Prime's deaths

[Meg]

 but Elhokar has never managed to make his list.

 

What list? Ahh, to make it to his (Taravangian's) list?

[Gloom he/him]

Yes, Szeth killed everyone on the list he was given of leaders that needed to die, but Elhokar obviously managed to qualify as a leader that didn't need to be assassinated. I believe this is because Taravangian believes that he can be persuaded by Sadeas to play nice with Taravangians plans, and that Elhokars death would likely result in chaos. He has no heirs, and re-consolidating the kingdom of Alethkar would be a monumental feat for which he simply doesn't have the time. Most kingdoms are fairly stable and have been ruled in a similar manner for generations (This is, of course, an assumption based on the fact that most kingdoms need stability and have generally been in existence for some time) allowing the current leadership to be replaced according to tradition. Alethkar is by most standards a new kingdom. Prior to Galivar uniting the Alethi they were ten smaller kingdoms tied together loosely through a national/racial/cultural identity. To remove the current king while without an heir in only the second generation of rulership would almost certainly result in a dissolution of his empire similar to the dissolution of the empire of the Huns after Atillas death.

[11thorderknight]

If you look at exactly what Taravangian says, I think it's pretty clear - for whatever reasons, he thinks that in order to save humanity he needs to cause massive political instability. When Dalinar was the Blackthorn, Taravangian was content to leave him alone, but once he showed signs of becoming a better leader, he's on the list. It's not a mystery at all why Elhokar wasn't on it - for one thing, the Alethi haven't forgotten Szeth's last visit, and more importantly, he's basically a useless figurehead of a king, suiting Taravangian's purposes just fine. 

[Gloom he/him]

I think his targeting Dalinar has more to do with the fact that Dalinar wants to end the war and return the Alethi war machine to Alethkar than it does with Dalinars desire to take a larger role in their leadership. This was the largest point of contention between Dalinar and Sadeas. It was one of the main reasons that the other High Princes thought he was losing his courage. But it's a frightening thought to Alethkars neighbors.

 

Should the Alethi war machine return 100,000 veteran, battle hardened, soldiers to Alethkar, how long would it be before they took advantage of the political instability of their neighbors? How long before 30,000 soldiers are at Kharbranths doorstep? Before Jah Keved is just a province of Alethkar, or a fraction of it's previous size? None of this would require the kings agreement, Elhokars hold isn't strong enough to stop his princes from fighting with their neighbors. His hold is strong enough to have kept the Alethi war machine in one place concentrated against a single enemy for over five years though.

 

I don't see Elhokar as a figurehead of a king. Naive, indecisive, yes, he is those, but he has political acumen. He is well liked by his subject princes. He has fairly good judgement, and an understanding of those best suited to advise him. Yes, I believe that Sadeas is a good choice for an adviser. He is popular with a faction of the princes, and he makes a good counterpoint to Dalinar. Once he becomes confident in his own abilities, and steps out from beneath his fathers shadow, he could become a great king, provided he lives long enough.

[Alterodent he/him]

I have the feeling that if Taravangian learns that Dalinar is a KR (assuming he is), the hit will be called off. IMO, Taravangian is trying to restore the only order that ever had a chance of fighting off a desolation without the Heralds themselves. 

[Argent he/him]

The only order?

[Gloom he/him]

I read that as meaning the Knights Radiant collectively.

[Alterodent he/him]

Yes, sorry - I should have said the only group. Most importantly though, the KR represented an united front against the desolation. With the current leadership, I think Taravangian is worried that looming disaster would cause politicing and scheming rather than humanity-saving action. 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

There are sone characters who no matter what they do, I just won't be able to like them. They will always have a negative opinion from me. For example, Severus Snape and Sadeas. Taravangian is becoming like that to me. He betrayed my trust and I can't justify slowly killing people even if he thinks it'll help.

[Argent he/him]

Funny - I like him better for what he does (assuming he does it for the right reasons). I rambled somewhere else about my irrational affection for characters who feel pressed to do the wrong thing for the right reasons and end up unwittingly doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.

[dionysus]

The fact that Taravingian wants to kill Dalinar does not speak highly of his goals to save mankind. Even before Dalinar's recent conversion, he was the most fightening war leader in the most powerful nation. He pretty much won the unification wars for his brother. Everyone is afraid of the Blackthorn. He is exactly the type of person one would want as a general in the coming Desolation.

 

Then, it also seems like Taravingian is quite current with the goings on in the Alethi war camp and the state of mind of Dalinar, which speaks even more poorly of his judgement.

 

No, Taravingian is justifying his personal ambitions for his cabal by claiming it is for the greater good. But when actual strong leaders start emerging that are capable, he wants to kill them too.

[Argent he/him]

I don't know... if surviving the Everstorm is more than just winning a battle here and there, I could see why Taravangian would try to gather as much intel as he can, even if his means are a little dubious. 

