A Stylistic Question: Present or Past tense?

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I've been thinking about possibly starting to do some editing and trying to add info to some Coppermind pages, however I noticed something that threw me off a bit. Many of the articles are written in past tense, especially character articles. 

 

For example, Vin's page states that: "Vin was a half-skaa Mistborn from the world of Scadrial." Should that not be "Vin is a half-skaa Mistborn from the world of Scadrial."?

 

Is this the convention here? Or is it just inconsistency? If so, is there a reason why past tense is being used over present tense? In my experience, present tense is almost always used when talking about fictional characters. It's the convention on wikipedia as well as within the conventions of literary analysis. 

 

Perhaps it's just the English major in me that cringes at all the past tense. But especially for characters whose stories aren't finished yet, it just reads strangely.

Edited October 14, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[Meg]

This might help you a bit, though it doesn't answer your question.

 

Generally the articles are written in past tense except articles about magics (those are written in present).

[Argent he/him]

I will agree with you here. My guess is that the past tense dominates the articles because it feels more natural for a story - Vin's story, for example, was told to us in past tense, so it makes sense that we'd try to preserve that about it. It takes a little formal training / knowledge to know that this is wrong

[Morsk he/him]

I noticed this on Star Trek wikis also. I find it confusing, but it appears to be a widespread convention on fan wikis. It does solve real problems when deciding when the "present" is, especially when prequels get involved.

[Meg]

Uhm, @ Argent, I've told FeatherWriter my own knowledge about how we handle it working on the Coppermind Wiki. At the moment this is the convention for the use of the tenses and so it should be done this way. I've added this to the Style Guide, too.

 

If the admins change their opinion on the tenses they will surely tell us.

 

edit: better wording (hopefully)

Edited October 14, 2013 by Meg

[Argent he/him]

I am arguing against the style guide then :-P

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Yeah, I looked through the style guide and didn't see anything, though now I'm seeing that there is a statement at the bottom saying past tense except for magic systems. (Which I'm assuming you added because of this thread, Meg?)

 

I would argue with you against this style guide, Argent. If we haven't actually set down a guide I'd say present tense should be standard. It's more of an omnipresent tense, especially when talking about things outside of a real world timeline, such as fictional works. It's the convention that is used almost everywhere else, and it would certainly make the articles read more professionally and correctly. Past tense should not be used to talk about fictional things. They exist in the narrative present. 

 

I'll see if I can't catch Joe's attention on skype or somewhere, because I'd like to get an admin's final word on this. I realize that if we do come down on this issue and establish a style, articles will have to be edited. I'd probably take some of that project if need be. (Honestly, I'm really tempted to go in right now and start rewriting things to present tense, but I don't want to cause a bunch of issues if the admins declare we're not going to do it.)

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Oops... I write most of my articles in present tense but none of the admins have ever complained. (Except history sections, those I do in past tense)

[Morsk he/him]

Is this mostly about the first paragraph of the article? A compromise might be to write the first part in out-of-world language, like "Vin is the protagonist of the Mistborn Series. She doesn't appear in any other novels, but in Alloy of Law she's remembered as a mythological figure."

I like past tense. I found it annoying on the Star Trek wiki, but I got used to it. And I'm willing to trust the Star Trek fandom, that if it is annoying, but they feel the need to do it anyway, that it's for a good reason. (Star Wars also seems to use 100% past tense, but I only spent 5 minutes there checking so I might've missed something.) They have hundreds of times our resources and experience.

[Argent he/him]

A few Wikipedia searches suggest that writing about characters and events contemporary to the book(s) go in present tense, while stuff that's history even for the books go in as past. So Vin would be present. The creation of the kandra would be past.

[name_here]

The offical academic convention is for any discussion of events in books to be in the present tense, but I've never really liked that. It just feels unnatural to use present tense when discussing things that happened at different times. It's particularly problematic when attempting to discuss the impact of something on later events.

[Argent he/him]

I don't know, I might be used it. "When X does this, yada yada... Later, when they do that, words, words..." sounds perfectly fine to me.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Yes, Argent and Weiry, I concur. Events that take place within the books should all be present. Backstory and history should be past, I believe. Wikipedia uses this convention for fictional works. So, we might write something like:

 

"The Lord Ruler is the supreme leader of Tte Final Empire throughout the thousand years of his reign. He is both an allomancer and a feruchemist, which gives him incredible power by which he claims to be a divinity. He is killed by Vin on the night of the skaa uprising when she manages to separate him from his metalminds, before then stabbing him through the chest with a spear. In the time before his Ascension, he was a packman the then supposed Hero of Ages, Alendi, and was known as Rashek."

