Gloom he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 "All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds." - Tanatanev 1173, 18 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed mother of four in her sixty-second year. This very much sounds like Jezrien to me. I would argue that Honor or Cultivation saved his life, and he now protects Odium who killed his promises. He made oaths to Honor which he forsook. Who else but the Storm-father can raise his hand and have the storm respond?
Argent he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 It's possible. The last sentence strongly suggests Jezrien, but the rest could be interpreted alternatively (assuming this is Jezrien). "I stand against the one who saved my life" could refer to another Herald, one who has saved the Stormfather's life; it's not a stretch of the imagination, they probably save each others' lives all the time during Desolations. "I protect the one who killed my promises" is a little more difficult though. It could also refer to a Herald - Ishar actually comes to mind, because the Way of Kings prelude names him as the one to suggest they abandon Talenel and the Oathpact. Or it could be more metaphorical, since those pre-death quotes usually are; it could mean that by his inaction, his abandonment of the Oathpact, he protects Odium.
Shardlet he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 I am more inclined to agree with Argent's metaphorical argument. Sort of, "If you are not with us, you are against us". Or more to the point, like Peter Parker bearing a portion of the responsibility for uncle Ben's death because he did not even attempt to stop the man who killed his Uncle when he had the easy means and opportunity.
blackmagic3 he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 This is just pure speculation, but I got a good feeling about this and it goes with the underlying theme of corruption of honor. I would not be surprised if one of the Heralds betrayed the cause.
Argent he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 This is just pure speculation, but I got a good feeling about this and it goes with the underlying theme of corruption of honor. I would not be surprised if one of the Heralds betrayed the cause. There is also this argument, of course. Though I am working on a slightly different theory along similar lines. It might even see the light of day before the week is over...
hoser he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 This very much sounds like Jezrien to me. I would argue that Honor or Cultivation saved his life, and he now protects Odium who killed his promises. I dunno. Honor is long gone. I fail to see how Odium needs or even can be protected. His life: fighting, torture, then guilt and betrayal, hardly seems saved. It could be argued that Taln saved his life. If he is part of Dalinar's security detail, as some suspect, and was at the battle of the tower, then Kaladin could haved saved his life also. He made oaths to Honor which he forsook. Who else but the Storm-father can raise his hand and have the storm respond? I would argue that any surgebinder, Szeth, Kaladin and maybe soon Dalinar could metaphorically have the storm respond. The dramatic lives that have been saved: Kaladin saved Amaram, Kaladin saved Dalinar, Dalinar saved Kaladin, Dalinar saved Sadeas, Sadeas claimed he was sparing Kaladin's life when he hung him out in the highstorm, Amaram claimed he was sparing Kaladin's life when he sold him into slavery and Dalinar saved Elhokar. If there is a big fight involving Szeth, he could experience mercy and fit the scenario. My guess is that it has Kaladin standing against Dalinar and protecting Amaram somehow, as Kaladin promised to protect Tien, and before that, to train in Kharbranth.
Gloom he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Author Posted October 17, 2013 My guess is that it has Kaladin standing against Dalinar and protecting Amaram somehow, as Kaladin promised to protect Tien, and before that, to train in Kharbranth. Just out of curiosity, how exactly did Amaram kill Kaladins promises? What oaths did Kaladin forsake?
Argent he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 In a way, Amaram got Tien killed, despite his promise to Kaladin to keep the kid out of the front lines.
The Count he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) I have, honestly, had my suspicions about Jezrien ever since I read the prologue for the first time... I am torn between Jez being a double agent or just having a super secret grand plan for victory. Either way, I am absolutely certain he did not just give up because he could not take it anymore. At the moment I am more on the Jezrien has a plan side of the argument. More acurately I thnk: Jezrien had a plan which went tits up and fell to pieces when the Radients quit but which will be resurected and stitched back together again as more surgebinders appear. I think in general I prefer the Heralds as fallen gods rather that intentional traitors... Edited October 17, 2013 by MadRand
TaliaRain Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 I rather doubt Jezrien can literally command the highstorms. Do we have any evidence of heralds wielding this level of power? I always read his appellation of Stormfather as "father of the storm riders"
Argent he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 The storm from the quote doesn't have to be a highstorm. Szeth, and I believe Kaladin as well, think of a "raging storm" when they hold Stormlight. If we go with this interpretation, then "the storm responds" is merely a metaphor for Surgebinding. 1
Gloom he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Author Posted October 17, 2013 Oh, I'm not completely sold on this myself, which is why the thread is a question. It becomes an easier sell if you happen to believe that Szeth, whom we all pretty much agree is working for people whose interests run counter to those of the protagonists, is carrying Jezriens' Honorblade. Yes, I'm aware that their are various ways in which the Blade may have been appropriated, but the easiest way for him to carry Jezriens' Blade is if it were given to him.