[hoser he/him]

When Szeth gets the original list, he says it is a list of names (not titles, so he couldn't know the name of the second Azish Prime after he killed the first) and comments on the presence of monarchs and highprinces, but no Azish Primes.  He completed the original list before the end of the Way of Kings. His first order of business is to go after Dalinar.  To me this indicates that Szeth survives the attempt on Dalinar and is following further orders from Mr. T when he kills the Azish Primes.   

Edited October 30, 2013 by hoser

[Argent he/him]

The fact that he, as the chapter narrator, remarks on the presence of monarchs and highprinces doesn't mean that there aren't other rulers there. It's particularly vexing that we don't know when Lift's interlude happens...

[Alterodent he/him]

I don't know if we've seen any signs of actual power-hunger on the part of Tarivangian. He is ambitious in his goal, and certainly in his process, but I have seen nothing from him regarding himself but disgust and determination. 

[Fifth]

In regards to the problem of how Szeth Is killing people all over the world in such a short time and the issue of timing Szeth is working for a wealthy benifactor now, Taravangian could be providing him with a virtually Limitless amount of stormlight he just needs to re-charge his treasury every highstorm. Hell Szeth could be returning back to Taravangian every night for all we know and departing the following night with a backpack full of charged spheres we have to remember that Szeth is effectively a windrunner and could be using a  10x lashing to fly at near supersonic speeds (only limiting factor would be heat created from wind resistance) crossing the continent as he pleases and picking up fresh supply of stormlight at designated locations......problem solved.

[Stormfather]

When Szeth gets the original list, he says it is a list of names (not titles, so he couldn't know the name of the second Azish Prime after he killed the first) and comments on the presence of monarchs and highprinces, but no Azish Primes.  He completed the original list before the end of the Way of Kings. His first order of business is to go after Dalinar.  To me this indicates that Szeth survives the attempt on Dalinar and is following further orders from Mr. T when he kills the Azish Primes.   

 

I don't agree with this one.  We are know the list has 12 names on it and Szeth gives us 8 of them, 6 High Princes (I personally think from Jah Keved since we don't hear about the Alethi princes being killed), the King and a gerontarch.  We don't know where the Selay gerontarch is from, but I think it is somewhere near Jah Keved, either near the pure lake or Thaylenah (Probably Thaylenah since Selay and Thaylen can kinda go to together).  All of Szeth's targets seem to be in a similar geographic area.  So I think that there are multiple assassins in white.  This could then strike fear if he is getting people in large distances from each other and no one will know if they are next.  The Primes are in Azir so it just doesn't fit Szeth's assignments in my opinion.

[Gloom he/him]

In regards to the problem of how Szeth Is killing people all over the world in such a short time and the issue of timing Szeth is working for a wealthy benifactor now, Taravangian could be providing him with a virtually Limitless amount of stormlight he just needs to re-charge his treasury every highstorm. Hell Szeth could be returning back to Taravangian every night for all we know and departing the following night with a backpack full of charged spheres we have to remember that Szeth is effectively a windrunner and could be using a  10x lashing to fly at near supersonic speeds (only limiting factor would be heat created from wind resistance) crossing the continent as he pleases and picking up fresh supply of stormlight at designated locations......problem solved.

 

It is strongly implied that Szeth took a boat to Kharbranth. If Szeth knew who his benefactor was, then why was he surprised at the end? I think it's pretty strongly implied that Szeth traveled conventionally. If you have a list of people, and that list is static as his was, then you just plan your travels according to how close your targets are to one another. It doesn't seem likely that Szeth had to travel over the greater part of Roshar. It seems like most of his work was centered around Jah Keved.

[Fifth]

It is strongly implied that Szeth took a boat to Kharbranth. If Szeth knew who his benefactor was, then why was he surprised at the end? I think it's pretty strongly implied that Szeth traveled conventionally. If you have a list of people, and that list is static as his was, then you just plan your travels according to how close your targets are to one another. It doesn't seem likely that Szeth had to travel over the greater part of Roshar. It seems like most of his work was centered around Jah Keved.

I was speaking with regard to the death of Primes Re: Steelhunt material and the list he is given at the end of TWoK after Taravangian has been revealed.  My response was to deal with the issue of both a Prime and then a Primes immediate successor being assassinated with in a short time period (I think it was under 10 days) .

[Ethrien he/him]

To me this indicates that Szeth survives the attempt on Dalinar and is following further orders from Mr. T when he kills the Azish Primes.   

I don't think this is that likely, we've got a decent time frame from both TWoK and Lift's Interlude.

