Putting the Vo in Vorinism

[Corax]

So, this may be a ridiculous stretch, but do we know who, precisely, founded Vorinism? Because there's a fellow from another particularly vibrant planet who's name seems suspiciously similar. (Though, of course, it's probably just coincidence...)

 

I'm speaking of Vo, the FIrst Returned. Hear me out:

 

There seems to be a bit of history of interplay between Nalthis and Roshar, spanning centuries at least. Someone among the Five Scholars were at least aware of Shardblades.

 

The monks of Austre seem to have a very similar style and some similar traditions to Vorinism's ardentia. (Though these could simply be following traditional monk-like themes).

 

And finally, perfect pitch always seemed like a non sequitur among the abilities granted by advanced Heightenings. When I hear the phrase "Iridescent Tones" I first thought musical tones, not hues of color. Could this have some connection with cymatics? Pure tones to resonate holy symmetry?

 

Eh, it's probably all the ramblings of a sleep-deprived lunatic, but I thought it would be fun to mention, at least!

[anarchitect]

Also, the priests of Vorinism claimed to have visions and foresee prophecies which also kinda links into Warbreaker

[Yata he/him]

Also, the priests of Vorinism claimed to have visions and foresee prophecies which also kinda links into Warbreaker

Sorry but Aren't the Prophecies and visions forbitten by the Vorinism ?

They think about to Voidbringer's power.

[Oudeis he/him]

Sorry but Aren't the Prophecies and visions forbitten by the Vorinism ?

They think about to Voidbringer's power.

While this is true of current Vorinism, way way back when it was founded visions were not, apparently, forbidden (though Tanavast himself calls future-sight forbidden, so I that's a big sticking point).

 

There seems to be a bit of history of interplay between Nalthis and Roshar, spanning centuries at least. Someone among the Five Scholars were at least aware of Shardblades.

 

The monks of Austre seem to have a very similar style and some similar traditions to Vorinism's ardentia. (Though these could simply be following traditional monk-like themes).

 

And finally, perfect pitch always seemed like a non sequitur among the abilities granted by advanced Heightenings. When I hear the phrase "Iridescent Tones" I first thought musical tones, not hues of color. Could this have some connection with cymatics? Pure tones to resonate holy symmetry?

 

Eh, it's probably all the ramblings of a sleep-deprived lunatic, but I thought it would be fun to mention, at least!

 

First: This is actually a brilliant connection. Don't know that I believe it yet, but well caught!

 

1. This quote fascinates me. Note, however, that it says "those involved". It's long been a question of mine, who besides Talaxin and Shashara were involved in NIghtblood's creation? Presumably, there was a sword first, which was Awakened. Who forged the sword? One of those two? Did they have attendents? Lab assistants? Patrons? Other Gods? Was someone from Roshar there subtly manipulating them into making something for him, like this?

(Okay this just spawned a new crazy theory I'm gonna kick around a bit... what if it was Nin? What if he needed a Shardblade, hopped to Nalthis, and manipulated things to get Nightblood? Only really thinking this because he ends up with the sword. Just something that came to me, not positive if it will bear scrutiny or if I even believe it myself.)

 

2. This... is an excellent point. Though really just with the baldness. They aren't a group of scholars, and they collectively serve a common good. Remember that the ownership aspect of ardents is comparatively new. We've really just got bald, allows you to break gender roles, and you apparently must be one to marry one. I wonder if an ardent could marry an Austre monk...

 

3. Meh, I feel like this is explained by Mr. Sanderson's explanation that "perfect color recognition" is like perfect pitch for your eyes. There's the perfect shade of red (like a perfect middle C) and then every exact amount more blue, yellow, white or black (which is odd that it's not CMYK since it's pigments but I guess you're testing the quality of the light, so they're just wrong in-universe when they talk about it being the pillar, not the light coming off the pillar... I'm not really sure here) is a "step" away from true. But good question about cymatics; I wonder what someone with perfect pitch would think of the notes that produce the patterns? However, wouldn't the same vibration within stone produce a different note than the same vibration within sand? Let alone the metal of the disk itself?

 

On the subject of cymatics and tie-ins, the Well of Ascension was in a chamber with clearly natural pillars of stalactites and stalagmites in impossibly symmetrical shapes. Cymatics?

[DreamEternal]

On the subject of cymatics and tie-ins, the Well of Ascension was in a chamber with clearly natural pillars of stalactites and stalagmites in impossibly symmetrical shapes. Cymatics?

Few things say "this place is important" as elegantly as natural formations in ordered ways that shouldn't appear in nature.

