Surges, orders and abilities

[11thorderknight]

Hi all,

 

So, recent discussions about the names of the various orders and their surges has me questioning a couple of things.

 

We know that each Order shares two Surges with the two adjacent orders. But does that mean that each Order is able to do the same things with them? Or does each Order combine its two surges to form a unique set of abilities?

 

For instance, the Windrunners, who are the only ones we know about for sure, share Pressure and Gravity, and they can perform their Three Lashings. The Basic and Reverse Lashing seem to be related to Gravity, whereas the Full Lashing seems to be more to do with Pressure. Does that mean that one of its neighbors will be able to do the Full Lashing and the other the Basic/Reverse? Or, will they each combine Pressure and Gravity with another surge to create entirely different abilities?

 

[Argent he/him]

Interesting... I've never actually questioned how those things will work out. It has been my assumption that, for example, Gravity comes with its own abilities, and Pressure comes with its own abilities, and the two don't mingle. In your words, one of the Windrunners' "neighboring" orders would be able to perform Basic/Reverse Lashings (plus whatever their other surge grants them), and the other neighbor would be able to perform Full Lashing (plus whatever comes from the other surge).

[Windrunner he/him]

I'm pretty sure the abilities are the same for adjacent orders. After all, Transformation is interpreted as Soulcasting by two adjacent orders.

[Natans he/him]

I allways thinked that is was a little of the both.

 

You could do some basic things with the surge and you could combine your two surges to do something unique associated with your order.

 

A example "could" be Jasnah "lightning soulcaster ray" both Shallan and Jasnah can soulcast, but I think that the ray thing is exclusive to Jasnah order(only a guess for now).

 

=)

 

Edit.

 

Another idea is that the "Full Lashing" could be the association of gravity and atmosferic pressure to make two objects "bond". If I'm correct the another order with the atmosferic pressure surge won't be able to do the full lashing, but will use this surge to create another effect.

 

For now, It's a little bit dificult know for sure, because we only know the powers of no adjacents orders =)

Edited October 7, 2013 by Natans

[Two McMillion he/him]

If that's the case, it seems like the Windrunners ought to have at least one more ability. Sharing two abilities with an adjacent order and one with another doesn't seem really symmetrical.

 

Plus, given how Sanderson's magic works, I would expect each surge to grant the same number of abilities, rather than some giving one, some giving two, etc. This makes the Windrunners' possession of three abilities kind of odd, though. Perhaps each grants one ability, each shared with an adjacent order, and then the two combine to grant a third ability, unique to each order? Not sure which one of the Windrunners abilities this might be, though...

 

I've always thought it odd that some surges seem significantly less powerful than others. Gravity is a powerful thing. Pressure? Not so much, IMO.

[Argent he/him]

Careful with the counts - the fact that Szeth can perform three Lashings doesn't mean this is the limit for Windrunners. Not only is Szeth not a real Windrunner, a lot of knowledge has been lost since the Recreance too.

[Two McMillion he/him]

Careful with the counts - the fact that Szeth can perform three Lashings doesn't mean this is the limit for Windrunners. Not only is Szeth not a real Windrunner, a lot of knowledge has been lost since the Recreance too.

 

Okay, fair point. *sigh* This just makes me want the next book more!

[Moogle]

I've always thought it odd that some surges seem significantly less powerful than others. Gravity is a powerful thing. Pressure? Not so much, IMO.

 

I disagree with that one. Pressure has its moments!

 

A crack shook the air, like an enormous clap of thunder, though the sky was completely clear. Teft stumbled back—having just set the bridge in place—and found himself gaping with the rest of Bridge Four. Kaladin exploded with energy. A burst of whiteness washed out from him, a wave of white smoke. Stormlight. The force of it slammed into the first rank of Parshendi, tossing them backward, and Teft had to hold his hand up against the vibrancy of the light.

