Pressure Surge = Force push

[Argent]

Oh, I'll make sure to remind you of this when we find out that there is more to it. Don't you go forgetting just yet

[Aether]

We do not really have that much to go on yet, that's for sure, but I love the possibilities this might hint at. I cringe at at the ramifications of the release of tWoR for all our crazy theories. Other than that, Looter has a good point:
 

With Sanderson one rule seems to be there are always more powers or tweaking of current rules. I just doubt that someone that is not on the path to being a radiant or herald know everything about a subset of powers in the first book of a ten book series. It would leave a lot flat.

 

I would also like to add that Brandon has stated that the users of the various magic systems in the cosmere rarely understand the full nature of what's going on (or something to that effect). So even the Windrunners of the Knights Radiant really only had the Three Lashings, there might still be more to discover.

[Smidge]

I support this theory - see: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2108-can-windrunners-make-shockwaves/

 

If nothing else, without any extra usage the pressure surge is very underpowered (practically useless for windrunners), and underutilized. There's a lot of cool usages you could get out of a 'pressure' power, it would be a shame and a complete waste of potential if there's nothing more to it.

 

In any case, they may not be described to us so far because all we've heard of so far is the lashings, and the other powers are not described as 'lashings' because they're not actually 'lashing' anything.

[Gloom]

I support this theory - see: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2108-can-windrunners-make-shockwaves/

 

If nothing else, without any extra usage the pressure surge is very underpowered (practically useless for windrunners), and underutilized. There's a lot of cool usages you could get out of a 'pressure' power, it would be a shame and a complete waste of potential if there's nothing more to it.

 

In any case, they may not be described to us so far because all we've heard of so far is the lashings, and the other powers are not described as 'lashings' because they're not actually 'lashing' anything.

 

No worries, Wind Runners can fly. That isn't a function of the three lashings, so were certain to see Kaladin learn a few more tricks, then learn how to use those tricks in sequence to make mind blowing action scenes.

[Aether]

No worries, Wind Runners can fly. That isn't a function of the three lashings, so were certain to see Kaladin learn a few more tricks, then learn how to use those tricks in sequence to make mind blowing action scenes.

What do you mean "it's not a function of the Three Lashings"? Just Basic Lash yourself in whatever direction you want to go, be that up, down or towards the horizon (or any combination of those). It seems evident that it is the Gravity Surge that let's the Windrunners (and presumably the Skybreakers) fly.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Aether

[marianmi]

Like Aether said.

[Fistsofrage]

What do you mean "it's not a function of the Three Lashings"? Just Basic Lash yourself in whatever direction you want to go, be that up, down or towards the horizon (or any combination of those. It seems evident that it is the Gravity Surge that let's the Windrunners (and presumably the Skybreakers) fly.

It does seem that way, and you're most likely right, but the way Kaladin rode the storm in his dream/out-of-body experience makes it seem like he was either born for this, or a "true" lashing allows one to even ride storms. True lashing just means a total mastery of the 3 that allows one to do such things. Perhaps its the technique that gives windrunners their name. Being able to do it proves mastery perhaps...

[Fistsofrage]

What do you mean "it's not a function of the Three Lashings"? Just Basic Lash yourself in whatever direction you want to go, be that up, down or towards the horizon (or any combination of those. It seems evident that it is the Gravity Surge that let's the Windrunners (and presumably the Skybreakers) fly.

It does seem that way, and you're most likely right, but the way Kaladin rode the storm in his dream/out-of-body experience makes it seem like he was either born for this, or a "true" lashing allows one to even ride storms. True lashing just means a total mastery of the 3 that allows one to do such things. Perhaps its the technique that gives windrunners their name. Maybe being able to do it proves mastery...

[Gloom]

What do you mean "it's not a function of the Three Lashings"? Just Basic Lash yourself in whatever direction you want to go, be that up, down or towards the horizon (or any combination of those. It seems evident that it is the Gravity Surge that let's the Windrunners (and presumably the Skybreakers) fly.

