hard as steel and cutting things with it). Each order of KR bonded a single type of spren, which grants the ability to use the abilities. (So, if you bond a liespren, you are called a Lightweaver, if you bond an honorspren, you are called a Windrunner. There is also one Honorblade for each order granting the same powers as the spren grants.) Each KR is granted access to two Surges, and shares each Surge with another order. Here is a graphic showing which orders get what: (http://omnia-fortunae-commito.tumblr.com/post/79001465674/updated-annotated-surgebinding-chart-spoilers) You can read full descriptions of every known magic from the Ars Arcanum at the end of WoR. It describes the Lashings fully. Don't hesitate to ask more questions if anything is unclear! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The surges don't really "perform" that list off things, those are names for the surges themselves. All surgebinders command two surges naturally, dependent on the bonded spren/honorblade, and there's really not much else to explain in the "how" department besides "I inhale stormlight, then shape it to do certain things when I put the stormlight into objects". The lashings are just what windrunners of old used to refer to various common uses of there abilities, because I doubt a bunch of people from stone/bronze age tech-level societies know enough about physics to be able to tell you which of their powers uses vacuum pressure and which alters gravity. We do not really know if bondsmiths or skybreakers share this terminology with the abilities they share with windrunners. It's fundamentally not too different from allomancy, really. You take external investiture and bring it into yourself, and then shape it to produce a specific result. In allomancy, however, it's just that you burn a metal to break it down, and depending on the atomic structure of the metal burned you unconsciously send the message "Hey, Preservation, give me power molded in [this] way to do [that]" and Preservation does so automatically. God metals are exceptions and might be closer to surgebinding than normal metals. With surgebinding, you have to procure the power (stormlight) personally by collecting it in a highstorm with gems or some other method, then absorb it into your body and shape it yourself to do something. The spren bonded to your soul determines what forms you are capable of manifesting, while with allomancy what you can produce depends on what you can burn, which is encoded into your spiritual DNA at birth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Titles such as 'Windrunner' come up where they contain 2 different fields of investitures; is this akin to twinborns? Not exactly: Windrunners use one field of Investiture, namely Surgebinding. The Surgebinders are most akin to Mistlings/Ferrings: they can use a part of a whole Investiture-System. The relation between Windrunners and, for example, Edgedancers is like those between Coinshots and, let's say, Tineyes. They are still in the same Investiture system, but for first look their Investiture looks unrelated. If you look closer, you see the similarities; especially the focus of the Investiture is similar: metal (or, better said, the burning of metal) in the case of both allomancers; and the consumption of stormlight in the case of both surgebinders. Twinborn use two different magic systems: Allomancy and Feruchemy. Theoretically it would be possible to cross these two systems with Surgebinding (with equally oscure and fascinating results). Would be interesting to look at a Windrunner-Lurcher or Truthwatcher-Pewterarm or something like it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Theoretically it would be possible to cross these two systems with Surgebinding (with equally oscure and fascinating results). Would be interesting to look at a Windrunner-Lurcher or Truthwatcher-Pewterarm or something like it. Ooh, has anyone asked if a Nahel bond would be possible for someone not from Roshar? We know several other planets magic is very restricted, but that doesn't mean Roshar's is. jW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Ooh, has anyone asked if a Nahel bond would be possible for someone not from Roshar? We know several other planets magic is very restricted, but that doesn't mean Roshar's is. jW There shouln't be a limitation like that for "Extraplanetar Humans". We know that other kind of Bonds gain Power on Roshar (like the Seon bond) and that probably the Roshar's Peoples themself aren't native of Roshar. With this two points in mind I think that for a Spren a Roshar-Human and another kind of Human, could be both Bond-Partner with the right prerequisite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Ooh, has anyone asked if a Nahel bond would be possible for someone not from Roshar? We know several other planets magic is very restricted, but that doesn't mean Roshar's is. jW People not from Roshar can attract spren, and becoming a Surgebinder is just an extension of that with a special type of spren, so I would certainly predict it should be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Even if not, in case of mixed heritage it will become. But I am not sure if both systems could be used simultaneously on the same Shardworld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 People not from Roshar can attract spren, and becoming a Surgebinder is just an extension of that with a special type of spren, so I would certainly predict it should be possible. It could be that a certain amount of spiritual hackery would be required to form a full bond, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Even if not, in case of mixed heritage it will become. But I am not sure if both systems could be used simultaneously on the same Shardworld. Assuming Hoid is lightweaving his hair color constantly with his weird Yolish magic then doubling on systems is probably possible. Though whether surgebinding fails completely outside of Greater Roshar is a problem. Parts of a nahel bond's properties apparently come entirely from local realmatics, IIRC, something that will even happen to a seon and its bonded master if in range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Assuming Hoid is lightweaving his hair color constantly with his weird Yolish magic then doubling on systems is probably possible. Well Hoid could simply dyes his hairs, there is no need of magic. Though whether surgebinding fails completely outside of Greater Roshar is a problem. Parts of a nahel bond's properties apparently come entirely from local realmatics, IIRC, something that will even happen to a seon and its bonded master if in range. This is quite a point. Something must change outside of Roshar. For me a surgebinder lost it's ability to access the local investiture (Stormlight) also if he carry on Himself some Infused Spheres. But this is of course a my idea and there isn't any kind of proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Though whether surgebinding fails completely outside of Greater Roshar is a problem. Parts of a nahel bond's properties apparently come entirely from local realmatics, IIRC, something that will even happen to a seon and its bonded master if in range. Surgebinding will work off-world. Which makes me think that we've massively over-extrapolated from the Seon-Nahel bond WoB. (I even brought it up in that WoB.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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