Spoiler: New Purelake reading Info.

[Shardlet he/him]

Doesn't there have to be an Almighty for there to be Heralds of the Almighty? Unless he's going to be a Herald of Cultivation, I suppose.

 

Anyway, I think Dalinar's role, if it's not being a KR, is probably more like Nohadon's. Bringing the Surgebinders together, reforming the Knights Radiant, preparing the world for the Desolation and such. His arc seem similar to what we know of Nohadon to me.

 

For the first part, see my previous post.  For the second:

 

I agree that Dalinar has some definite parallels to Nohadon.  But, I think many on the forums here make slippery slope assumptions about Nohadon.  What we know about him is that he was a famous ancient king (nearly prehistoric since the Way of Kings is one of the oldest books in known existence on Roshar) who was a great unifier.  He lived (at the latest) at the time of the last desolation.  He first brought factions to heel before developing ideals of leadership (I believe this to be the source of much of the assumptions).  He lamented that other bonding spren were not as discerning as honorspren. 

 

I really have a hard time imagining that the KR were developed so late in the game.  Also, though Nohadon developed ideals of leadership and codes of conduct, I see nothing to specifically tie him to the KR and their ideals.  Further, how could Nohadon as a normal mortal human have established the KR power-ups as each radiant reached the next ideal?  Radiants appear to have clearly existed during the desolations.  We see that in Starfalls where the radiants speak of an impending desolation.

 

I think too many, too soon, assume that Nohadon was the originator of the KR.   

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

He lived (at the latest) at the time of the last desolation. 

 

That was probably only a few Desolations in.  That vision Dalinar had of him is by the earliest chronological scene in the book.  Then Starfalls, then the Prelude.  There weren't any Knights Radiants before Nohadon, just Surgebinders.  The Prelude, on the other hand, did happen during the Last Desolation, when the Knights Radiants were already well established.

[Shardlet he/him]

There weren't any Knights Radiants before Nohadon, just Surgebinders. 

 

I am not sure how you established the chronology you presented for the storm visions.  It is not the order they were presented in the books.  Of course, that is clearly not a a chronological order since Dalinar had the Feverstone Keep vision before he had the Nohadon vision.  Clearly Nohadaon (at the time of a desolation) predated the Recreance.  Beyond that, I have seen no evidence to establish any other chronology.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Shardlet

[hoser he/him]

I agree that the Heralds could only lead the KR in the run up and during a desolation, but I completely reject the the idea that the KR weren't formed until after the last desolation. 

Noone is saying that the heralds weren't formed until after the last desolation.  That is directly contradicted by the Prelude.  As I remember, the vision w/Nohadon was post- a not-last desolation.  The point is that the Radiants didn't seem to exist at the time of Nohadon's vision (which must have been before the Prelude).  If the Radiants were involved in the creation of Urithiru and Nohadon really walked from Abamabar to Urithiru, then the Radiants must have been founded during his lifetime.  Based on the Prelude, I believe that the Heralds returned to be tortured immediately following desolations, so they wouldn't have been around.  My sense is that desolations were separated by more than a single lifetime, otherwise people would have been entirely wiped out.  So the Heralds would not have returned during Nohadon's lifetime. 

 

Of course, maybe Nohadon didn't really write "The Way of Kings."

[Meg]

I am not sure how you established the chronology you presented for the storm visions.  It is not the order they were presented in the books.  Of course, that is clearly not a a chronological order since Dalinar had the Feverstone Keep vision before he had the Nohadon vision.  Clearly Nohadaon (at the time of a desolation) predated the Recreance.  Beyond that, I have seen noe evidence to establish any other chronology.

 

 

I'm not Cheese, but maybe she has set the Desolation-vision at the beginning and not (only) at the end because of this:

 

No, wait. He frowned, ... I have seen this place before. In the first of my visions,so many months ago.

 

(TWoK, Ch. 75)

 

 

This might imply that Dalinar thought his last vision (the last vision we see in TWoK) is the same as his first vision.

 

 

If the Radiants were involved in the creation of Urithiru and Nohadon really walked from Abamabar to Urithiru, then the Radiants must have been founded during his lifetime. 

 

I've never had the idea that the Radiants "were involved in the creation of Urithiru." How did you come to this thought?

 

If this would be right, then your conclusion is convincing.

 

(Hopefully I don't sound harsh.)

[hoser he/him]

I've never had the idea that the Radiants "were involved in the creation of Urithiru." How did you come to this thought?

During the last Highstorm, I had this weird vision ...

 

Do you think it predated them? 

 

They are the only ones who seem to have used it.  Before Nohadon, there didn't even seem to be the Silver Kingdoms. 

