Safe hand

[Puck]

... or Meatloaf

I love this place

[FeatherWriter]

Is it just me or do these topics get derailed really quickly? Not that I mind, but it is interesting.

[lordofsoup]

of course it is the internet. This is much more interesting.

[ALT]

It always seemed to me like safe hands were mainly a way of preventing women from being symmetrical.

[WindSpren]

I'm glad I found this thread! I've been wondering about what would happen if a woman on Roshar was left-handed. I can definitely picture parents trying to force their daughters to become right handed since things like the the left hand being the safehand and only women being able to read seem so strict.

So here's another question... What happens when a woman suffers a great injury to her right hand and can no longer use it very well (if at all) for everyday life? Do you think society would make an exception for her to use her left hand for everything or would it be frowned upon even though there is nothing that can be done? Or.. can the people on Roshar make some sort of fabrial prosthetic hand?!

[Tortellini]

I'm glad I found this thread! I've been wondering about what would happen if a woman on Roshar was left-handed. I can definitely picture parents trying to force their daughters to become right handed since things like the the left hand being the safehand and only women being able to read seem so strict.

Left-handed people were forcibly retrained in Western culture 60 years ago, and still are in many parts of the world today. Seems reasonable to expect the same in Roshar.

So here's another question... What happens when a woman suffers a great injury to her right hand and can no longer use it very well (if at all) for everyday life? Do you think society would make an exception for her to use her left hand for everything or would it be frowned upon even though there is nothing that can be done? Or.. can the people on Roshar make some sort of fabrial prosthetic hand?!

Again, in our world you'd accept her using her left hand, but she'd be sort of a freak, which she'd be anyway due to the missing hand. No reason to expect any different. And I don't think there's widespread use of fabrials in Roshar, they seem limited to the upper class, and a "cybernetic" hand seems unlike what we've seen so far. Don't think that exists - yet. Who knows what they develop over time during the series...

[happyman]

I'm glad I found this thread! I've been wondering about what would happen if a woman on Roshar was left-handed. I can definitely picture parents trying to force their daughters to become right handed since things like the the left hand being the safehand and only women being able to read seem so strict.

So here's another question... What happens when a woman suffers a great injury to her right hand and can no longer use it very well (if at all) for everyday life? Do you think society would make an exception for her to use her left hand for everything or would it be frowned upon even though there is nothing that can be done? Or.. can the people on Roshar make some sort of fabrial prosthetic hand?!

I think one thing you have to keep in mind is that the safe-hand restriction is not quite as debilitating as you think. The hand has to be covered, but you are allowed creative ways to actually use the hand. In some cases, especially lower-class, the women just wear a glove. Very few functional limitations with that.

[EHyde]

Is the hand drawn in Navani's notebook meant to be her own? Because that's a left hand ... scandalous! Though I'm sure she never intended millions of readers worldwide to be seeing her private notebook ;-)

[WeiryWriter]

Is the hand drawn in Navani's notebook meant to be her own? Because that's a left hand ... scandalous! Though I'm sure she never intended millions of readers worldwide to be seeing her private notebook ;-)

Well theoretically she would be looking at her hand with it on while she was drawing it. And it is kind of hard to draw something while the hand that is doing the drawing is also the model.

[Dahak]

It always seemed to me like safe hands were mainly a way of preventing women from being symmetrical.

To mirror the deliberate minor asymmetry of their names and thus avoid being too holy [cf Shallan's first chat with the Ardent]? Hmm.

[Ari]

It's also possible that the safehand is simply a woman's off-hand, and lefthanded women have terrible trouble finding clothes that properly cover their right hands.

[EHyde]

It's also possible that the safehand is simply a woman's off-hand, and lefthanded women have terrible trouble finding clothes that properly cover their right hands.

It seemed pretty clear that it was always the left hand (otherwise you'd get a lot of misunderstandings, someone looking at a woman and thinking she was immodest when really she was just left-handed). And judging by the rest of their tech level we've seen, people aren't going to be buying mass-produced clothing. Custom-fitted clothing is much easier to come by when you're making everything yourself, or having it made for you, to begin with

[Ari]

It seemed pretty clear that it was always the left hand (otherwise you'd get a lot of misunderstandings, someone looking at a woman and thinking she was immodest when really she was just left-handed). And judging by the rest of their tech level we've seen, people aren't going to be buying mass-produced clothing. Custom-fitted clothing is much easier to come by when you're making everything yourself, or having it made for you, to begin with

And that's what I get for making a joke.

[EHyde]

Sorry -- I figured it was a joke, but hey, over-analysis is what tends to happen here

[Guest Jacob Santos]

If you look at societies where women are subjugated as they are in the light-eyes, you would see how irrelevant the discussion of left-handed vs right-handed would be. If you think that women have more rights, then you need look at monarchies and the roles of women.

Of course, I could be wrong. There are really only two examples: one where a light-eyes woman is forced to marry a man for money and security and one where a kindly king respects and acknowledges both women. It is possible he is merely placating them as to not rouse suspicion, but this could simply be hindsight bias working. Well, there is a third example, but as that is a father / child relationship and an abusive one at that, it could not be used as evidence.

