LDS Influences on Themes (Theology Time)

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Or for the severely dyslexic. Ya think it reads LSD, then read it as DSL. For all of those influences fast internet has had on Brandon Sanderson's writing.

[Guest Alaxel]

Honestly, I'm glad that someone finally made a religion based thread. Throughout my wanderings of the internets, I haven't found a single other likely forum where religion might be discussed without it inevitably degrading into a cesspool of hatred, insults, and trolling. That's extremely impressive on Brandon Sanderson's part; to write books that are so enjoyable that the fans of the books can come together on this forum and have a civil discussion about religion, gods, and morality without lashing out at each other because we all have this one unifying passion in common. That is a sublime mark of his genius.

Unless, of course, the staff are working overtime to delete posts...but I suspect they don't have to censor us much.

Now, for my two cents.

Knowing that Brandon Sanderson is an LDS, I am EXTREMELY impressed with Jasnah Kholin. As an atheist myself, I can relate to Jasnah. I mean, actually relate to things she's said and done in the book, not just relate to the character herself. Jasnah, like myself, isn't trying to convert anyone to atheism. That isn't what atheism is about. I feel like that's a common misconception that many believers have, is that atheists are obsessed with proving that god doesn't exist every chance we get. That simply isn't the case. And to see Jasnah, an atheist character written by a believer, reflect that...well, it leaves me with a deep respect for Brandon. The man clearly loves what he writes and he pours a whole lot of effort in to understanding everything he writes about.

If Jasnah parallels myself even further, we will find that it isn't what people believe that concerns her but rather why people believe what they do. You can both believe and disbelieve for the wrong reasons, I think. I can't speak on behalf of the believers, but I know that people who consider themselves atheists merely because it seems trendy to them really bothers me. And it's not what they believe, it's because, in this particular instance, they've made an extremely important decision flippantly.

Journey before destination, you might say.

Okay, so...what I'm getting it is that Brandon Sanderson did an absolutely fantastic job on creating an atheist character who feels authentic to an actual atheist. If I were to write a story and have a character with faith, I know I would make a mess of it and it wouldn't be convincing to anyone.

Also, this next tidbit might be a little irrelevant to this thread but I believe that it's connected in spirit to this thread.

Leadership.

Make no mistake, you can have authority without leadership. Sadeas is a good example of this. His men follow him because he signs their paychecks, so to speak. While they may be proud to be a part of one of the most powerful Alethi armies, if calamity struck Sadeas and his House and the spheres stopped flowing...the majority of those soldiers would likely desert and find employment with other warcamps.

Dalinar Kholin, however. He's like the Althei Chesty Puller. I have no doubt that if Dalinar called every man in his army into formation and addressed them all explaining that he'd been politically outmaneuvered by another Highprince and, as a result, would no longer be able to pay more than 1/10th of their wages, then offered every man who wanted to enlist in another warcamp a 'severance package' from funds out of his personal fortune, every last man would would stay.

As far as I know, Brandon Sanderson has no military experience. I, however, do. Four years Marine Corps Infantry with two combat deployments. One to Iraq, the other to Afghanistan. I mention this only because I want you to know that I have seen good leadership and I have seen bad leadership. I've seen selfish leaders and incompetent leaders. I've seen Major's risk their lives to save Lance Corporals, and I've known Staff Sergeants who would never, ever risk leaving the wire. Brandon Sanderson has captured all of these aspects of authority and leadership so well, that, after reading how he had Kaladin handle the confusion after the near slaughter of Dalinar's army at the Tower, I paused my reading to look up Brandon's biography to see what branch he served in and what his MOS was.

I guess this whole thing just turned in to a weird kind of love letter to the Cosmere that Brandon has created for us, and I wanted to share what I find admirable about the way he depicted two topics outside his direct experience.

TL;DR Summary: Brandon is great, his Cosmere is great, his fans are great, this forum is great.