Shardlet he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) One reason I am disinclined to think that Szeth has Jezrien's Honorblade, or any other Honorblade for that matter, it that Taln's blade is described in the epilogue as being "massive". This suggests that not only is it big, it is bigger than "typical" shardblades. Extrapolating it out a step further, I would expect that all the Honorblades are similarly "massive". In contrast, Szeth's blade is shorter than "typical" shardblades. Not proof, I know, but it is very suggestive to me. Edited October 17, 2013 by Shardlet
Gloom he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Author Posted October 17, 2013 I don't consider that an issue. Shardplate automatically conforms to the wearer. I see no reason to believe that an Honorblade can't be altered by the Herald it belongs to to fit the need of its bearer.
Shardlet he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 That seems, improbable to me. Admittedly, I have no particular evidence against it except to say that it would then make sense for regular shardblades to conform to a smaller size since they have been used primarily to attack human-sized folk for the last 4000 years or so. The large size of a shardblade requires special training and tactics to be wielded effectively. If you are suggesting that it is different because of Jezrien being a Herald or because we are talking about an Honorblade rather than a regular shardblade, then the parallel doesn't necessarily hold up well since the plate has nothing to do with Heralds. Again, not much evidence against it, but it seems off to me.
hoser he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 Just out of curiosity, how exactly did Amaram kill Kaladins promises? What oaths did Kaladin forsake? Promise #1: train to be a healer in Kharbranth. Amaram drafted Tien and Kaladin joined the army instead. Promise dead Promise #2: protect Tien. Amaram let Tien be sent to the front without any training and he was basically sacrificed as spear fodder. Promise dead In contrast, Szeth's blade is shorter than "typical" shardblades. Not proof, I know, but it is very suggestive to me. I don't think it really matters a lot, but technically, IIIRC, Szeth's blade is described as long and thin, double-sided, but not short and not massive.
Gloom he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Author Posted October 17, 2013 "All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds." - Tanatanev 1173, 18 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed mother of four in her sixty-second year. Promise #1: train to be a healer in Kharbranth. Amaram drafted Tien and Kaladin joined the army instead. Promise dead Promise #2: protect Tien. Amaram let Tien be sent to the front without any training and he was basically sacrificed as spear fodder. Promise dead Personally, I don't think this fits, but if you think that is what this quote is referring to, I'll respect your opinion. That seems, improbable to me. Admittedly, I have no particular evidence against it except to say that it would then make sense for regular shardblades to conform to a smaller size since they have been used primarily to attack human-sized folk for the last 4000 years or so. The large size of a shardblade requires special training and tactics to be wielded effectively. If you are suggesting that it is different because of Jezrien being a Herald or because we are talking about an Honorblade rather than a regular shardblade, then the parallel doesn't necessarily hold up well since the plate has nothing to do with Heralds. Again, not much evidence against it, but it seems off to me. There have been no new Shardblades that we are aware of in the last 4000 years or so. None of the Shardblades we have seen have been bonded to a Knight Radiant, outside of those in Dalinars dreams. I will grant that it is unlikely that a Knight Radiant can alter the size of the weapon they wield. We aren't talking about Shardblades though. We are talking about Honorblades, which are more powerful than Shardblades. The parallel is that because of the Plate, we know that changing the relative size of an object is possible through investiture on Roshar. One reason I am disinclined to think that Szeth has Jezrien's Honorblade, or any other Honorblade for that matter, it that Taln's blade is described in the epilogue as being "massive". This suggests that not only is it big, it is bigger than "typical" shardblades. Extrapolating it out a step further, I would expect that all the Honorblades are similarly "massive". In contrast, Szeth's blade is shorter than "typical" shardblades. Not proof, I know, but it is very suggestive to me. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished. These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious. Jezrien stood just outside the ring of swords, looking eastward. Prelude TWoKs Of the Heralds, five are men, and five are women. I suppose it's possible that they were picked by height and that each of them is a towering effigy of humanity, but I tend to doubt this is so. Because of this, I have further doubts that all Honorblades are the massive example that Taln introduced at the end of the book. The quote above offers no insight into the size of the assembled Blades. In fact, the Blade that Taln carries wasn't even described in comparable terms. His muscles glistened , wet as if he'd just swum a great distance. To his side he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger's width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight;it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like and enormous spike. Epilogue TWoKs