However, that said, Brandon does appear to be mellow when it comes to this topic. I may be tainted by other authors whom go full steam ahead for the shock value. Well, it would have shock value. I simply see it as implied by Sanderson as opposed to explicit as witnessed in other books.

Sorry to possibility ruin a really awesome joke chain. I just wanted to point out that while you are laughing many of the women on Roshar hate you for mocking their lack of freedom.

[Aoibheann]

What if the Safe Hand were related to the female Knight's healing of Dalinar/Heb in the vision?

Both Knights who came to help Heb, Taffa and Seeli fight off the Midnight Essence, but the female night has "Regrowth" which she uses for healing. We don't know which hand she uses...

"Be at peace," a voice said.

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man's hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm. Her hair was pulled back into a bun. She raised a hand and touched his forehead.

Ice washed across him. Suddenly, his pain was gone. 306

Imagine if Knights Radiant worked in Male/Female teams; the female Knights having the power to heal or keep people safe... It could make it almost sacrilegious to use that hand for mundane tasks.

[FeatherWriter]

This reminds me a little of the Mythwalker chapters, where female Kkell powers are different from males. But I don't think we've seen enough Surgebinders to determine whether or not gender affects powers.

All we have right now are two male Windrunners (one of which has been said to be unconventional) and two female Soulcasters (who are most likely from different orders).

Or - random idea - maybe the orders themselves are genders specific. Like it would be impossible for a female to become a Windrunner or a male to become a Soulcaster. I could easily see that estabishing very different gender roles in a society, with something so intrinsic as the development of powers.

Ooh, except for ardents, who can step outside the lines through the use of fabrials. That would also establish the idea the ardents are beyond the other gender roles as well! I'm liking this theory more and more!

[Arcanist Lupus]

This reminds me a little of the Mythwalker chapters, where female Kkell powers are different from males. But I don't think we've seen enough Surgebinders to determine whether or not gender affects powers.

All we have right now are two male Windrunners (one of which has been said to be unconventional) and two female Soulcasters (who are most likely from different orders).

Or - random idea - maybe the orders themselves are genders specific. Like it would be impossible for a female to become a Windrunner or a male to become a Soulcaster. I could easily see that estabishing very different gender roles in a society, with something so intrinsic as the development of powers.

Ooh, except for ardents, who can step outside the lines through the use of fabrials. That would also establish the idea the ardents are beyond the other gender roles as well! I'm liking this theory more and more!

Except that magic on Roshar is accessed by your actions. If the Orders where gender specific, that would be as much as saying that women cannot have a Protecting/Leading personality, or that a man can't be Creative/Honest. I doubt this is the case.

[ulyssessword]

Except that magic on Roshar is accessed by your actions. If the Orders where gender specific, that would be as much as saying that women cannot have a Protecting/Leading personality, or that a man can't be Creative/Honest. I doubt this is the case.

Those are valid objections, but I'm not dismissing this idea just yet. Of the 10 Heralds, exactly 5 were women, though that may be because of symmetry and not a magical reason. Also, the Divine Attributes do not determine your personality, it only determines whether or not you gain access to magic through it. A woman could have a strong Protecting/Leading personality, but it doesn't mean that she would gain access to Windrunner powers from it, unlike a man would (and vice versa for Creative/Honest).

Another thing is that (in my opinion) the attributes of the odd orders fit with Roshar's male gender roles more closely than with female ones, and the even orders fit with female gender roles better.

Of course, if the even orders were all women and the odd orders all men, it would mean that Shallan and Jasnah would need to be in the same order in order to share the power of soulcasting.

EDIT: Kalak, the male Herald in the prelude is associated with order 8. There goes that theory.

Edited December 10, 2011 by ulyssessword

[Aeshdan]

To get back to the original topic, i think "Safe" in safehand indicates that that hand and everything to do with it is protected from the outside world.

[Catalyst21]

This reminds me a little of the Mythwalker chapters, where female Kkell powers are different from males. But I don't think we've seen enough Surgebinders to determine whether or not gender affects powers.

All we have right now are two male Windrunners (one of which has been said to be unconventional) and two female Soulcasters (who are most likely from different orders).

Or - random idea - maybe the orders themselves are genders specific. Like it would be impossible for a female to become a Windrunner or a male to become a Soulcaster. I could easily see that estabishing very different gender roles in a society, with something so intrinsic as the development of powers.

Ooh, except for ardents, who can step outside the lines through the use of fabrials. That would also establish the idea the ardents are beyond the other gender roles as well! I'm liking this theory more and more!

Technically neither of them are windrunners, Kaladin is on the path to becoming one, and Szeth has the same "power set" as a Windrunner, but is not one. See quote.

source=http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/446239-q-a-with-brandon-sanderson-way-of-kings

Message 21 (page 1):

Do Szeth and Kaladin both belong to the same order of knights radiant?

Message 52 (page 2):

Jay wrote: "Do Szeth and Kaladin both belong to the same order of knights radiant?"

Szeth isn't actually in an order of Knights Radiant. Something different is happening with Szeth that people have already begun to guess. And Kaladin isn't yet a Knight Radiant, but the powers he uses are those of the Windrunners, one of the orders of the Knights Radiant. Szeth is using the same power set. So your phrasing is accurate to that extent.