About the perfect pitch, I think it, just like the enhaced colorsense and the investiture("life")sense are extencions of the same ability to perceive wavelenghts better, like a reverse lightweaving, as investiture often manifests as pulses and frequencies.

Have you ever read Skaa's L-String theory? It posits that all magics are offshots of the Lightweaving of investiture itself, and many other fascinating hypothesis.

Edited September 12, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

An important piece of evidence of a connection could be the Shash rune. Siri mentions that it's part of the Hallandren alphabet, and then, of course, it's also burned into Kaladin's forehead. The symbol and meaning are different, but the name is the same.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

So, this may be a ridiculous stretch, but do we know who, precisely, founded Vorinism? Because there's a fellow from another particularly vibrant planet who's name seems suspiciously similar. (Though, of course, it's probably just coincidence...)

I'm speaking of Vo, the FIrst Returned. Hear me out:

 

There seems to be a bit of history of interplay between Nalthis and Roshar, spanning centuries at least. Someone among the Five Scholars were at least aware of Shardblades.

 

The monks of Austre seem to have a very similar style and some similar traditions to Vorinism's ardentia. (Though these could simply be following traditional monk-like themes).

 

And finally, perfect pitch always seemed like a non sequitur among the abilities granted by advanced Heightenings. When I hear the phrase "Iridescent Tones" I first thought musical tones, not hues of color. Could this have some connection with cymatics? Pure tones to resonate holy symmetry?

 

Eh, it's probably all the ramblings of a sleep-deprived lunatic, but I thought it would be fun to mention, at least!

 

Have an upvote, cause this is pure brilliant! I like it, although i have a few different views on the Tones.

 

First: This is actually a brilliant connection. Don't know that I believe it yet, but well caught!

 

1. This quote fascinates me. Note, however, that it says "those involved". It's long been a question of mine, who besides Talaxin and Shashara were involved in NIghtblood's creation? Presumably, there was a sword first, which was Awakened. Who forged the sword? One of those two? Did they have attendents? Lab assistants? Patrons? Other Gods? Was someone from Roshar there subtly manipulating them into making something for him, like this?

(Okay this just spawned a new crazy theory I'm gonna kick around a bit... what if it was Nin? What if he needed a Shardblade, hopped to Nalthis, and manipulated things to get Nightblood? Only really thinking this because he ends up with the sword. Just something that came to me, not positive if it will bear scrutiny or if I even believe it myself.)

 

On the subject of cymatics and tie-ins, the Well of Ascension was in a chamber with clearly natural pillars of stalactites and stalagmites in impossibly symmetrical shapes. Cymatics?

 

I'm guessing it was definitely a Herald. We know one went back for their blade but do we know if they were actually able to take it/it actually was taken? If it is Nin who had a part in it, then perhaps he went back for his blade but couldn't retrieve it so he had to find a way to get another.

An important piece of evidence of a connection could be the Shash rune. Siri mentions that it's part of the Hallandren alphabet, and then, of course, it's also burned into Kaladin's forehead. The symbol and meaning are different, but the name is the same.

 

 There are similarities between the Shardworlds as most of the language originates on Yolen so it could be possible that Rosharan cultural influences were brought over if the connection between the Ardentia and Austre monks is legit.

Edited September 12, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Corax]

An important piece of evidence of a connection could be the Shash rune. Siri mentions that it's part of the Hallandren alphabet, and then, of course, it's also burned into Kaladin's forehead. The symbol and meaning are different, but the name is the same.

 

Ooh, I hadn't even known that, I'll check it out. (After I finish going back over the Story of Derethil and the Wandersail to look for clues... >.>)

[windrunner16]

I love how the connection between Nalthis and Roshar is ever deepening!

 

I think that Nightblood does have a chance of being created by a Herald, or at least a Herald assisted or manipulated in it. He (Nightblood) kind of seems like a cross between an Honorblade and a live Shardblade. He speaks in the bearer's head (like a bonded spren would), but he also feeds upon Investiture (Syl said that Honorblades do the same). I also think that Nalan is connected with Nightblood because an extreme desire to destroy evil is a very Nalan-Skybreaker temperament.

[natc]

I believe WoB is that at least one of the people who helped create Nightblood was doing so with the knowledge and concept of shardblades in mind. So one of the Five Scholars knew more than they were letting on.

The Heralds have not left Greater Roshar, however. So either it was someone else who provided the information, or one of the scholars worldhopped then came back.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

The Heralds have not left Greater Roshar, however. So either it was someone else who provided the information, or one of the scholars worldhopped then came back.