[lizbusby she/her]

If Jasnah parallels myself even further, we will find that it isn't what people believe that concerns her but rather why people believe what they do. You can both believe and disbelieve for the wrong reasons, I think. I can't speak on behalf of the believers, but I know that people who consider themselves atheists merely because it seems trendy to them really bothers me. And it's not what they believe, it's because, in this particular instance, they've made an extremely important decision flippantly.

This is definitely true of many religious believers as well. There are those who have thought and made the choice for themselves, and those who stick around because they like the community and don't want to make waves. Fortunately, it's not our job to judge between the two but to judge our own reasons for believing and continually question and strengthen them.

In fact, this is true in all areas of life, not just religion. Are we just doing what everyone else is doing or have we thought it through? An important point in life.

TL;DR Summary: Brandon is great, his Cosmere is great, his fans are great, this forum is great.

Here, here!

[Chaos he/him]

Honestly, I'm glad that someone finally made a religion based thread. Throughout my wanderings of the internets, I haven't found a single other likely forum where religion might be discussed without it inevitably degrading into a cesspool of hatred, insults, and trolling. That's extremely impressive on Brandon Sanderson's part; to write books that are so enjoyable that the fans of the books can come together on this forum and have a civil discussion about religion, gods, and morality without lashing out at each other because we all have this one unifying passion in common. That is a sublime mark of his genius.

Unless, of course, the staff are working overtime to delete posts...but I suspect they don't have to censor us much.

TL;DR Summary: Brandon is great, his Cosmere is great, his fans are great, this forum is great.

Nope, the discussion has been very well-behaved, and I really enjoy reading it. Thanks to all Brandon fans who are kind, reasonable, and like intelligent discussion, like is happening here You all make me very happy that I put work into 17th Shard. Thanks for all being awesome.

[Khmauv he/him]

Okay. I think that I'll actually chime in on topic this time.

 

I really liked the Hrathen arc in Elantris for several reasons.

 

First of all, I have been through a similar crisis of faith where I had to really stop and evaluate what I actually believed, even why I believed. I suppose I resonated with him a little even though he was a major antagonist.

 

Second, I found that while I detested the manner in which Wyrn was directing the Derethi I could see merit in the belief system itself. If nothing else I respected Hrathen for his belief even if I couldn't believe the same.

 

Last, I love that it showed that each religion had a broad range of devotion within each religion, some devout, others apathetic, and still others who were zealous beyond regular practice. Demonstrating, to me, the importance of not lumping groups together and categorizing them solely  by the beliefs and actions of a few extremists. 

[junior]

Call me dyslexic, but whenever I see the title of this post I read "LSD influences on Themes", especially if Gamma Fiend's trippy picture is next to it.

 

Or to quote Kirk in Star Trek IV -

 

Kirk:  He had to much LDS back in the '60s.

 

 

 

On a more serious note, interesting read.  And the influence tends to be subtle.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Chaos

[LightReader she/her]

 Dalinar's journey through the Way of Kings reminds me a lot of Moses and of the way Mormons understand the purpose of the Law of Moses.   Dalinar at first wants people to adopt the codes on their own and understand the spirit of them, and lead by example instead of force, however he realizes that the people are too steeped in their ways and need to be educated as though they were children, because they need a foundation to build on.  Similarly, after the Israelites were freed from slavery in Egypt, Moses took that same kind of approach at first and received the 10 commandments. When he came down from the mountain and saw how wicked the people were though, he realized he would need a much stricter law, and so the Law of Moses came about.  In LDS theology we often refer to the Law of Moses as a preparatory law so people would have a foundation to build on when Christ came and delivered the law of the gospel.  I don't really know how other Chrisitan religions regard this though, so it might be a more general Christian influence than a specifically Mormon one. 

 

I also see a potential LDS influence in the concept of doing what's right because its right even if its unpopular or leads to ridicule, as Dalinar exemplifies.  As a member of the LDS church growing up in an area with very few other members, I have occasionally experienced similar feelings of ostracism as Dalinar does from the other light-eyes because holding to my beliefs meant not doing the popular thing. 