 

I mean that we have two separate people who both have access to the same power, one of which was taught, and one of which has a teacher, and neither one can fly using basic lashings. So either Szeth is completely incompetent, despite having over a year knowing what it was he was doing along with knowledge what of the power set a Wind Runner was, and failed to figure out how to use his lashings as method of flight, or he lacks the ability as things currently stand.

[Fistsofrage]

I mean that we have two separate people who both have access to the same power, one of which was taught, and one of which has a teacher, and neither one can fly using basic lashings. So either Szeth is completely incompetent, despite having over a year knowing what it was he was doing along with knowledge what of the power set a Wind Runner was, and failed to figure out how to use his lashings as method of flight, or he lacks the ability as things currently stand.

I don't know that Szeth hasn't learned how to fly/travel via lashings. He has gone to so many countries, and killed so many influential people in such a short period of time that it wouldn't be wrong to assume that he can use his abilities in that fashion. When Kaladin saw him in his dream, Szeth was in such a far off place I figured he could fly.

However, I don't know if Szeth knows how to ride the highstorm. I think lashing a point and lashing the storm are two different things and require a different level of skill but maybe that's just me.

[Gloom]

Szeth can't fly. For one, he'd need an extraordinary number of gems since he can't hold stormlight for more than a few minutes. That's assuming that he even has the capacity to fly. I believe that if Szeth could fly, it might be something worth mentioning in TWoKs. Szeth had plenty of time to travel from location to location conventionally. A determined man on a horse can cover a lot of ground over the course of months of travel. Stormlight can help him recover from fatigue and horses can be exchanged regularly.

[Fistsofrage]

Szeth can't fly. For one, he'd need an extraordinary number of gems since he can't hold stormlight for more than a few minutes. That's assuming that he even has the capacity to fly. I believe that if Szeth could fly, it might be something worth mentioning in TWoKs. Szeth had plenty of time to travel from location to location conventionally. A determined man on a horse can cover a lot of ground over the course of months of travel. Stormlight can help him recover from fatigue and horses can be exchanged regularly.

You make some good points, but since I don't know how long it takes to lash across the sky (or zoom) Im not sure I would rule it out just yet. I would have to go back and check but I think (basic lashing?) costs the least amount of stormlight. I guess we'll just have to wait and see but I think it explains how Szeth is able to travel so quickly.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Gloom]

The fastest he should be able to travel comfortably is about a hundred miles per hour. Faster than that without a windscreen, and he'd be pretty miserable. So lets just say the terminal velocity of a human, which is 117-125mph in random posture. If the human uses the bullet shaped position, (sometimes used by experienced sky divers or seen in movies), their terminal velocity can reach speeds up to 210mph. A Knight Radiant in Shardplate may be able to exceed these speeds due to the protection the armor provides, but without that protection, you're pretty much topping out at about as fast as your average commercial Helicopter. So if Szeth could maintain flight for an hour, he may be able to get around a hundred miles after which he would need a Highstorm to recharge his gems.

[Moogle]

I think Szeth could fly (it's not like getting a sack full of spheres would be hard, given his benefactor), but likely doesn't because of how bloody unstealthy it is. It's not hard to notice a glowing streak in the sky.

 

Here, however, is some very rough math:

 

I don't know how long a Lashing can hold. Szeth used a little one to stick a guard to the ceiling, and it lasted maybe 20-30 seconds? Lashings accelerate you, which means you get faster and faster the longer you use it, making longer travel more efficient. (Or, well, it would mean that, if not for air resistance. However, I see no reason why Szeth couldn't go up into thinner atmosphere, given that Stormlight means he doesn't need to breathe and it hardens his body.)