 

Saying each Order only has 'two' abilities is a bit misleading, because each Surge can be used in different ways. There's at least two things you can do with Gravity (possibly two with Pressure as well if the above quote is any indication, which it probably is), and I see no reason the other Surges will be any different, except, perhaps, for Transformation.

 

We haven't even seen Szeth use Pressure to bind people together. It's not limited to spraying doors!

Edited October 7, 2013 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

I would argue that Kaladin does more than three lashings:

• He does something with stormlight to cushion his landing when he falls from the bridge after stashing the armor.
• He does something with stormlight to amplify his voice to get Adolin's attention.
• Stormriding seems like a thing.

[Morsk he/him]

I think there are 20 powers. 10 are shared and belong to two Orders each, and are like "What's a good Surge and power for fighting Voidbringers?" 10 are unique, and are like "What 3rd ability does this Order need to make it unique and valuable?" It's mostly speculation; I haven't kept track of when quotes support it vs. when the quote is ambiguous and I just prefer it this way.

[11thorderknight]

Good points, guys. Seems like the talk of the Three Lashings got me confused. 

 

There was definitely a WoB quote out there though, that said something about each Order having something unique. Maybe Morsk is onto something...

[Gloom he/him]

Okay, Szeth is not a physicist. I'm not either, but this is how I think Wind Running works.

 

When Szeth lashes the balcony, I don't think he's increasing gravity. Brandon likes scientific magic, so I don't think he's going to break the laws of physics without having a means of justifying it. What I think Szeth did on the balcony was put an incredible amount of pressure on it causing it to collapse.

 

The Wind Runner in the flashback fell out of the sky, so I think that is a combination of pressure and gravity. Decreasing gravity to fly, and increasing the pressure below him as he falls to slow his decent to a point where his Shardplate can handle the impact.

 

Lashing yourself to the wall is almost certainly gravity.

 

Kaladins released a pressure wave after his jump across the chasm.

 

I believe Kaladin will be able to leap chasms without a bridge in WoR through gravity manipulation. I don't think Szeth can do this because he hasn't spoken the words.

 

I believe a full lashing is a combination of pressure and gravity. Either one on it's own seems unlikely to draw all objects to a specific location. I could be wrong, they could be creating a miniature gravity well.

 

Szeth knows what he's doing with the limited power set he has available to him, whoever trained him knew what they were talking about. It's just the science behind it that he's clueless about.

 

I would say lashings, are all one power. It's just a versatile power. Storm Riding would be another power. Creating pressure waves may be a third power.

[The Count he/him]

When Szeth lashes the balcony, I don't think he's increasing gravity. Brandon likes scientific magic, so I don't think he's going to break the laws of physics without having a means of justifying it. What I think Szeth did on the balcony was put an incredible amount of pressure on it causing it to collapse.

 

Will need to read the section again really, but from what I remember, he used multiple basic lashings on the balcony. This is the same one he used to walk on walls and toss furniture about.

 

That would make me think that he did indeed increase the effect of gravity on the balcony.

 

My memory may be flawed here though, so you could be correct.

 

I believe Kaladin will be able to leap chasms without a bridge in WoR through gravity manipulation. I don't think Szeth can do this because he hasn't spoken the words.

 

Remember we have only seen Szeth fight indoors so we have not seen him in a situation where such a power would be used.

 

IIRC he used a 'partial' lashing to make himself lighter while fighting the Jah Keved king. This leads me to think Szeth would definitely be able to leap chasms using his powers.

 

Personally, I think the 'level-ups' from the oaths give efficiency and capacity for stormilight rather than extra powers. Kaladin can hold Stormlight longer than Szeth and use it more efficiently. I suppose that there could be some abilities where powers are not possible without better stormlight control, the ability to use lashings in Shardplate could be one of these I guess.

 

As for the powers, it would seem sensible that there are 'pure' powers from the surges and 'mixed' powers from the unique interactions of the two surges.

 

Using Jasnah's lightning powers an example. I think there has been speculation that this is a mix of Transformation (Soulcasting) and Travel. So this would be a good example of a mixed ability.