Shardlet he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) I don't think it really matters a lot, but technically, IIIRC, Szeth's blade is described as long and thin, double-sided, but not short and not massive. Szeth describes his blade as being shorter than other shardblades. Of the Heralds, five are men, and five are women. I suppose it's possible that they were picked by height and that each of them is a towering effigy of humanity, but I tend to doubt this is so. Because of this, I have further doubts that all Honorblades are the massive example that Taln introduced at the end of the book. The quote above offers no insight into the size of the assembled Blades. In fact, the Blade that Taln carries wasn't even described in comparable terms. Szeth or somebody else, I can't recall just now, said something akin to accounting for the large size of shardblades as being designed to fight something huge in size. If Szeth's blade is what I think it is, it was conversely designed to fight human-sized opponents. There have been no new Shardblades that we are aware of in the last 4000 years or so. None of the Shardblades we have seen have been bonded to a Knight Radiant, outside of those in Dalinars dreams. I will grant that it is unlikely that a Knight Radiant can alter the size of the weapon they wield. We aren't talking about Shardblades though. We are talking about Honorblades, which are more powerful than Shardblades. The parallel is that because of the Plate, we know that changing the relative size of an object is possible through investiture on Roshar. We assume Honorblades are more powerful than shardblades. We know nothing about it and have no evidence to base anything on. As far as we know, we have never seen an Honorblade in action (other than them being driven into the ground and Taln cutting a groove in the ground while dragging his and cutting through the crossbar of the Kholinar gates). We might as well make the assumption that they can shoot down enemies with beams of energy. The evidence is just as strong. Edited October 17, 2013 by Shardlet
Gloom he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Author Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) We assume Honorblades are more powerful than shardblades. We know nothing about it and have no evidence to base anything on. As far as we know, we have never seen an Honorblade in action (other than them being driven into the ground and Taln cutting a groove in the ground while dragging his and cutting through the crossbar of the Kholinar gates). We might as well make the assumption that they can shoot down enemies with beams of energy. The evidence is just as strong. Yes, we do have something to base it on. I'll highlight the part of the quote which is of relevance. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished. These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious. Jezrien stood just outside the ring of swords, looking eastward. Prelude TWoKs Edited October 17, 2013 by Gloom
Shardlet he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 Still just as good evidence for energy beams.
hoser he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 Szeth describes his blade as being shorter than other shardblades. Can you share a quote? From the Prologue: His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others.
Shardlet he/him Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 I don't have my book handy for actual quotes but here a paragraph that I provided in my shardblade theory thread which has citations: "I personally believe that the radiantblades and the Honorblades were formed by Honor (and perhaps with Cultivation as well). However, I believe that Szeth's blade is Odium's version of a shardblade. My basis for this belief is that the radiantblades are described as being massive and as being "designed to slay dark gods" (Hardcover, pg. 29). In contrast, Szeth's blade is described as smaller than normal shardblades (hardcover, pg. 25). As I see it, radiantblades are designed to fight great big nasty unnatural beasties (like thunderclasts) while Szeth's blade is designed to fight humans."
Argent he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Posted October 18, 2013 This is similar to my line of reasoning. Szeth wielding Jezrien's blade has interesting implications, but something always felt off about that theory. Now, his Blade being deliberately designed to kill humans, that I could understand. Though I am not sold on that either - a shorter Blade is (almost always) a disadvantage when your opponent is a Shardbearer. If not for his Stormlight-aided strength, speed, and dexterity, not to mention his Windrunning, Szeth would be a corpse with burned eyes before he could slay his first Shardbearer. Assuming said Shardbearer was even moderately skilled - Gavilar, being one of the best, almost got him even with the Stormlight and the Lashings. A Shardspear (barring in-world cultural implications), or hell, a Shardbow would be much practical for killing humans.
Shardlet he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Posted October 18, 2013 If I was going up against someone who was wielding a claymore, I wouldn't mind having a longsword or a rapier. Sure the claymore has longer reach, but the shorter rapier or longsword has more variety of strokes as well as greater mobility. If both are wielding shardblades then the shorter sword has one set of advantages while the longer sword has a different set. Now if the opposing shardbearer has plate also, then that is certainly more difficult. Just as it would be for longsword against claymore if the claymore guy had full armor. As to the shardbow, there is nothing shard about it except that it takes plate enhanced strength to draw it.
ADIMORTIS he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Posted October 18, 2013 I personally like the theory of Szeth's blade being Jezrien's Honourblade. The size may be smaller but then again , it is mentioned that honorblades are more powerful than shardblades, It may allow a change of size.. Assuming this is correct, the blade may allow Szeth's windrunning powers. If he had some other Herald's honorblade , his powers may have been diffferent... Also I think Kaladin may pick up Szeths blade in WoR... (feel free to crush this theory)...
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