 

Again, I realize that these are not really Mormon-only ideas or issues, but if he grew up LDS like I did, then it is probably where Brandon had his first exposure to them.  I recognize that I probably only see these as LDS themes because that's the culture I was raised in and so I see the world through that lens. I also realize I'm a bit late to this thread, but since no one else had mentioned these, I thought I'd add my two cents.    

Edited November 18, 2013 by LightReader

[Shardlet he/him]

Good catch on the higher law-lesser law.

[Khmauv he/him]

As christian themes go I think there could be a parallel between shard plate and the Armor of god as found in Ephesians. First thing that struck me was the "sword of the Spirit". 

 

Then I thought of spiritual armor and weapons designed to protect/fight against a spiritual enemy. That is totally shard plate and shard blades. 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Khmauv

[Demandred]

Hey all, I been lurking here for a while but never posted. I want to start by seconding what has already been said.

You are all awesome! The Cosmere is incredible, and these forums are amazing!

And all of you are my heroes for approaching a subject which i see get ripped apart and abused all over the internet, in a calm and respectful manner. Thank you! 

Now I am LDS, and have been watching this thread for a while now. There are a ton of.... idk if the right word is influences, or references, or something else, in the Cosmere books to LDS beliefs. I love that Brandon includes religion in his books, and that those religions seem to matter, at least to the characters in the books! 

I dont have any new observations to make really, except to add this: In the Cosmere there seems to be some underlying governing principles or laws upon which everything else is based. This is massively important, and I am stupid excited to see what we might learn about these laws of the Cosmere in the future!

 

My understanding of LDS doctrine is that God is a being with a perfect understanding and knowledge of the laws of the universe, and is able to use his knowledge to make things happen. But he is still bound by those laws. In the Book of Mormon, Alma chapter 42 is basically devoted to a discussion about 2 of the underlying laws; Mercy and Justice. I wont go into a big preaching moment, (because it is irrelevant to the point of this thread, and because the LAST thing i want to do is go preaching to all you wonderful people) but in verse 25 it says:

25 What, do ye suppose that ^amercy can rob ^bjustice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

 

To me, that means that even God has rules and laws that he has to follow, some underlying principles that governs what can and cannot be done.

Edit: Just like the Cosmere has some basic Laws that we dont yet know

Edited December 3, 2013 by Demandred

[PrncRny he/him]

So. I feel like I'm arriving to the party late here (both to this thread and to 17thShard in general, seeing as how I signed up hours before the Idaho Falls signing on Saturday. lol) but I thought I'd say hi:

 

This has been a VERY interesting thread to read. I want to add my voice to thos who have already stated how nice it is to have a forum where things can be talked about openly without the negativity that seems to inevitably creep into other boards.

 

I have some thougths on the subject myself if this conversation continues, but I'll refrain from posting them until they're coherent enough to make sense. Right now, they're just a tumble of reactions and thoughts to everything I've read here that, if I tried to type them all, would likely come out wrong and sound like Fiddlygrak (*snicker*) to everyone else. lol

Edited December 9, 2013 by PrncRny

[Mysty she/her]

I just finished rereading WoK and I noticed Dalinar totally pulled off Moses and the Ten Commandments. Remember Moses went up the mountain to commune with the Lord for 40 days. When Moses came down, excited to share the gospel he'd recieved, all the Israelites were worshiping the golden calf idol they made. Moses got mad, broke the tablets, caused a casim to appear and swallow the idol, and put the fear of God back in them. Then Moses went back up the mountain and got the child-sized version of God's commandments to give the israelites until they could handle the full deal (not restored until Jesus came).

 

So if you consider the Codes and principles in "that storming book" to be analogus to Moses's Tablets, Dalinar is trying to restore them to the Alethi. but they don't listen and are instead worshiping their gemhearts and otherwise acting like children. so eventually Dalinar decides he needs to give them a smackdown by "take[ing] away their games" and treating them like the children they are. Dalinar is going to force them to follow codes so that eventually they can choose to follow the codes.