 

I thought we still don't have clarification/confirmation on that IIRC, (unless you've seen a WoB i haven't) as we don't know the timescale of Warbreaker history matching up to SA history, nor do we know the results of the Heralds splintering/cracking the Oathpact. In the number of millenia (actual number escapes me, was it 4500?) between the Breaking and the start of SA, it could be possible for one/all of them to be able to Worldhop due to the Oathpact's fractured state as it was most likely the Oathpact keeping them (and Odium) bound to the Greater Roshar system (granted this is speculation, but highly possible)

Edited September 14, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Oudeis he/him]

the Five Scholars knew more than they were letting on.

 

You're assuming here that only the Scholars were involved in its creation; first, keep in mind that of the Scholars, it was only Talaxin and Shashara who had direct hands in Awakening it. And we have no idea how many other people who weren't of the Scholars could have been involved, so we don't know it was the Scholars themselves.

 

Hypothetically, a Herald (or anyone from Roshar with knowledge of Sprenblades) could have come to Nalthis, found Shashara, explained to her the underlying concepts (either admitting his nature or pretending to be a simple researcher) and become her patron, colleague or assistant. Of course, another option is that either Vasher or Shashara actually had been to Roshar and had studied Sprenblades on their own. Either is an option.

 

WoB is that Nightblood is specifically "third generation", which implies he was based on the Sprenblades, not on the actual Honorblades, which might suggest it wasn't a Herald. Although, it's possible a Herald didn't think to replicate the Honorblades until the Spren did, studied how the Spren did it, and based the research on this dataset. Basically, anything is possible.

[anarchitect]

So, this may be a ridiculous stretch, but do we know who, precisely, founded Vorinism? Because there's a fellow from another particularly vibrant planet who's name seems suspiciously similar. (Though, of course, it's probably just coincidence...)

I'm speaking of Vo, the FIrst Returned. Hear me out:

There seems to be a bit of history of interplay between Nalthis and Roshar, spanning centuries at least. Someone among the Five Scholars were at least aware of Shardblades.

The monks of Austre seem to have a very similar style and some similar traditions to Vorinism's ardentia. (Though these could simply be following traditional monk-like themes).

And finally, perfect pitch always seemed like a non sequitur among the abilities granted by advanced Heightenings. When I hear the phrase "Iridescent Tones" I first thought musical tones, not hues of color. Could this have some connection with cymatics? Pure tones to resonate holy symmetry?

Eh, it's probably all the ramblings of a sleep-deprived lunatic, but I thought it would be fun to mention, at least!

[anarchitect]

Just thought of something. Let's assume that this theory is correct, and that Vo was heavily invested in creating Nightblood and worldhopped for his research.

Firstly, based on this theory, we know he travelled to Roshar to study shardblades/honorblades.

SECONDLY, I'm quite sure he travelled to Scadrial because Warbraker is inspired from Sazed's theological discussion with Clubs on the Dadradah religion. The Dadradah believed in one god (Endowment), they practiced art and studied color, hue and poetry. What's very interesting, if this is correct, is that their symbol was a wooden disk. Maybe Vo came to Scadrial to study different metals and how to input them into Nightblood. I'm not sure how this fits in the bigger timeline (Vo in warbreaker, old roshar, pre ascension scadrial).

Thirdly, if this is correct, then we can assume Vo traveled to many different worlds for his research. I am currently reading Elantris and will look for clues there.

In conclusion (with tinfoil hat on):

-Vo is a major worldhopper

-Nightblood is a work of art and might be the single most important weapon in the cosmere

-(possibly) Vo is the founder of the 17th shard

-(possibly) Vo is Hoid

[Yata he/him]

SECONDLY, I'm quite sure he travelled to Scadrial because Warbraker is inspired from Sazed's theological discussion with Clubs on the Dadradah religion. The Dadradah believed in one god (Endowment), they practiced art and studied color, hue and poetry. What's very interesting, if this is correct, is that their symbol was a wooden disk. Maybe Vo came to Scadrial to study different metals and how to input them into Nightblood. I'm not sure how this fits in the bigger timeline (Vo in warbreaker, old roshar, pre ascension scadrial).

I want just to remember that on Scadrial before the Rashek's Ascension there was the Worldbringer an organization with roots in a Wit Worldhopper we all know.