Edited October 8, 2013 by MadRand

[Looter he/him]

Okay, Szeth is not a physicist. I'm not either, but this is how I think Wind Running works.

 

When Szeth lashes the balcony, I don't think he's increasing gravity. Brandon likes scientific magic, so I don't think he's going to break the laws of physics without having a means of justifying it. What I think Szeth did on the balcony was put an incredible amount of pressure on it causing it to collapse.

 

The Wind Runner in the flashback fell out of the sky, so I think that is a combination of pressure and gravity. Decreasing gravity to fly, and increasing the pressure below him as he falls to slow his decent to a point where his Shardplate can handle the impact.

 

Lashing yourself to the wall is almost certainly gravity.

 

Kaladins released a pressure wave after his jump across the chasm.

 

I believe Kaladin will be able to leap chasms without a bridge in WoR through gravity manipulation. I don't think Szeth can do this because he hasn't spoken the words.

 

I believe a full lashing is a combination of pressure and gravity. Either one on it's own seems unlikely to draw all objects to a specific location. I could be wrong, they could be creating a miniature gravity well.

 

Szeth knows what he's doing with the limited power set he has available to him, whoever trained him knew what they were talking about. It's just the science behind it that he's clueless about.

 

I would say lashings, are all one power. It's just a versatile power. Storm Riding would be another power. Creating pressure waves may be a third power.

 

 

I don't know how all the abilities work but I will say that gravity can be manipulated in many various ways.  Physics says that the faster something moves the more mass and gravity has an effect on you.  Maybe the lashings are a way to bond a form of energy, stormlight, with a target and that energy is creating a warped gravity field due to its interaction, speed, and direction as imposed by the Surgebinder.

 

  I don't know but Stormlight seems pretty freaking awesome for its utility. With the right training it would not surprise me to see people Fighting surgebinders be outfought just by walking in the wrong area,  Like a piece of floor set as a trap that literally has dozens of G's worth of gravity and pressure turning those that walk through it into pancakes with crushed bones and stopped hearts.  Just by walking around a corner over a spot on the ground.  Yeah I love Brandons magic systems.

[Argent he/him]

Physics says that the faster something moves the more mass and gravity has an effect on you.

The other way around. Take photons, for example - they are massless particles (lowest possible mass) that travel at the speed of light (fastest possible speed).

[Isomere]

Other other way around Argent. The faster an object is moving the more energy it takes to increase the speed by 1 MPH, which means mass effectively increases with velocity. The mass approaches infinity as you near the speed of light, so you could dump in all the energy in the universe and it would not accelerate noticeably. Light is an exception since it has seemingly no mass.

I have never studied changes in how gravity interactions are altered by speed, anyone know?

[Argent he/him]

Light is not an exception - the universe doesn't play favorites. But I think we are interpreting the question differently - I am looking at it with the idea that, given a constant force and time, an object with higher mass will accelerate to a lower velocity than an object with lower mass (F = ma & a = v/t). You are thinking relativistically here - close to the speed of light, it takes exponentially more energy to produce the same change in velocity (e.g. accelerating an electron to 90% of the speed of light takes five times less energy than accelerating it from 90% to 99.99999%).

 

Regardless. Not important.

 

I think it's safe to abandon the "energy -> mass -> gravity" train of thought," since the amount of energy equivalent to a mass high enough to, for example, quickly and dramatically alter the path of arrows will enough to do some really nasty things. I am will to attribute this part of the magic system to "well, it's magic."

[Gloom he/him]

Okay, so unless I'm mistaken again, that means all of Szeths powers are from one surge, gravity. If I'm understanding correctly, we don't see Szeth use pressure at all, and we don't see Kaladin use pressure until after he says the second ideal. So at this point, if we didn't have WoB on it, we wouldn't even know if Szeth was using Wind Runner powers or the powers of the associated Order.