 

I wouldn't be surpries if in WoR the other highprinces take on more similarities to rather whiny Israelites while they wandered the wilderness. especially when they whined about how sick they were of eating manna, wanting some meat, completely forgetting that the manna was a daily miracle from God and without it they would die. maybe something like "we're sick of all this soulcast grain, get us some chicken!".

[Mailliw73 he/him]

In the Rithmatist, the inception ceremony takes place at eight, like baptism does. Melody also says that the experience there is holy and not to be talked about. That whole conversation made me think of baptism and the temple.

[EC11 he/him]

Personally I really sympathized and admired the journey through disbelief that Sazed faced, and how he weighed and examined all the religions methodically. He realized that they all had holes, and even the Terris religion he had long looked for wasn't perfect, but then he saw that the Terris religion was true in the sense that all the prophecies were passed down by a higher power for a reason.

 

Then when he became god (I guess for a lack of a better term) he forged a new shard (which is awesome in so many ways) and adapted his personality to fit it. His position of choice is one which is also fascinating, and the fact that many of his personality quirks shine through is pretty hilarious 

 

Also on a more fuzzy angle it appears that Kelsier is still hanging around somehow and affecting the corporeal world in some way. I'd be interested to know how that is working out.

 

On a Jasnah related note she reminds me of the many positive experiences I have had with atheists in my life and I was quite happy to see him pull of her personality so well. I personally think that when she discovers the existence of the Almighty she will concede that he did create mankind, but won't quite he is what matches the Vorin religions conception of god (seeing how he is dead and all).

[king of nowhere]

I don't feel an expert enough of the topic to join this conversation (except to congratulate brandon for exposing all viewpoints with fairness and not adopting a biased view, like many in his position, mostly unconsciously, would do)

 

But I just have to drop by to say that every single time I open this forum and my eyes take a quick glance at the page, I always misread LDS as LSD and have a couple seconds of "what the ...?" moment before reading it right.

 

Note: since this is the internet, it's likely that someone will read this as an attempt to link religion with drugs. it is not. it is just a reading mistake.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Yeah if this thread was 'LSD influences on themes' it'd be more likely talking about Stephen King and his books. Or coke and cough syrup....

Dude had a lot of drug problems.

[Shardlet he/him]

But I just have to drop by to say that every single time I open this forum and my eyes take a quick glance at the page, I always misread LDS as LSD and have a couple seconds of "what the ...?" moment before reading it right.

 

You and Capt. Kirk both.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

As Kurk has said before... seeing my avatar next to the thread title when I'm last poster does NOT help with reading it correctly. XD

[Haradion Drogon]

I would just to add that this has been a pleasure to read. So often I have seen other sites decend into madness within two posts.

I will admit that (living in Britain) I was rather unfamiliar with LDS before reading. Personally, I am a Catholic (With an Atheist Father), and I sympathised with Hathren and his grappling with the concept of Organised religion, and with 

On one hand - if you have the "Truth" you want to give it to people. You want them to understand and experience this wonderful thing you have. And it is your duty to do so - a parent wouldn't ignore their child saying "If It is right for them not to be Racist, it will come to them". People want to share their positive experience.

But at the same time, I have never wanted to force my beliefs on anyone. Its a delicate balancing act, and something that resonates with Hathren.

 

Anyway, that's just my perspective.

 

 

 

 

25 What, do ye suppose that ^amercy can rob ^bjustice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

 

To me, that means that even God has rules and laws that he has to follow, some underlying principles that governs what can and cannot be done.

 

That ^ Reminds me of another Christian Author, CS Lewis. In "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" Lucy uses a spell to make invisible things visible, and in doing so, reveals Aslan - who is a Christ-like figure. In fact, he is as Lewis put it " he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?'" 

 

When Lucy is surprised that her magic worked on Aslan, supposedly above her attempts, he responds:

"Why would it not? Did you think I would not obey my own Rules?"

[Todesengel he/him]

 

That ^ Reminds me of another Christian Author, CS Lewis. In "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" Lucy uses a spell to make invisible things visible, and in doing so, reveals Aslan - who is a Christ-like figure. In fact, he is as Lewis put it " he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?'" 