 

This convention (present for novel events/eras, and past for historical) is the standard on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistborn. (Tense emphasis is mine)

When the Lord Ruler ascended to power, he altered all of humanity to be capable of dealing with ash and caused additional slight physiological differences between skaa and nobility. Initial changes made the nobility less fertile, taller, more intelligent, while the skaa were made to be shorter, hardier, and to easily procreate. After a thousand years of sociological and biological mixing, the differences had been almost completely erased. When the series first starts, the skaa are beaten, oppressed, hopeless, superstitious about the Mists and treated as subhuman, less than animals, and it is acceptable for a Noble to have sex with a skaa woman as long as she is immediately killed to prevent Allomantic powers from spreading.

 

It is also the standard for something like a literary article, such as this one on Tor, about the events of a novel: 

(Tense emphasis mine.)

Kelsier tells Vin that tin is one of the “internal” metals. Marsh elaborates further on this when he tells Vin that an internal metal “...changes something inside yourself...” 

Edited October 15, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[Argent he/him]

Literary powers, activate!

[Joe ST he/him]

I prefer past tense, because we are documenting the history of the cosmere.

[Meg]

 (Which I'm assuming you added because of this thread, Meg?)

 

Yes

 

because I'd like to get an admin's final word on this. ...

 

That's a good idea but until that "final word" is given I'd suggest to go with how it's handled now. 

 

Examples: 

 

... thank you for contributing. I rolled back some of your edits, as we prefer things to be in the past-tense.

source

 

or

A few points to help you edit better:

because the Cosmere books are all in the same universe, it has been decided that the articles should be written in the past tense

source

 

So, as long as there is no contradicting rule given by the admins -- as I said -- we should go with this convention. 

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Yeesh, that's unfortunate then. It seems that past-tense is the accepted mode of formatting for the Coppermind... Which means, I probably not be contributing much. I can't risk getting into the habit of writing past tense about things like this, because I'd probably slip up and do it in my papers and articles, which would be really bad. I write essays and articles all the time, and I have to be sure I'm doing it right. I've got to keep my stylistic integrity over here. I don't think I want to train myself to do it incorrectly and start to read the past-tense as normal. I've worked too hard to do the opposite and think naturally in fictional present tense.

 

Sorry guys. If the Coppermind ever does decide to make the switch to present tense though, I will happily reformat articles all across the board and celebrate! 

[Windrunner he/him]

I tend to agree with Joe on character articles. To me, when you're writing about a universe with a timeline stretched over millenia, writing about people in present tense doesn't make too much sense, especially when they've died onscreen, like the Lord Ruler did.

I tend to have more trouble with cultural things such a spheres. To say that spheres "were a currency used on Roshar," seems kind of odd, but I'm not overly concerned, especially considering what's been said about other fan wikis.

[Joe ST he/him]

I'm sorry Feather, I kinda wish you could convince us, I'm not totally adverse to the omnipresent I don't think, but I do agree with Windy that the fact we are over millenia and we are trying to document the history.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Hey, it's you guys' wiki! I'm not necessarily trying to convince you that you should change! I'm a linguist! I'm all for people speaking/talking/writing however they want! I'm not trying to tell you that it's wrong! Not at all!

 

You guys want to use past tense for articles? Go for it! You want to make the standard of writing Early Modern English instead of Late Modern? I pray thou dost find fortuity in thine endeavor! You want to use "ain't" and slang and such? So long as everyone can understand it, I ain't got a problem with it! As long as all of your contributors are on the same page, you guys can do whatever you want! Nothing wrong with that in the slightest! These changes might make the wiki seem less "professional," but it's certainly your choice to make!

 

However, the use of past tense in literary discussion situations is counter-conventional. Of course, there's nothing that says you guys have to follow all conventions and such - of course not! -  and we've seen plenty of other fanwikis that don't! But I, as an individual, am going to choose not to participate. I have to write things for other literary circles which do care about those kinds of conventions and where, if I am not following "the rules," I'm not going to be taken seriously. (Or in the case of my English classes, get marked down for it.)