 

Terminal velocity for a regular skydiver here on Earth is about 200 km/h, though if you pull in your arms/wear more aerodynamic clothing, things change. (This assumes 1g of force.) Roshar has about 70% of Earth's gravity, but this is countered by the fact that the atmosphere will likely be thinner. Regardless, Szeth is not limited to this terminal velocity, but the faster he goes, the more it's going to hurt his body, so I think it's a decent limit. You can reach 99% of terminal velocity in 10 seconds or so, so we can just assume Szeth can constantly move at 200 km/h and this uses up one sphere per 30 seconds. This gives us a nice number: 120 spheres per 200 km traveled. For reference, Russia is about 600 km long. A regular backpack would hold somewhere around 200 spheres assuming they're as small as I imagine them.

 

With this in mind, Szeth isn't likely to be able to fly across Roshar on one backpack worth of spheres (I don't think we know how long Roshar is, but it's likely larger than Russia, given the sheer amount of various kingdoms). However, if you consider that spheres are like 90% glass and only 10% crappy gemstone... well, if Taravangian has any gemhearts lying around, or nicer stones like Jasnah's, I think Szeth could manage to fly between a city every highstorm without issue and have enough gems left over to assassinate.

 

Kaladin is about 10x more efficient than Szeth (even more after he spoke the Second Ideal), as judged by the fact that he could hold his breath 15-30 minutes while Szeth can do it for a few minutes at most. Even if Szeth can't do it, Kaladin will be able to do it.

 

Now, if you let Szeth go up into the upper atmosphere...

Edited November 3, 2013 by Moogle

[Fistsofrage]

I'm seeing a lot of calculations lol, but you guys seem to forget that Szeth can control the way gravity acts on his body. He can make himself light. And if riding the highstorm is possible (probably the fastest method of travel), then I think lashing from point in the sky really fast is possible too. And I don't tend to compare fantasy books with reality too much since everything tends to fall apart and it ruins the experience.

Forgive me if my reply didn't properly address your posts, I'm in the middle of something atm

[Gloom]

Szeth had no idea who his benefactor was. He found that out at the end of TWoKs.

 

Szeth doesn't ask his benefactors for things.

 

I believe Brandon would have shown his handler giving Szeth a gemheart if this was the case.

 

Szeth doesn't seem to carry vary many gemstones on his person, and generally uses available stormlight to accomplish his goals.

 

I believe that Szeth would consider carrying any gemstones profane, he may carry a few spheres with him, but I honestly can't see him carrying more than he considers absolutely necessary.

 

If Szeth uses Stormlight to travel, then he should be on the Shattered Plains weeks ahead of Shallan and Jasnah.

 

@FistsofRage — Brandon compares his magic systems to physics all the time. He bases a lot of his limitations on those imposed by physics. He bends those rules as necessary, but conforms to them more often than not.

[Fistsofrage]

@Gloom: It's just a general rule of mine since I read a lot of fantasy. I'm sure Brandon does his best, but there will always be discrepancies. If he spent too much time making sure all the physics added up, he'd never get his books out as fast as he does.

[Aether]

I think Szeth could fly (it's not like getting a sack full of spheres would be hard, given his benefactor), but likely doesn't because of how bloody unstealthy it is. It's not hard to notice a glowing streak in the sky.

 

Here, however, is some very rough math:

 

I don't know how long a Lashing can hold. Szeth used a little one to stick a guard to the ceiling, and it lasted maybe 20-30 seconds? Lashings accelerate you, which means you get faster and faster the longer you use it, making longer travel more efficient. (Or, well, it would mean that, if not for air resistance. However, I see no reason why Szeth couldn't go up into thinner atmosphere, given that Stormlight means he doesn't need to breathe and it hardens his body.)

 

Terminal velocity for a regular skydiver here on Earth is about 200 km/h, though if you pull in your arms/wear more aerodynamic clothing, things change. (This assumes 1g of force.) Roshar has about 70% of Earth's gravity, but this is countered by the fact that the atmosphere will likely be thinner. Regardless, Szeth is not limited to this terminal velocity, but the faster he goes, the more it's going to hurt his body, so I think it's a decent limit. You can reach 99% of terminal velocity in 10 seconds or so, so we can just assume Szeth can constantly move at 200 km/h and this uses up one sphere per 30 seconds. This gives us a nice number: 120 spheres per 200 km traveled. For reference, Russia is about 600 km long. A regular backpack would hold somewhere around 200 spheres assuming they're as small as I imagine them.