The relationship Dadradah-Nalthis could me made also without put in the middle Vo. I don't say that Vo couldn't be the origin of the information. Just he isn't needed to explain the similitudes.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Bear in mind, Returned only last a week without receiving a single breath to sustain them (or some other form of substitute Investiture) so Vo couldn't have Worldhopped himself (as he Returned on the trip to the mainland and received visions of the Five Iridescent Tones/Austre monks beliefs etc. etc.) 

 

WoB is that Nightblood is specifically "third generation", which implies he was based on the Sprenblades, not on the actual Honorblades, which might suggest it wasn't a Herald. Although, it's possible a Herald didn't think to replicate the Honorblades until the Spren did, studied how the Spren did it, and based the research on this dataset. Basically, anything is possible.

 

I took that as he is just the third kind of Invested Blade to appear, not so much that it was based on a Sprenblade. I'm leaning towards your second explanation 

 

 

SECONDLY, I'm quite sure he travelled to Scadrial because Warbraker is inspired from Sazed's theological discussion with Clubs on the Dadradah religion. The Dadradah believed in one god (Endowment), they practiced art and studied color, hue and poetry. What's very interesting, if this is correct, is that their symbol was a wooden disk. Maybe Vo came to Scadrial to study different metals and how to input them into Nightblood. I'm not sure how this fits in the bigger timeline (Vo in warbreaker, old roshar, pre ascension scadrial).

 

The first part is very interesting, so it makes me wonder what connection it might have. The second part I'm not quite grasping the relevance to Nalthis/Returned.

 

EDIT: spelling and grammar

Edited September 19, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Yata he/him]

 

Bear in mind, Returned only last a week without receiving a single breath to sustain them (or some other form of substitute Investiture) so Vo couldn't have Worldhopped himself (as he Returned on the trip to the mainland and received visions of the Five Iridescent Tones/Austre monks beliefs etc. etc.) 

 

Well He just need to gain some Breaths before and then lives with them. 50 Breaths could keep him alive for quite a (our) year.

[Corax]

Posting from my phone again, so I'll be brief...

Could Vo have been Derethil? I would need to go back and read about the islands Vo was said to be sailing from, but it could be interesting.

Also, Vo himself needen't personally have traveled to other worlds or, indeed, survived beyond his alloted week to have influences events on Roshar (and other places). All that would be necessary for that are his followers or friends to spread the word, as it were. Other rrew of the Wandersail, maybe. Or the woman who joined them.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

 

 

 

Well He just need to gain some Breaths before and then lives with them. 50 Breaths could keep him alive for quite a (our) year.

 

 

Forgot to add in my previous about how Vo died on the trip to the mainland due to not receiving breath (IIRC, they didn't know about Breaths/Awakening/Breath transferral back then). It was a few hundred years before the Manywar, and the Chadesh were new to the land so they might have only learnt about Awakening/Commands/Breaths in the decades preceding the Manywar).

 

 

Also, Vo himself needen't personally have traveled to other worlds or, indeed, survived beyond his alloted week to have influences events on Roshar (and other places). All that would be necessary for that are his followers or friends to spread the word, as it were. Other rrew of the Wandersail, maybe. Or the woman who joined them.

 

Oh i know, my post was just in response to anarchitect's. As I said before, until we have a more than a rough timeline, It's hard to make an accurate answer (but from what i can tell from what numbers we have, there is some credence for your theory Corax)

[Oudeis he/him]

SECONDLY, I'm quite sure he travelled to Scadrial because Warbraker is inspired from Sazed's theological discussion with Clubs on the Dadradah religion. The Dadradah believed in one god (Endowment), they practiced art and studied color, hue and poetry.

 

This is an enormous leap to make from the fact that it's a culture that thought color was holy. I'm not sure I agree that it's a viable theory, and I think it's way premature to say you're 'quite sure'.

 

I took that as he is just the third kind of Invested Blade to appear, not so much that it was based on a Sprenblade. I'm leaning towards your second explanation

 

Perhaps I'm taking the phase "generation" too seriously. If Sprenblades were based on Honorblades, and Nightblood was based on Honorblades, I'd personally categorize that as the same 'generation', as they're functionally cousins. But, who knows what Mr. Sanderson had in mind when he phrased it the way he did.

[Yata he/him]

Forgot to add in my previous about how Vo died on the trip to the mainland due to not receiving breath (IIRC, they didn't know about Breaths/Awakening/Breath transferral back then). It was a few hundred years before the Manywar, and the Chadesh were new to the land so they might have only learnt about Awakening/Commands/Breaths in the decades preceding the Manywar).

 

I don't think that Vo went to Roshar, but if He did, I had a theory about the Returned on Roshar. Maybe you will find it usefull.