 

When Lucy is surprised that her magic worked on Aslan, supposedly above her attempts, he responds:

"Why would it not? Did you think I would not obey my own Rules?"

 

Wow, I really need to read the Chronicles of Narnia. CS Lewis never ceases to impress me. This quote you give from "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" actually reminds me of something that happens in The Book of Mormon. There is a man who is known as the brother of Jared. His faith was so strong that Christ appeared to him. The connection, however, is in what manner Christ was revealed to this man. Here is a quote from Ether 3:20 - "Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God [which came by the brother of Jared's faith], he [Christ] could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him." This suggests that Christ was "required" to follow "his own Rules" (or the laws of the Universe, as was mentioned earlier) and appear unto this man because of his exceeding faith. I just thought I'd like to share that connection.

 

Onto Brandon's works. Every time I read through one of his books, I find at least a few connections with LDS beliefs. I have no idea if he intentionally places all of the connections I find in his books, but I'm sure a few of them are intentional. I'm pretty sure most of the connections already mentioned here were intentional.

 

Right now I'm a little curious about the connection between the physical realm and the spiritual realm and the connections with LDS beliefs. Part of why it is interesting is that there isn't too much doctrine on the spiritual dimension in the LDS religion. Albeit, there is more than most religions, but still not much. Joseph Smith mentioned that Spirit is matter, it is just more refined than "normal" matter. It was mentioned by Brigham Young that the spiritual dimension (Also known as the Spirit World, or paradise and prison. This can kind of be equated with most other Christian beliefs of Heaven and Hell.) was here on this earth, not in some other area of the universe. That's about it.

 

There are, however, a lot of non-doctrinal beliefs on the spiritual dimension. One such belief, held by W. Cleon Skousen, was that each physical atom, or particle (perhaps even quark... I don't quite remember exactly), is paired with a "spiritual" atom. That "spiritual" atom is what gives the physical atom life. Motion, creation, destruction, thought, virtually everything happens because of that "spiritual" atom. Well, here is a quote from the "Emperor's Soul: Devotion's Body" thread in the "Elantris and Emperor's Soul" forum.

 

This doesn't necessarily mean it can't be Devotion's body, though- Sanderson has said that Atium is made up of atoms like ordinary metal is, but wrapped up in spiritual stuff that makes it special. I suppose this makes it possible that Atium, were it to be brought to our world, would be recognized as an ordinary elemental metal from the periodic table. In the same way, Soulstone might still be ordinary Soapstone, but with spiritual stuff in it.

 

It seems that Brandon may have a similar belief to Brother Skousen. He may have even heard that talk given by Brother Skousen and thought it would be cool to include part of that in his cosmere magic system. Thoughts?

[Demandred]

Very interesting observations Todesengel! I actually had thought about posting about the idea of everything having a spirit that Skousen talks about, but I decided against it because it isn't official doctrine. But as we all know that is an idea that is present in the Cosmere

[18th Shard he/him]

Just as an aside note, Mormons do believe God has a physical body. However, being God, we should not expect that he is forced to conform to many laws of science.

[Haradion Drogon]

Huh. Really? Morons belief God has a physical body?

What was the purpose of the incarnation then?

 

EDIT: Not trying to start an argument - just surprised and curious. Sorry if that didn't convey.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Haradion Drogon

[Shardbearer he/him]

I'm not Mormon, but I grew up in Utah and learned a bit of what they believe so...

 

I think that if Mormons believe God has a physical body, it's because he was a "human" on another planet, then ascended and became God of this planet (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

As for the incarnation, I believe the Mormon church teaches that God has a lot of "spirit children" and that when we are born, one of those spirits waiting up in heaven for a body gets one, and Jesus was the first "spirit child", even though he wasn't the first to receive a physical body. Or something like that?

[bartbug he/him]

Uhh... awkward moment when not sure if insult or typo...

 

And Shardbearer, you're pretty much right. I mean, we don't know much, and that is (to the best of my knowledge) mostly implied stuff, but as I said, you're about right.

Edited January 28, 2014 by bartbug