[Argent he/him]

True (maybe - it's been a looong time since I read the book). I seem to remember that somebody specifically asked Brandon whether Szeth and Kaladin would belong to the same order, if they were Radiants. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Okay, so unless I'm mistaken again, that means all of Szeths powers are from one surge, gravity. If I'm understanding correctly, we don't see Szeth use pressure at all, and we don't see Kaladin use pressure until after he says the second ideal. So at this point, if we didn't have WoB on it, we wouldn't even know if Szeth was using Wind Runner powers or the powers of the associated Order.

 

False, Szeth has access to both surges.  The Basic Lashing and the Reverse Lashing (which might just be a specialized version of the Basic) have to do with Gravity.  The Full Lashing has to do with Pressure.

[Gloom he/him]

That's interesting. What evidence do we have to support this? I'm not doubting you, but I am curious. I always pictured a full lashing as the creation of a tiny directed gravity well. I don't know how pressure would pull something. Everything I can think of with regards pressure, it is pushing on something. Pressure underwater can crush a submarine, if I put pressure on a can it crushes, if a plane is depressurized, it evacuates that pressure. The only instance I can think of where pressure draws everything to one spot is a drain.

 

So does that mean that friction would decrease in the direction of the lashing? Does that mean that if an object was heading on a parallel course to the full lashing that friction would partially increase on that object forcing it to turn and head towards the lashing?

[Natans he/him]

That's interesting. What evidence do we have to support this? I'm not doubting you, but I am curious. I always pictured a full lashing as the creation of a tiny directed gravity well. I don't know how pressure would pull something. Everything I can think of with regards pressure, it is pushing on something. Pressure underwater can crush a submarine, if I put pressure on a can it crushes, if a plane is depressurized, it evacuates that pressure. The only instance I can think of where pressure draws everything to one spot is a drain.

 

So does that mean that friction would decrease in the direction of the lashing? Does that mean that if an object was heading on a parallel course to the full lashing that friction would partially increase on that object forcing it to turn and head towards the lashing?

 

The Ars Arcanum in the end of the book relate the full lashing with the atmosferic pressure surge.

 

Every time that you do a full lashing the objects lashed togther "leak stormlight" so maybe is like you said, the full lashing acts like a depressurized plane, where the stormlight acts like the air and one object is sucked by the difference of pressure caused by the full leashing.

 

In this line of thought you could imagine that the the pressure is so great that one object is bond to the other like a some kind of plug being sucked by the drain or despressurized plane like you sugested.

 

That would be my guess at least.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Natans

[Gloom he/him]

THAT makes sense. Up vote for you!

 

If pressure pushes, than an absence of pressure simulates a pulling effect. Why I missed that when I clearly established that it was possible in my previous post is beyond me. My synapses are obviously misfiring today.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Gloom

[Natans he/him]

THAT makes sense. Up vote for you!

 

If pressure pushes, than an absence of pressure simulates a pulling effect. Why I missed that when I clearly established that it was possible in my previous post is beyond me. My synapses are obviously misfiring today.

 

The theory is yours I would never think about how the full lashing works if you hadn't established the premises.

 

Here take you a upvote, kind sr

[happyman he/him]

I know it's been a bit, but I wanted to clarify a bit about mass, energy and gravity from earlier in the thread.  I've been doing some reading at Matt Strassler's blog about quantum field theory, string theory, and the like, and the answer is somewhat simpler (and less intuitive) than the discussion here.

 

Basically, gravity responds to energy.  That is it.  The amount of gravity you experience as coming from a system depends on how much total energy it has, period.  Thus photons (which are massless but have energy) respond to gravity (and technically create gravity, although theory has a hard time with this point) the same way your body does.  The difference is that most of your energy is bound up in the protons and neutrons of your component atoms.

 

Even here, things are more subtle than you might think; most of the energy in the protons and neutrons (which we perceive as mass) is actually kinetic and potential energy rather than actual mass.  Mass is really quite an emphereal thing when you look at it quantum-mechanically.  It's just easily the most common form of energy in our environment, and stable, so we know lots about it intuitively.