 

I've trained myself to write in literary present instinctively, and I just don't want to compromise that. I like not having to think too hard about my tenses because I've trained myself to do it correctly without too much effort.

 

If a past tense form makes sense to you all, and you decide that that's what you want to do (which seems to be the case), then I wish you good luck in it, and will simply say that I'm sorry I won't be able to help out! 

Edited October 15, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I think I actually agree with Feather on this (Writers Unite!).

 

We, and the Coppermind, are not "in-world."  We exist outside of the novels' time-streams, as a result its entirety, past, present, and future, exists in our present so using the past tense to discuss things is inaccurate.  As Feather states using the present tense to discuss characters and such is the "professional" convention.  I had to use it in my English classes as well.  Now I know we've had a similar discussion with the whole "His or her vs. their" thing a while ago but I do think we should try to be as professional as we can with the wiki.  I want it to be a source of pride for our fandom, I want other fandoms looking at it and saying "Man I wish our wiki looked that good."  Now there are instances where past tense could, and should, be used, namely History sections but most stuff should be in present tense.

 

On a side-note, I'm thinking we should try and come up with some article formatting guidelines and such so similar articles are formatted in the same way/look the same, with same section headings and such. I.e. Character articles, we kind of have a hodge-podge of different formatting systems.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I think I may have come off a little harshly before. I've been persuaded to reconsider my non-intervention policy and am working on some edits right now. I am going ahead and using present tense. If that's a problem, I'm sure someone can edit it away later. Pouring some much-needed love into this wiki is something I'm going to try to do, though.

 

As it seems that there isn't a set tense convention yet, just trends that people have used, I'd highly suggest that present be adopted universally. Perhaps there should be a vote taken or something such?

 

@Weiry: I think a standard for similar types of articles is an excellent idea. I'm doing some heavy revisions on a character article, and it would help to have a framework to work off of, rather than trying to come up with headers and sections on one's own.

Edited October 15, 2013 by FeatherWriter

[Chaos he/him]

This is a fantastic discussion to be having. Joe, Windy, and I have had extensive debate on the subject. It's a good one to bring back up. I would say, Feather and Weiry, you should write in whatever tense makes you happy. That's always been my opinion. I want policies that encourage I often write things in present as well, but I get away with it because I write articles on magic. Of course, that's kind of untenable in large scale wiki, and we should have some sort of policy to deal with this sort of thing. Now is a really great time to solidify policies, because while we have a lot of articles, after thirty more cosmere books (not to mention a bunch of non-cosmere stuff of Brandon's), it would be really bad to correct things afterwards. Better to do it when we have 1500 than 15,000, you know.

Meg, I had actually not included the tense thing in the Style Guide due to this ambiguity. I didn't want to open that can of worms XD So, now's a good time to standardize that stuff.

I'll make a more in-depth reply right now, but I must say Feather makes a good point. I am inclined to agree with the English major here. I'll explain my reasoning in a bit.

I fully agree that we need a section guideline for each type of article. In fact I had intended to something like that eventually, but got busy. Story of my life. I do want to make, like, a thing that shows proper article structure for Characters, Places, and all the high level categories. For section guidelines, I think we should make it so not every section is necessarily required, and additional ones can be added if necessary (for example, Hoid's article requires a few special Hoid-specific sections that would not be needed on other character articles).

For characters, I say that we should have at least, in no particular order: Personality, Appearance, History, Abilities, Quotes (because cool quotes should always be included if the article warrants it), and Trivia. I think Personality and Appearance can be grouped together in one section, as they aren't really long sections compared with History. History can, of course, have multiple subsections. There can also be a section about, like, Brandon's process in creating a character, which would usually come from annotations. That section could be called Development or something. It's like the section on Wikipedia's movie articles about the production of the film. That'd be a cool section to have which we often neglect.

Am I missing any major sections for Character articles?

[Argent he/him]

I am not sure I agree with an Abilities section for characters. This - and maybe you too - implies magical abilities, and the majority of Brandon's characters don't have those. 

[Windrunner he/him]

Wow, Feather. The quality of your Renarin article makes me consider changing my mind on the tense thing. I need to ponder some more.