 

“Six different monarchs killed . . .” one of the voices said, a new one. “In a mere two months. Highprinces slaughtered throughout the east. Religious leaders. And then, two Primes murdered in a matter of a single week. Storms . . . I almost think it’s another Desolation come upon us.” - Lift's Interlude

He took it, and his Stormlight illuminated some two dozen names written in the warrior script of his homeland. - Szeth TWoK Interlude 6

The massacres he'd committed these months, working for his hidden master... - Szeth TWoK ch71

 

According to Szeth's last chapter in Way of Kings he'd spent 'months' committing these murders whilst the Vizier in Lift's Interlude has the time at two months. Assuming the Azish aren't completely out of the loop on information we can probably take this to be pretty accurate from the start of the slaughter. Even if Szeth is exaggerating and the Vizier rounding the time down, it makes the timeline ridiculously tight. Szeth would need to travel to and from the Shattered Plains and back to Azish more than halfway across the continent, in the time difference between an exaggerated 'months' and rounded down 'two months'.

 

Also the quote gives a count of six monarchs, which could also be taken to mean before the death of the original 24ish, though since its unclear if they count Highprinces or other leaders it isn't particularly useful. Lastly we have evidence the Szeth has already been through Azish (in a geographic sense), Kaladin's Stormvision shows Szeth in Emul and from my understanding Selay is around the Purelake area, meaning he did travel through the area while working on the original list. Since he has already traveled that way it seems odd that the Primes wouldn't be on his original list, they were right in his path. Killing both the Primes seems to me like it would be part of the original list, it fits right into the "tear down to build anew" theme by undermining the Azish form of rule "What do we do when nobody wants to be Prime?"

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ethrien

[Shardlet he/him]

 Szeth would need to travel to and from the Shattered Plains and back to Azish more than halfway across the continent, in the time difference between an exaggerated 'months' and rounded down 'two months'.

 

I'm pretty sure that you have the wrong Highprinces in mind.  Both Alethkar and Jah Keved have a system of Highprinces.  Recall that Szeth has completed his list (at least the first list?) by the end of TWoK.  I'm pretty sure that we'd have noticed if any Alethi Highprinces had been assassinated.  Dalinar would have heard about it immediately and it would have been extremely important for everything he is trying to do.  It would not have simply gone unmentioned. 

 

As to Primes not being on the list, Szeth seemed to be hitting highpoints when he was listed a few of the targets.  It did not sound like we were given an exhaustive reading of everyone on the list.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Shardlet

[Ethrien he/him]

Shardlet I was pointing out that it was unlikely, given time restraints for the Prime death to come after Dalinars, I wasn't suggesting Szeth had already been to the Shattered Plains. He'd spent 'months' on the murders of the first list, and the distance from Kharbranth to the Shattered Plains and back to Azimir is massive, equal to the length of the continent. For the Primes death to occur within two months of the begining of the slaughter but after Dalinar, Szeth would have to be making a massive exageration when he says 'months' in his final chapter in tWoK.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ethrien

[marianmi]

1) It's very possible Lift's interlude happens before Szeth meeting Mr. T.

 

2) It's possible there are no Alethi HP on the list because they are not interfering with Mr. T's plans... they are gone "hunting", each plotting for himself. Looks to me they are way more easily manipulated with bribes and politics. Except Dalinar, of course, he's the first to meddle with his plans.

 

3) It's possible Szeth meeting Mr. T was quite ahead of the rest of the story... when Jasnah was already gone from Karbranth, maybe already on the Shattered Planes. Maybe Dalinar is already Highprice of War, already doing some "uniting". Mr. T wanting to kill Dalinar might be for something we shall see in book 2, not for what we have seen in book 1. Actually, the only thing I can see upsetting T in book 1 is Dalinar working with Sadeas. And that's not a strong argument. From the outside, T would have seen Dalinar trying to work with every HP, and failing. Good news for him. Dalinar trying to work with Sadeas, and being betrayed. Dalinar having his army halved because of the betrayal. He might even expect a war between Dalinar and Sadeas. I am certain Sadeas is on high war alert even after Dalinar gave him his sword. So why would T want to kill Dalinar, make Elhokar drop his war with the Parshendi to find the assasin in white that killed his father AND uncle... since Dalinar is now seen as weakened - his army halved and his name in disgrace, everyone refusing him and mocking him?

 

 

EDIT: can't wait to see Dalinar awesome in book 2

Edited November 4, 2013 by marianmi

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Okay this is maybe a little off topic, but I can't help but totally change the way I was looking at Taravangian when reading his name as "Mr. T." 

 

I pity da fool who ends up in one of my hospitals!

[Shardlet he/him]

@ marianmi- I'm pretty sure that all the chapters are chronological.  I'm not sure if the interludes fall into that same chronology, but each chapter (excepting flashbacks) takes place one after another.  Most of Szeth's chapters are interludes except for the prologue and the Taravangian one (which is a numbered chapter).  Since the last Shallan, Dalinar, and Kaladin chapters are after that (if I recall properly), I would hazard that it is safe to say that Szeth got the Dalinar assassination order before Jasnah left Karbranth and before Dalinar becomes Highprince of War.