 

There are a bunch of quotes in Windrunner's thread here.  What is your thought?

[Gloom he/him]

Here's my take on Nohadon. I'm not going to try to convince anyone it's accurate, I'm just putting it out there.

 

Surgebinders existed before he organized them. They may have even had orders. These orders may not be the orders we know now, and there may have been dozens of them. What I think Nohadon did was unite the orders into a cohesive group with a central command structure. He consulted members of the orders, brought them together, negotiated between them, possibly got them all on board with the same program and either had them work together to create Urithiru, or helped them come to an agreement where all orders would share it as a central location from which to operate. He learned of the ideals favored by the spren who empower the Surgebinders, and created laws by which the Knights Radiant would operate. When everything was stabilized, he wrote a book called The Way of Kings.

 

He may have had extensive contact with the Heralds during the desolation, since he was a king, and as a king was someone they would coordinate through. This, along with the decimation of his homeland, may have been what inspired him to take the disparate groups of Surgebinders and form them into a cohesive fighting force later known as the Knights Radiant. If Urithiru was soulcast into existence in a combined effort by the Knight Radiants Soulcasters, would that be considered to be built by the hands of no man?

Edited October 5, 2013 by Gloom

[Meg]

During the last Highstorm, I had this weird vision ...

 

 

 

Do you think it predated them? 

 

Yes, but it's a gut feeling, I have no evidence for it, I think Urithiru already existed when Nohadon lived (and wasn't built in this time).

 

 

They are the only ones who seem to have used it.  Before Nohadon, there didn't even seem to be the Silver Kingdoms.   ...   What is your thought?

 

Also I believe that the Silver Kingdoms came later (I have the idea that each order of KR was located in or kind of responsible for one of the Silver Kingdoms). Somewhere was written that in Urithiru where the ten thrones of the ten Kings of the ten Silver Kingdoms. (Jasnah said this to Shallan: “Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world.”). So may be the leaders of the KR-orders were those kings. *speculating day* And Jasnah's quote also says that not only the KR were settled in Urithiru. I'm sure there's some "normal" folk everywhere where nobles are.

[The Rangress]

So, nobody interested that Adolin might be wearing a woman's Shardplate?

[Natans he/him]

So, nobody interested that Adolin might be wearing a woman's Shardplate?

 

LOL

 

Ok, let's be frank, Adolin coment that he asked some girls if he was more beutiful that the king and he saying that liked do design "fashion looks" is kind a giveaway. He is metrosexual ,if his shardlate was used by a fashionable Radian the wouldn't mind if she was a woman, after all styleis everything  =)

 

Just joking don't be mad with me=)

[Looter he/him]

So ... Dalinar turns. Away from a red-glowing Radiant, about to use powers that would reveal connections between Surges and Orders.

I hate Dalinar now.

 

Yeah Seriously one of the most evil spoilers ever.  I was happy to hear the info but at such a terrible price.  I hope Navani slaps him for me.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

damnation it Dalinar...  He also looked away when all the darkeyed soldiers were claiming Shardblades for themselves during the Recreance, leaving us with only the secondhand comments about eye colors changing.  Dude would have settled so many of arguments if he only didn't keep turning away from plot-relevant details.

[Refero he/him]

He must bow to the Will of Adonalsium

Sanderson

[karaokeang she/her]

Have we found a recording of the extended version?  I would really like to hear it. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Have we found a recording of the extended version?  I would really like to hear it. 

 

Unfortunately no.  I think he only read the extended version once and no one (that we know of) was able to get a recording of it. Hopefully he'll do it again soon...

[Looter he/him]

Still no recorded extended version out there? Man I am kicking myself more often do not recording this.

[Aether he/him]

This somewhat supports my idea that Dalinar is being prepared to be more than a KR.  I think he may be being prepared as a replacement Herald.

 

If we're going to get really technical, Dalinar is already a herald. A herald is defined as "a person who announces important news". Given that Dalinar is shown these visions in the first place, and even directly told to re-establish the Knights Radiant, one could go as far as to describe him as a Herald of the Almighty (though dead).

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Argent he/him]

I think this is a fruitless thought exercise - Shardlet was pretty clear in what he meant with "replacement Herald." Next thing we'll be arguing that everyone on Roshar is a Shardbearer, because the spheres they carry (bear) contain a piece (shard) of a gem...

[Shardlet he/him]

If we're going to get really technical, Dalinar is already a herald. A herald is defined as "a person who announces important news". Given that Dalinar is shown these visions in the first place, and even directly told to re-establish the Knights Radiant, one could go as far as to describe him as a Herald of the Almighty (though dead).