 

With this in mind, Szeth isn't likely to be able to fly across Roshar on one backpack worth of spheres (I don't think we know how long Roshar is, but it's likely larger than Russia, given the sheer amount of various kingdoms). However, if you consider that spheres are like 90% glass and only 10% crappy gemstone... well, if Taravangian has any gemhearts lying around, or nicer stones like Jasnah's, I think Szeth could manage to fly between a city every highstorm without issue and have enough gems left over to assassinate.

 

Kaladin is about 10x more efficient than Szeth (even more after he spoke the Second Ideal), as judged by the fact that he could hold his breath 15-30 minutes while Szeth can do it for a few minutes at most. Even if Szeth can't do it, Kaladin will be able to do it.

 

Now, if you let Szeth go up into the upper atmosphere...

Well reasoned argument. However, I'd just like to point out that the atmosphere is in fact thicker (more oxygen-dense) on Roshar than on Earth. Which is partly why, in the WoB, that crustaceans are allowed to grow so big (that and gemhearts; and spren!). Doesn't really affect your theory, just wanted to point that out.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Fifth]

I find the Three lashings to be very Un-cannon and will continue to consider it a work in progress on the limits of a KR's powers until I read otherwise for no less then a PoV from Jezrien stating such (even other Radiant's could ill informed of limitations).

 

I have Read within the shard forums that we have the WoB that each surge (sometimes order) has three lashings attributed to it,

 

I find this to be almost impossible in implement too all the surges or orders no matter how you try to work it.

How could you have three different "lashings" or ways to use transformation, transport, Division ...ect ect... other powers have obvious "reverse" effects like a Positive & negative application ..friction,air pressure and surface tension....though I will admit It could be that a KR can only move these forces in one direction ...say a decrease only in friction or a raising of air pressure only ... Imagine the destruction you could do creating areas of total vacuum on a battle field O,o 

 

I can only guess that every order will be unique and that their is all kinds of imaginative ways a radiant could use their surges both on a individual basis and in a synergy.

 

Edit: I would much like a link to where I can see this quote form Brandon about all surges or orders having three lashings each.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Fifth

[Aether]

Edit: I would much like a link to where I can see this quote form Brandon about all surges or orders having three lashings each.

I've asked for it myself somewhere, but so far, no one has been able to produce it.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Cold Fusion]

I'm sure that there has to be more to the radiants powers, whether it is flying or what, but it is way too early for us to know all that kaladin will be able to do.  There are still nine books left, and kaladin has to get cooler somehow.

[Beautor]

I think Szeth could fly (it's not like getting a sack full of spheres would be hard, given his benefactor), but likely doesn't because of how bloody unstealthy it is. It's not hard to notice a glowing streak in the sky.

 

Here, however, is some very rough math:

 

I don't know how long a Lashing can hold. Szeth used a little one to stick a guard to the ceiling, and it lasted maybe 20-30 seconds? Lashings accelerate you, which means you get faster and faster the longer you use it, making longer travel more efficient. (Or, well, it would mean that, if not for air resistance. However, I see no reason why Szeth couldn't go up into thinner atmosphere, given that Stormlight means he doesn't need to breathe and it hardens his body.)

 

Terminal velocity for a regular skydiver here on Earth is about 200 km/h, though if you pull in your arms/wear more aerodynamic clothing, things change. (This assumes 1g of force.) Roshar has about 70% of Earth's gravity, but this is countered by the fact that the atmosphere will likely be thinner. Regardless, Szeth is not limited to this terminal velocity, but the faster he goes, the more it's going to hurt his body, so I think it's a decent limit. You can reach 99% of terminal velocity in 10 seconds or so, so we can just assume Szeth can constantly move at 200 km/h and this uses up one sphere per 30 seconds. This gives us a nice number: 120 spheres per 200 km traveled. For reference, Russia is about 600 km long. A regular backpack would hold somewhere around 200 spheres assuming they're as small as I imagine them.

 

With this in mind, Szeth isn't likely to be able to fly across Roshar on one backpack worth of spheres (I don't think we know how long Roshar is, but it's likely larger than Russia, given the sheer amount of various kingdoms). However, if you consider that spheres are like 90% glass and only 10% crappy gemstone... well, if Taravangian has any gemhearts lying around, or nicer stones like Jasnah's, I think Szeth could manage to fly between a city every highstorm without issue and have enough gems left over to assassinate.

 

Kaladin is about 10x more efficient than Szeth (even more after he spoke the Second Ideal), as judged by the fact that he could hold his breath 15-30 minutes while Szeth can do it for a few minutes at most. Even if Szeth can't do it, Kaladin will be able to do it.

 

Now, if you let Szeth go up into the upper atmosphere...

 

Not to knock your geography here, but Russia is way wider than 600km's. I suspect that the 600km you indicated is just a typo. Russia is actually around 10,000 km wide, or around 6,200 miles wide.

 

While I don't disagree that a form of flight is theoretically possible using the lashings that Szeth has demonstrated, I personally don't think that it is the method employed by the Windrunners. I don't have any specific evidence or quotes to support my belief at this time.

 

I do have a question though. I thought the lashing's demonstrated by Szeth had to lash two things together. IE, the stone he cut from the floor to the roof above. Am I wrong in this, and can someone point me in the direction of a quote saying that the lashings are simply directional (ie. up, down, sideways, etc) rather than between two objects or bodies?

[Scott]

I do have a question though. I thought the lashing's demonstrated by Szeth had to lash two things together. IE, the stone he cut from the floor to the roof above. Am I wrong in this, and can someone point me in the direction of a quote saying that the lashings are simply directional (ie. up, down, sideways, etc) rather than between two objects or bodies?

 

Here's the quote from Szeth's prelude:

 

 

This was a Basic Lashing, first of his three kinds of Lashings. It gave him the ability to manipulate whatever force, spren, or god it was that held men to the ground. With this Lashing, he could bind people or objects to different surfaces or in different directions.

[Moogle]

Not to knock your geography here, but Russia is way wider than 600km's. I suspect that the 600km you indicated is just a typo. Russia is actually around 10,000 km wide, or around 6,200 miles wide.

 

600 km was a mistake on my part. It definitely makes things much harder on Szeth, though Kaladin can still manage the distances easily. It would be helpful if we knew how large Roshar is. Someone should pin Brandon down on that.

 

While I don't disagree that a form of flight is theoretically possible using the lashings that Szeth has demonstrated, I personally don't think that it is the method employed by the Windrunners. I don't have any specific evidence or quotes to support my belief at this time.

 

I have to disagree with this. It seems redundant, when Lashings are all you need. We already know the Radiants could use them to fly:

 

 

The blue knight’s armor began to glow faintly, then he launched into the air, as if falling straight up. Dalinar stumbled back, shocked, watching the glowing blue figure rise, then arc downward toward the village.

 

They don't really need anything else.

[Beautor]

I'm re-reading the TWoK right now, and I just came across a Szeth section that answers my question exactly:

 

 

 

He reached down with his free hand and infused the stone circle with Light, Lashing it toward the northwest section of the sky. Lashing something to a distant point like that was possible, but imprecise. It was like trying to shoot an arrow a great distance.

TWoK I-6 A Work of Art.

 

So it appears that it is lashing between two objects, but the object could be something like a distant star or planet. The person performing the lashing does not necessarily need to see or even be aware of what the end target of the lashing is; they just need to know the desired direction. I withdraw my previous reservations about flight being something different from the Lashings shown by Szeth and I agree that it is quite probable that the flight shown by the KR is using the same lashings demonstrated by Szeth.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Beautor