 

On top of which, note the difference: herald v. Herald.  The capitalization was intentional and critical in identifying that I meant one of the Ten Heralds of the Almighty. 

[Aether he/him]

On top of which, note the difference: herald v. Herald.  The capitalization was intentional and critical in identifying that I meant one of the Ten Heralds of the Almighty. 

Relax, I get that. 'Twas just a futile attempt at being funny on my part. And yes, though he can technically be described as a herald, or even Herald, whether he gets any bonus powers at all (except normal surge powers) is still up for question.

 

Next thing we'll be arguing that everyone on Roshar is a Shardbearer, because the spheres they carry (bear) contain a piece (shard) of a gem...

And damnation you for stealing my thunder. I was just about to suggest that!

Edited October 30, 2013 by Aether

[Dros]

If what the nine Heralds did meant they broke the Oathpact, does it mean they are no longer bound to the cycles of Damnation and Desolation? I'm not convinced they're native to Roshar. Their immortality might be a result of where they come from. It could be the Shard that created them decided her/his people would be immortal.

 

I wish I could find the quotes but my recollection is Brandon has described the SA as a story primarily about ten angelic beings who have gone insane in various ways, and has mentioned that the KR are not the center of the story and he wouldn't be getting too far into them. I believe at least one of those comments comes from before he published WoK, so it's possible he has changed the focus of his story. But if that still holds it might be that the replacement of the last Heralds is the main focus the story or the Herlads coming back from the "bottom". 

 

I'll keep trying to find those quotes.

 

EDIT: Here's one from Brandon's site...interestingly enough, he called it the Oathshards series, hmmmmm:

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/tor-proposal-part-four/

 

THE WAY OF KINGS (Book one of the Oathshards Series.)

KINGS was the book I was working on when Moshe first called me to buy ELANTRIS. While we were in contract negotiations, he asked to read a bit of my current work. I sent him KINGS, and he decided he wanted to purchase it as well. I don’t think, however, that he knew what he was getting into.

The OATHSHARDS is a massive war epic centering around ten angelic beings who have been driven insane—each in a slightly different way—by millennia spent protecting, fighting for, and dying for mankind. The first book, THE WAY OF KINGS, follows six separate viewpoint characters (one of them an immortal) during a time when the three peninsulas are thrown into a massive war. It is an intensive character piece coming in at over 300,000 words, and can be quite brutal with its characters.

It still does the things I do well—it has several original magic systems (though magic isn’t a focus in the first book.) It has a very interesting setting (which is one of its strong points) and has an array of interesting characters from all walks of life. (One a young peasant soldier, one a middle-aged sister to the king, one a battle-hardened nobleman general, one an honor-bound assassin serving an evil master, one a young lady-in-waiting, and the final one being an immortal protector of mankind who is slowly breaking beneath the pressure of his station.) The central theme of the book is that of leadership, and each of the six viewpoint characters are defined in one way or another by how they lead others.

KINGS has a lot going for it. It’s the kind of story that people remember—it has a grand scope, meaningful characters, and an expansive plot that would have to cover at least five books. However, I don’t know that it’s the best thing for my career right now. The book needs a lot of work before it could be published—at its current length, it would have to be cut into two pieces or slashed by a third in order to work. I also have to do some serious revisions to the plot. I like how all of the characters work, but I worry that the book is too slow (even for me) at the beginning as I establish six viewpoints and six separate plots. I need to find a way to combine some of the plotting so that several viewpoints can work on the same problems.

I think this series could really make an impact on the genre. However, it would take far more work than MISTBORN to get to a publishable level. Perhaps it would be best for me to publish a few books like MISTBORN or ELANTRIS before I do something this ambitious.

 

Edited November 11, 2013 by Dros

[Argent he/him]

Interesting. I now feel much better about my Fallen Heralds theory too.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Yeah that is one of the more helpful snippets I have ever read concerning Stormlight Archive. Thanks, Dros!

[cem he/him]

It's a very interesting article and all that, but... wow... I am glad Brandon didn't call the series Oathshards. The worst name ever.

[Natans he/him]

Ok, now I'm sold DARKNESS was a former Herald =)

 

Blackie, Drunk fool, and Vandal. Three very diferent kinds of madness, make perfect sense.

 

Poor Taln, I dread to think how much mental damaged you are, after you last vacation in damnation.

 

I gonna dig In BS site to see what I can find, maybe there is futher evidence in the old posts =)

 

PS: I really liked to see how much Sanderson matured as writer from the time when he wrote this to day. If you think about, if he keep getting better, by the time he publish the last SA book he gonna write the best fantasy book in history =)

Edited December 11, 2013 by Natans